Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[chaz]

I


I submitted the thought to the tip line in case there's a connection. It's probably too far-fetched for them but you never know. At least it's outside the box. I think there's something we're missing. I don't even remember how I stumbled into this. I might have been searching gold deposits or something and seen the little pickaxes on the map. When I clicked the pickax marker the coordinates came up. I remembered those from a map somebody posted since I brought the coordinates up on google earth to study the terrain. I am not sure why I think it but there's something at or near the location that factors in. It could be the alum/mineral potential. It rattled me a little when I noticed the coordinate similarity. I just can't quite connect it.

We can't post any information on here but this site may be usefull?
Beacon - Carroll County, IN - Map

 

[Ravenmoon]

You are raising some excellent points.
I tend to believe the Perp is at the higher end of the age range because he apparently wasn't clued in to the cellphone.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Interesting, but I feel him to be on the younger side .
And I also think that his knowledge of how easy it is to track a cell phone played into his choice NOT to carry it out with him.
Also, I remember that a highly specialized team was called in to try and retrieve information from the phone.
If the phone had been in perfect condition, there would be NO need for the team to be called.
I am GUESSING that either he threw into the water OR made an attempt to destroy it.

AMOO

 

[stattlich1]

I was involved with subdivision and land development at one time. It is through that experience that I found that trees actually make a poor sound barrier. In fact, it is a myth that trees and/or wooded areas are effective in reducing sound.

This is why you see concrete and/or other material used in barriers along highways and thoroughfares, as they are much more effective at blocking noise, along with earth embankments.

IMO, RL, had he been home, would STILL likely not have heard much, as a result of the difference in elevation between his home and where the girls were found.

I too, as stated prior, believe BG to be younger, possibly less than 30 years old.

 

[MistyWaters]

I was involved with subdivision and land development at one time. It is through that experience that I found that trees actually make a poor sound barrier. In fact, it is a myth that trees and/or wooded areas are effective in reducing sound.

This is why you see concrete and/or other material used in barriers along highways and thoroughfares, as they are much more effective at blocking noise, along with earth embankments.

IMO, RL, had he been home, would STILL likely not have heard much, as a result of the difference in elevation between his home and where the girls were found.

I too, as stated prior, believe BG to be younger, possibly less than 30 years old.

I imagine the killer to be younger as well, perhaps in his early 20s with a background similar to Austin Sigg.

Evidence details twisted path that led Austin Sigg to Jessica Ridgeway – The Denver Post

 

[Trebor5591]

This is interesting. From what I understand, aluminum deposit is for future prospectors, and when I googled “aluminum in Indiana”, I found nothing. Gypsum, lime, yes, aluminum, no.

It might be a tiny, non commercial, deposit, or something more serious. Anyhow, the land bearing this deposit would cost something, one assumes.

It would be interesting to find out whose land the deposit is on. What if it belongs to RL? Then any outrage on his territory could have been an attempt to make an old man sell his land?

I compared the two locations on Google earth and they appear to be approximately 1 mile apart.

"Alum" may not be an abbreviation for "aluminum". It may mean Alum, which is "a colorless astringent compound that is a hydrated double sulfate of aluminum and potassium, used in solution medicinally and in dyeing and tanning. "

I remember as a kid there was a bottle of Alum powder in my chemistry set.

 

[somequestions]

Interesting, but I feel him to be on the younger side .
And I also think that his knowledge of how easy it is to track a cell phone played into his choice NOT to carry it out with him.
Also, I remember that a highly specialized team was called in to try and retrieve information from the phone.
If the phone had been in perfect condition, there would be NO need for the team to be called.
I am GUESSING that either he threw into the water OR made an attempt to destroy it.

AMOO

I think he is an older man in his 50's or 60's in some type of transient occupation like truck driver. He certainly looks older in the video. This person looks like a man with a face that has fuller cheeks than what the sketches depict.

I would agree if this case happened again that 99% of the time it has to be a younger man who is local to the Delphi, Indiana area. Statistics regarding criminal behavior and locational analysis would support that theory. If there were no video, I would certainly agree with that profile. There would be no reason not to agree with that profile.

I have always thought there is a possibility that this case may end up turning statistical analysis upside down. But until the day comes where an arrest is made and the full story known, I agree that the best thing is to trust that the police know what they are doing in this investigation. Every day that passes though, makes me wonder if the LE investigation will end up being right.

