Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[JDough]

I know I am not alone when I say I am here another day thinking about Abby and Libby. No matter what the sequence of events may be, justice for these girls is what I want most. Their families have suffered enough. It's time for someone to listen to their conscience.

 

[SMK777]

I know I am not alone when I say I am here another day thinking about Abby and Libby. No matter what the sequence of events may be, justice for these girls is what I want most. Their families have suffered enough. It's time for someone to listen to their conscience.

Yes, really hoping & praying that an arrest comes in the NEAR future, and that this case is resolved before it hits year #4 in Feb. 2021.

 

[somequestions]

Yes during one of LEs interviews they stated the girls crossed the creek but it’s been so long since that’s been debated, I no longer recall which interview. LE also knows the murders occurred very soon after Libby captured the killer on video.

“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

I did not realize LE actually wrote the following next to the press release of the second sketch:

"This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered."

I used to think the second sketch and the video were left up to interpretation.

The only way this case gets solved now is either the killer ends up doing it again and LE is able to capture them through some sort of linkage or someone is able to disregard the sketches and submit a tip based on the video.

I do not think the investigation is headed in the right direction and the information LE received to compile this second sketch is bad information. In my opinion, the man in the video looks nothing like the man from the second sketch. They are not even close.

I think this case is taking so long to solve because everyone is looking for the wrong person based off the wrong description from an eyewitness.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

If we ignore the very few facts that we know in this case the number of possible scenarios we could paint would be infinite and endless. For me, I’m going to embrace those few facts to at least cut the possible theories down to a few hundred thousand.

 

[SMK777]

The only way this case gets solved now is either the killer ends up doing it again and LE is able to capture them through some sort of linkage or someone is able to disregard the sketches and submit a tip based on the video.

I do not think the investigation is headed in the right direction and the information LE received to compile this second sketch is bad information. In my opinion, the man in the video looks nothing like the man from the second sketch. They are not even close.

I have to agree with you on both points.

 

[SMK777]

If we ignore the very few facts that we know in this case the number of possible scenarios we could paint would be infinite and endless. For me, I’m going to embrace those few facts to at least cut the possible theories down to a few hundred thousand.

I would agree that endless speculation and spinning of infinite possible scenarios is counterproductive and that in general, LE facts should be the framework of discussion.

That said, I do agree with @somequestions that the 2nd sketch has always seemed terribly counter-intuitive and wrong. It’s just jarring and LE are human and can make errors.

At this point I’m just hoping for providence, that somehow this guy’s arrest is imminent and “meant to be” on some level.

 

[MistyWaters]

I did not realize LE actually wrote the following next to the press release of the second sketch:

"This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered."

I used to think the second sketch and the video were left up to interpretation.

The only way this case gets solved now is either the killer ends up doing it again and LE is able to capture them through some sort of linkage or someone is able to disregard the sketches and submit a tip based on the video.

I do not think the investigation is headed in the right direction and the information LE received to compile this second sketch is bad information. In my opinion, the man in the video looks nothing like the man from the second sketch. They are not even close.

I think this case is taking so long to solve because everyone is looking for the wrong person based off the wrong description from an eyewitness.

Yes I’d agree. Nobody witnessed the murders so at best the people who came forward a day or more later after the bodies were found reported an unknown person whom they sighted who might’ve been the killer. In hindsight, I wonder if LE regrets releasing the sketches, thereby limiting the killer to a likeness of what is possibly an inaccurate sketch or an innocent person, rather than just asking for tips from somebody who knows anything about who committed these murders based on the man in the photo/video and his voice.

The first sketch was released July, 2017 and LE mentioned tips were slowing down so I presume it was released to generate additional interest in the case. Then almost 2 years later after nothing panned out or LE realized they might be chasing shadows. So what’s Carter to do, April, 2019 a New Direction! Had he stood on the podium and announced “let’s just forget that sketch, we have information that leads us to believe the suspect could be much younger” I don’t think that would’ve been very well received, not much of a positive spin. Instead we observed a lot of dramatics “ha, you thought you had us fooled but we know who you are!” and everybody is excited, waiting for the announcement of the impending arrest to finally put the killer behind bars. Didn’t happen. What’s next? Surely no more sketches...