 

[Marzipan]

I think he is an older man in his 50's or 60's in some type of transient occupation like truck driver. He certainly looks older in the video. This person looks like a man with a face that has fuller cheeks than what the sketches depict.

I would agree if this case happened again that 99% of the time it has to be a younger man who is local to the Delphi, Indiana area. Statistics regarding criminal behavior and locational analysis would support that theory. If there were no video, I would certainly agree with that profile. There would be no reason not to agree with that profile.

I have always thought there is a possibility that this case may end up turning statistical analysis upside down. But until the day comes where an arrest is made and the full story known, I agree that the best thing is to trust that the police know what they are doing in this investigation. Every day that passes though, makes me wonder if the LE investigation will end up being right.

I have seen (online) at least one possible POI who looks like BG and is on the younger side.
Question: Is it still true, in smart phone era, that the camera adds 10 pounds?

 

[rosesfromangels]

I have seen (online) at least one possible POI who looks like BG and is on the younger side.
Question: Is it still true, in smart phone era, that the camera adds 10 pounds?

Photos can be very deceiving depending on how you are posing, and the objects around you. But in general, digital photos are a good representation of actual size and dimension.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[pillywiggin]

I imagine the killer to be younger as well, perhaps in his early 20s with a background similar to Austin Sigg.

Evidence details twisted path that led Austin Sigg to Jessica Ridgeway – The Denver Post

I have considered this as well. What would have happened in the Jessica Ridgeway case if Sigg's mother had not cooperated with the police?

 

[Yemelyan]

I imagine the killer to be younger as well, perhaps in his early 20s with a background similar to Austin Sigg.

Evidence details twisted path that led Austin Sigg to Jessica Ridgeway – The Denver Post

When/if BG is caught, I would venture to say he will be a very similar type of offender. (I'm not sure on age though I do think he'll be younger than 35.) But that article was great in that it showed the stalking/hunting behavior of these predators.

I read a book written by an FBI agent who specializes in child abduction cases and he said in reference to Austin Sigg that Sigg believed he was going to be sent to a treatment center in the near future (probably because he believed he might get caught for his previous attack on a jogger) so that precipitated his search for a victim, which turned out to be Jessica Ridgway. I think something like this will also be found to apply to the Delphi killer. There will likely be some sort of stressor (job loss, bankruptcy, impending eviction, breakup) that popped up in BG's life immediately prior to the attack on Abby and Libby, especially if it was his first murder. I have no doubt that when LE is looking at potential suspects, they have their eye out for this precipitating event that led to him crossing over from fantasy to action.

 

[rosesfromangels]

What a horrible article, but very educational. Yes, I could see a similar type Perp in this case. I give the mother respect for doing the right thing. Let's hope that BG's mother grows a conscience and does the same.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Charlot123]

You know, how Colorado police is held to high standard by me? Thank you @MistyWaters, here is the part that is bothersome


“Still, investigators were missing the final link. An early result showed Sigg’s DNA did not match the samples taken from Jessica and the jogger. During his interview with police, Sigg repeatedly asked about his DNA, and detectives asked whether anyone had helped him.

The Colorado Bureau of Investigation tested hundreds of DNA samples obtained by swabbing the cheeks of men in the neighborhood.

They sent back empty envelopes labeled with the names of those who had submitted the samples — an empty envelope meant the DNA did not match samples from Jessica or the jogger.

Sigg’s envelope had come back empty, too.

But hours into Sigg’s interview, investigators learned that his sample had been lost in a batch and hadn’t yet been tested.

They ordered an immediate test and received confirmation: Sigg’s DNA matched the sample found on the jogger, Jessica’s water bottle and her remains.”

I imagine the killer to be younger as well, perhaps in his early 20s with a background similar to Austin Sigg.

Evidence details twisted path that led Austin Sigg to Jessica Ridgeway – The

So, I wonder. If very good CBI still nearly lost the murderer because of a mistake, probably, at a technician level, how do we know that ISP has not messed up the whole DNA part? Just because a technician was high or lazy, or something equally distinguished. Massachusetts once had to throw out three years of substance abuse convictions because the chemist working at the lab was not even running the tests as needed.:

Massive drug lab scandal results in 20,000 convictions dropped

Somewhere, at the human level, there may be a mess

 

[Charlot123]

When/if BG is caught, I would venture to say he will be a very similar type of offender. (I'm not sure on age though I do think he'll be younger than 35.) But that article was great in that it showed the stalking/hunting behavior of these predators.

I read a book written by an FBI agent who specializes in child abduction cases and he said in reference to Austin Sigg that Sigg believed he was going to be sent to a treatment center in the near future (probably because he believed he might get caught for his previous attack on a jogger) so that precipitated his search for a victim, which turned out to be Jessica Ridgway. I think something like this will also be found to apply to the Delphi killer. There will likely be some sort of stressor (job loss, bankruptcy, impending eviction, breakup) that popped up in BG's life immediately prior to the attack on Abby and Libby, especially if it was his first murder. I have no doubt that when LE is looking at potential suspects, they have their eye out for this precipitating event that led to him crossing over from fantasy to action.

The precipitating event is some psychosis. Sadly, we know very little about human brain, and I don’t want to discuss the condition that it seems Austin Sigg has. However, how many kids read criminal books about a pathologist solving cases, and want to be pathologists? How many view these morbid dismemberment photos and are OK? But in one person, these interests would become pathological.

Likewise, imaginary world. Some people would transform it into books (I view Rowling and Steven King good examples), and in others, it becomes morbid, sadistic and dangerous. And yet in a very few, it spills into reality. Why? We don’t know.

Take the case of James Bulger. I believe Thompson was initially considered more dangerous (and the instigator). He seemed creepy. I know what they say - there are some kids that give me creeps, too. But I also know that it is impossible to predict human behavior, that these kids might grow into normal adults, and someone else will be a sadistic criminal.

Somehow, Thompson is living in a stable partnership now, and Venables is constantly in trouble. Why? Circumstances, or genes?

 

[Charlot123]

What a horrible article, but very educational. Yes, I could see a similar type Perp in this case. I give the mother respect for doing the right thing. Let's hope that BG's mother grows a conscience and does the same.

Amateur opinion and speculation

We cannot rely on the conscience of the mothers of wives. (Some could be mentally ill, too). The police needs to do its job, and if they made a mistake, happens, be unafraid to openly admit and start anew. The problem the way I see it is ISP is concealing everything, and in the meantime, there are two huge unresolved cases hanging on them, Flora and Delphi, and nothing is moving on. (In this situation, the scandal with KF looks extremely bad). ISP absolutely need to do a lot of work on improving PR and image, and maybe it might need opening up, somewhat.

 

[Yemelyan]

The precipitating event is some psychosis.

Snipped by me.

This is not what I was talking about. I meant there will likely be an actual proximate stressor, probably an event like a job loss or divorce, that bumped up the stalking, or as some offenders call it, "research," into a victim.

I'm not talking about "why people kill," BG was already on that track. I'm not talking about any existing emotional or psychological problems (I guarantee you BG has a whole host of them that have followed him for most of his life, they may be well hidden however). I'm talking about that particular day, there was a reason he took the opportunity when he saw it IMO.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

You know, how Colorado police is held to high standard by me? Thank you @MistyWaters, here is the part that is bothersome


“Still, investigators were missing the final link. An early result showed Sigg’s DNA did not match the samples taken from Jessica and the jogger. During his interview with police, Sigg repeatedly asked about his DNA, and detectives asked whether anyone had helped him.

The Colorado Bureau of Investigation tested hundreds of DNA samples obtained by swabbing the cheeks of men in the neighborhood.

They sent back empty envelopes labeled with the names of those who had submitted the samples — an empty envelope meant the DNA did not match samples from Jessica or the jogger.

Sigg’s envelope had come back empty, too.

But hours into Sigg’s interview, investigators learned that his sample had been lost in a batch and hadn’t yet been tested.