 

[Charlot123]

I'm sorry, Charlot, but based on the information that has been released (in addition to what we may have heard on the scanner transmissions), I just can't get on board with the idea of the girls being taken from the scene and later returned.

We know that sunset on 02/13/2017 was at 6:20pm (Sunrise and sunset times in Delphi, IN - February 2017). We also know that searches for the girls began around 4pm and continued throughout the night without ceasing. Kelsi reiterated this info numerous times in the Scene of the Crime podcasts, as well as the James Renner interviews. IMO, there is no way the perpetrator could have removed the girls for any period of time, and returned later (under darkness) with them. In my mind, this theory creates too many hazards for BG. The last thing he wanted was to fall down the hill and break a leg while trying to navigate the terrain and keep two young girls under his control.

[Edit by mod]

The shack comment has been debated on numerous occasions. While originally I believed the girls may have been taken to a run-down building somewhere near the scene, I absolutely have changed my mind about this. Especially after re-watching the James Renner interviews with Kelsi (

). I now believe any reference to the shack (made by DC) in the April PC was leading to the belief that BG has a bit if a conscience left. "There’s also a book that talks so well about evil, about death and about eternity," Carter said. "To the murderer, I believe you have just a little bit of a conscience left. And I can assure you that how you left (German and Williams) in that woods is not what they’re experiencing today." (Delphi murders: Why 'The Shack' film was mentioned in reference to killings)

*Reminder- specific information from the scanner thread may not be discussed here. Although, you can almost always find an approved source to bring the information in. Great resource for finding some additional info!

@JDough,

Since this forum is limiting “rumors”, I can not remember one of the earliest, the most obvious, one. But one is a fact, different dates of deaths on the monument. Even given this, I leave the right to think differently. Rumors disprovers generate more rumors, sorry, and LE, after unveiling YBG, is associated with the long line of ????? in my head.

Given this, I think that we have a decent recollection of girls’ lives till morning with banana pancakes. After that, I assume that they were driven to the trails, but see - with no witnesses to them being on the bridge, so maybe, it is a hearsay that they walked on it that day. Maybe they never crossed it. DC says something about turning left not right, but it is about the trails, so, who even knows?

• Today I think that one of them was killed at the CS and left there, and the other, taken somewhere else, where she was killed, and then brought back in the middle of the night. The fact that LE searched a house means it is a possibility. I can’t comment on whether volunteers searched at night, or not. My feeling is, they didn’t think the girls were dead, so they probably behaved accordingly. MOO.
  
• 
  But unless LE releases any information, we are stalled. People have discussed everything.

 

[Charlot123]

Excellent summation of what we know! Anyone who reads this and continues to think there's any real chance the girls were taken away and returned to the location later is just ignoring facts at this point.

I would add as a little extra validation to your post that in Scene of the Crime, Kelsi and Carter discuss his press conference comments on "The Shack" and he outright confirms, it's just a movie about murder and forgiveness that spoke to him emotionally. That's the reason he talked about it. It wasn't a clue or a coded message.

People discussing the case are issuing their opinions. Podcasts are not official statements, Fact: LE searched house on Bicycle bridge road, so after the murders, they assumed that the girls could be taken somewhere (close, I think).

 

[Andreee]

I would agree that endless speculation and spinning of infinite possible scenarios is counterproductive and that in general, LE facts should be the framework of discussion.

That said, I do agree with @somequestions that the 2nd sketch has always seemed terribly counter-intuitive and wrong. It’s just jarring and LE are human and can make errors.

At this point I’m just hoping for providence, that somehow this guy’s arrest is imminent and “meant to be” on some level.

I totally agree. The facts are the facts and are told to us by experienced LE specialists who have said outright that the girls were killed shortly after the video and that it happened where they were found and not moved. It is getting tiresome and nonproductive reading farfetched alternate theories about those few things that we do know for sure.

 

[MistyWaters]

People discussing the case are issuing their opinions. Podcasts are not official statements, Fact: LE searched house on Bicycle bridge road, so after the murders, they assumed that the girls could be taken somewhere (close, I think).

Why do you think the area taped off near the river has been over and over referred to by LE as the crime scene? The definition of a crime scene is where a crime took place - in this case it was a double homicide.

If forensic examiners had determined the bodies had been moved, then are you then suggesting the actual crime scene has never yet been found? If you believe this then you’d also have to believe LE just turned a blind eye...not a word, never asked for sightings of the abducted girls and their kidnapper or asking property owners to search their outbuildings for evidence of a murder occurring or somebody moving bodies, nothing.....even though the crime scene, the murder site, is where they have very best chance of collecting forensic evidence to determine who the killer is.

If the investigation was that botched that examiners couldn’t even tell the difference between a death scene and a relocated body scene, then it’s doubtful anyone would ever be convicted. While there may have been mistakes made, I don’t believe for a moment that level of utter incompetence existed.

 

[JnRyan]

Yes I’d agree. Nobody witnessed the murders so at best the people who came forward a day or more later after the bodies were found reported an unknown person whom they sighted who might’ve been the killer. In hindsight, I wonder if LE regrets releasing the sketches, thereby limiting the killer to a likeness of what is possibly an inaccurate sketch or an innocent person, rather than just asking for tips from somebody who knows anything about who committed these murders based on the man in the photo/video and his voice.

The first sketch was released July, 2017 and LE mentioned tips were slowing down so I presume it was released to generate additional interest in the case. Then almost 2 years later after nothing panned out or LE realized they might be chasing shadows. So what’s Carter to do, April, 2019 a New Direction! Had he stood on the podium and announced “let’s just forget that sketch, we have information that leads us to believe the suspect could be much younger” I don’t think that would’ve been very well received, not much of a positive spin. Instead we observed a lot of dramatics “ha, you thought you had us fooled but we know who you are!” and everybody is excited, waiting for the announcement of the impending arrest to finally put the killer behind bars. Didn’t happen. What’s next? Surely no more sketches...

I'm trying to think of cases where a sketch originated like this. Not of the person seen committing the act - by either the victim or a witness - or seen running from the scene, but just someone in the general area that no one can identify. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, just that it is probably not that common. (The Short family murders in Bassett, Virginia is the one similar I can think of and that case too has not been solved.)

I can't fault LE for attempting this because it required a lot of investigative work. And LE had an ideal setting to be able to do it. If a murder happened not far from a crowded, popular venue such as near Jackson Square in New Orleans this probably could not be done. Too many people. But here we have a rural setting with very few persons in attendance in the area.

But still we end up with not one product from this effort but two seemingly different likenesses in two sketches. And since, as you pointed out, no one witnessed the crime or even saw the girls with either of these persons prior, I do have some doubt as to whether one or both depicted in the sketches are nothing more than unidentified potential witnesses. The fact that neither has come forward - assuming both sketches do represent persons out on the trail that day - is suspicious, but not proof of guilt. They may not have paid attention to the news however unlikely I find that to be. If they are innocent, they may simply may not want to come forward because they believe there will be an implication that they are guilty. I'm not excusing them, because if they are innocent they may have a better description of a suspicious person. If that is true not coming forward is a selfish non-act.

 

[sunshineray]

Here's a post from August, 2019. At the time, for sure, LE says they think there was a creek crossing. My question is, at this juncture, do they STILL believe that to be so? I mean, LE totally changed course in the investigation, totally changed the sketch of the wanted man in this killing, so, what else may have changed?

If all the youtubers got it wrong, then why does this vid speak of a creek crossing? How different could a potential scenario be that would lead LE to say it's wrong to speculate they went down the hill, crossed the creek, and the were killed where they were found?

Doesn't make sense, and doesn't add up, my opinion.

@PaulaDC posted this video on the last thread, but I'm just getting around to watching it.

Anyway, around the 7:30 min mark, Riley talks about why they think BG is a local, or at least familiar with the area. I didn't transcribe it, but he basically said that the killer led the girls through a wooded area, from the bridge, down to a location, and that he had to have some knowledge of the river to know how deep it is, where to cross, where not to cross.

Does this pretty much clarify the question of how they got to the CS? To me it sounds like LE thinks he led them across the creek. Period. No fleeing, no recrossing the bridge, no getting into a car on the private drive.

Unless, they think he exited via crossing the creek. IDK.

It sounds like LE doesn't know everything about how it all went down, either, but IMO, this could be a significant piece of information we've been wanting. Maybe. The re-enactments wouldn't be wrong in theory, if he led them across the creek (and LE is lying when they say the re-enactments are wrong). Or like I said, maybe they think he left the scene via the creek. Riley did add that part in last. I'm flummoxed.

Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
MOO
TL4S, Aug 22, 2019 Report
#51 Like

I think that's exactly what that means...they came over the bridge, went down the hill, through the woods, going across the creek in the shallows to the crime scene. AJMO

 

[Yemelyan]

People discussing the case are issuing their opinions. Podcasts are not official statements, Fact: LE searched house on Bicycle bridge road, so after the murders, they assumed that the girls could be taken somewhere (close, I think).

Have you seen the warrant for the Bicycle Bridge Rd search? It would list the items they were looking for and the cause. Without knowing exactly what the warrant says, how do we know they were looking for, as you put it, a place the girls could have been taken? Might they have been looking for electronics or other physical items instead? I think it's wrong to assume that because a warrant was served they were looking for a separate crime scene.

 

[Yemelyan]

@JDough,

Since this forum is limiting “rumors”, I can not remember one of the earliest, the most obvious, one. But one is a fact, different dates of deaths on the monument. Even given this, I leave the right to think differently. Rumors disprovers generate more rumors, sorry, and LE, after unveiling YBG, is associated with the long line of ????? in my head.

The bolded part is NOT a fact. You can see pictures of their gravestones. They both list February 13th as the date of death. You may be thinking of their obituaries, but it's been well-established that families are allowed to choose whatever date they want. Obituaries are not official documents.

One official document we do have is the petition to seal the autopsy reports and if I'm not mistaken it specifies that they both died on February 13th.

 

[MistyWaters]

The bolded part is NOT a fact. You can see pictures of their gravestones. They both list February 13th as the date of death. You may be thinking of their obituaries, but it's been well-established that families are allowed to choose whatever date they want. Obituaries are not official documents.

One official document we do have is the petition to seal the autopsy reports and if I'm not mistaken it specifies that they both died on February 13th.

Yes, date of deaths - Feb 13th. This has been an established fact for almost 100 threads.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #47
post 7
....The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows: 1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana.....

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I would agree that endless speculation and spinning of infinite possible scenarios is counterproductive and that in general, LE facts should be the framework of discussion.

That said, I do agree with @somequestions that the 2nd sketch has always seemed terribly counter-intuitive and wrong. It’s just jarring and LE are human and can make errors.

At this point I’m just hoping for providence, that somehow this guy’s arrest is imminent and “meant to be” on some level.

I completely agree about that second sketch. Until LE puts it into context or explains why they think it’s relevant I think it hurts more than it helps.

 

[stattlich1]

I think that's exactly what that means...they came over the bridge, went down the hill, through the woods, going across the creek in the shallows to the crime scene. AJMO

If true, as you say, then are references by LE to podcasts being not even close to the truth simply a ruse? Or is there something else missing, something else in the podcasts that is not accurate? If so, then what? If not to question the sequence of events, then what would it be that is so wrong in the theories generally accepted and/or espoused?

Also, I see nothing incompatible with the 'facts' from LE, when they state the girls were killed 'minutes' after the video, AND the possibility they were driven from the bridge area the 10 or 12 minutes to the cemetery, forced down the hill from there and murdered where they were found.

What is the length of 'minutes' anyway? 2 minutes, or 20? It makes a difference, and I see no reference to a definitive timeline regarding such.

Yes, I understand it was stated by LE they crossed the creek. However, is it clear they crossed from bridge side to CS side? Or did they make a run for it from cemetery side? Or is LE wrong, as they seem to have been once before, in what I believe to be a rather BIG way, regarding the sketches of the perp(s)? Are they supposing an article of clothing in the creek, or a shoe on one side, or the other, is proof of crossing? Could such items not been thrown? We simply do. not. know.

I guess for me to be absolute in my belief that it was end of the bridge, down the embankment, through the wooded area, cross the creek to the murder scene, I'd almost have to have the evidence in hand, you know, the photographs of the footprints of all three indicating the fact. Maybe that evidence exists, it's just, I haven't seen it.

Sure I tend towards the 'standard' scenario in my belief, but so much doesn't jive in this case, I'm willing to explore, and listen to, alternative theories. For the record, all current theories have yet to nab the killer(s) yes?

It's sad, all this seeming evidence, video, voice recording, supposed tracking, references to dna, state, local, federal LE, the works.....yet no arrest.

All opinion and speculation on my part, for sure

 

[MistyWaters]

If true, as you say, then are references by LE to podcasts being not even close to the truth simply a ruse? Or is there something else missing, something else in the podcasts that is not accurate? If so, then what? If not to question the sequence of events, then what would it be that is so wrong in the theories generally accepted and/or espoused?

Also, I see nothing incompatible with the 'facts' from LE, when they state the girls were killed 'minutes' after the video, AND the possibility they were driven from the bridge area the 10 or 12 minutes to the cemetery, forced down the hill from there and murdered where they were found.

What is the length of 'minutes' anyway? 2 minutes, or 20? It makes a difference, and I see no reference to a definitive timeline regarding such.

Yes, I understand it was stated by LE they crossed the creek. However, is it clear they crossed from bridge side to CS side? Or did they make a run for it from cemetery side? Or is LE wrong, as they seem to have been once before, in what I believe to be a rather BIG way, regarding the sketches of the perp(s)? Are they supposing an article of clothing in the creek, or a shoe on one side, or the other, is proof of crossing? Could such items not been thrown? We simply do. not. know.

I guess for me to be absolute in my belief that it was end of the bridge, down the embankment, through the wooded area, cross the creek to the murder scene, I'd almost have to have the evidence in hand, you know, the photographs of the footprints of all three indicating the fact. Maybe that evidence exists, it's just, I haven't seen it.

Sure I tend towards the 'standard' scenario in my belief, but so much doesn't jive in this case, I'm willing to explore, and listen to, alternative theories. For the record, all current theories have yet to nab the killer(s) yes?

It's sad, all this seeming evidence, video, voice recording, supposed tracking, references to dna, state, local, federal LE, the works.....yet no arrest.

All opinion and speculation on my part, for sure

It was Youtube video re-enactments of the murders that was mentioned, not podcasts. I’d assume anyone so despicably inclined to make a video re-enacting the murders of two teens used actors and the scene began at the bridge and concluded with the murders. The cause of death have never been released and that could be what LE was referring to. Nor do we know why the girls were ordered “down the hill”. 100% guess work as to what occurred, so without even having any desire to watch any, I think it’s safe to say it’s not a wonder why Youtube murder re-enactments cannot be accurate. JMO

 

[somequestions]

Yes I’d agree. Nobody witnessed the murders so at best the people who came forward a day or more later after the bodies were found reported an unknown person whom they sighted who might’ve been the killer. In hindsight, I wonder if LE regrets releasing the sketches, thereby limiting the killer to a likeness of what is possibly an inaccurate sketch or an innocent person, rather than just asking for tips from somebody who knows anything about who committed these murders based on the man in the photo/video and his voice.

The first sketch was released July, 2017 and LE mentioned tips were slowing down so I presume it was released to generate additional interest in the case. Then almost 2 years later after nothing panned out or LE realized they might be chasing shadows. So what’s Carter to do, April, 2019 a New Direction! Had he stood on the podium and announced “let’s just forget that sketch, we have information that leads us to believe the suspect could be much younger” I don’t think that would’ve been very well received, not much of a positive spin. Instead we observed a lot of dramatics “ha, you thought you had us fooled but we know who you are!” and everybody is excited, waiting for the announcement of the impending arrest to finally put the killer behind bars. Didn’t happen. What’s next? Surely no more sketches...

For all anyone knows, LE could be correct about their second sketch. It is only my opinion that they are wrong. Until you know something with 100% certainty, no one can say for sure.

I can understand why LE did what they did, but it is hard to agree with it because the second sketch looks so different from the man in the video(in my opinion). I am sure LE would probably argue that there have been other cases with video that are also still unresolved even with video evidence.

So is the second sketch correct? It is your opinion. The part that is so concerning is that the families could be going down the wrong path for years and never realize they were looking for the wrong person.

I have always thought the "missing piece" to solving this case is simply to find the person responsible. A sketch is not a photograph, but when the video you do have is blurry to the point you cannot make an identification, won't people use the sketch as the reference for the man on the bridge everyone is looking for?