They ordered an immediate test and received confirmation: Sigg’s DNA matched the sample found on the jogger, Jessica’s water bottle and h




So, I wonder. If very good CBI still nearly lost the murderer because of a mistake, probably, at a technician level, how do we know that ISP has not messed up the whole DNA part? Just because a technician was high or lazy, or something equally distinguished. Massachusetts once had to throw out three years of substance abuse convictions because the chemist working at the lab was not even running the tests as needed.:

Massive drug lab scandal results in 20,000 convictions dropped

Somewhere, at the human level, there may be a mess

The part of the article on Sigg that jumped out at me is about two weeks after the murder “...a friend of Mindy Sigg’s(killer’s mother) called the FBI.....The woman recognized a wooden cross that was found with Jessica’s body.”
So apparently the police had released some crime scene information which included a picture of this cross...and...someone recognized it and called in and helped solve the case. Within two weeks they did this. Three years plus in the Delphi case that appears to be floundering and absolutely nothing has been released. I think there is a very good chance they someone would recognize something from the Delphi crime scene. Something left behind or the way something was tied, something. If only...

 

[Yemelyan]

What a horrible article, but very educational. Yes, I could see a similar type Perp in this case. I give the mother respect for doing the right thing. Let's hope that BG's mother grows a conscience and does the same.

Amateur opinion and speculation

She did the right thing but the fact that when he told her he had something to tell her and she immediately guessed it had to do with Jessica Ridgeway...that's concerning. She might never have spoken up if circumstances played out differently.

Also note the development of signatures even in an offender so young. Cutting of hair, mutilation, etc. Anyone thinking "the Delphi case has signatures, it must be someone who has done this before/is older," needs to read this article. Thanks @MistyWaters for linking it here.

 

[Charlot123]

Snipped by me.

This is not what I was talking about. I meant there will likely be an actual proximate stressor, probably an event like a job loss or divorce, that bumped up the stalking, or as some offenders call it, "research," into a victim.

I'm not talking about "why people kill," BG was already on that track. I'm not talking about any existing emotional or psychological problems (I guarantee you BG has a whole host of them that have followed him for most of his life, they may be well hidden however). I'm talking about that particular day, there was a reason he took the opportunity when he saw it IMO.

Maybe. So an FBI profiler (I hope) believes the predisposing factor for Austin Sigg was fear of being sent to the treatment center after the attack on the jogger.

OK. Probably. But something made him attack the jogger, right? An adult woman who managed to escape and hence, he decided to switch over to kids.

So what was the precipitating factor for that, first, attack? Does anyone know?

I think that while there may be events in AS life, looking at them from our normal position, divorce, loss of job, stress - leads us nowhere.

I think it comes from years of imaginary world, that becomes sadistic (probably Internet “helps”). And then this sadistic world grows on the real one, till one day, there is no boundary anymore.

(My family is always surprised by Steve Paddock. He had everything, right? A rich guy, a nice GF, what went wrong? No precipitating events, unless he lost everything in a casino, but doubtful, he had tons of property and seemed to have the guts to win. Genes, right? Out of five kids of his father, one got the combination that made him a criminal).

here; I think, “the usual” type plus untreated bipolar, but pay attention to child abuse on his disk. Las Vegas shooting: gunman was on losing streak and 'germophobic', police say | Las Vegas shooting | The Guardian

ETA: I read as many articles as i could about Paddock’s wins and losses, and seems he was in a regular statistical situation (won millions, but overall, ended with about 400K loss in 2015, for which he got compensations in the form of perks; it seems normal for a gambler, from what other gamblers told me; his property cost way more, though, so, not a poor man at all). My only explanation is, since he got most of his “highs’’ from the casino, a hypomanic episode created an urge for more “highs”, that he decided to get in the casino as well since it was his life. I think he probably did not get into child abuse because this where he somehow, morally, still drew the line; had he lived, that line would have eroded with time, too.

 

[Yemelyan]

Maybe. So an FBI profiler (I hope) believes the predisposing factor for Austin Sigg was fear of being sent to the treatment center after the attack on the jogger.

OK. Probably. But something made him attack the jogger, right? An adult woman who managed to escape and hence, he decided to switch over to kids.

So what was the precipitating factor for that, first, attack? Does anyone know?

I think that while there may be events in AS life, looking at them from our normal position, divorce, loss of job, stress - leads us nowhere.

I think it comes from years of imaginary world, that becomes sadistic (probably Internet “helps”). And then this sadistic world grows on the real one, till one day, there is no boundary anymore.

(My family is always surprised by Steve Paddock. He had everything, right? A rich guy, a nice GF, what went wrong? No precipitating events, unless he lost everything in a casino, but doubtful, he had tons of property and seemed to have the guts to win. Genes, right? Out of five kids of his father, one got the combination that made him a criminal).

here; I think, “the usual” type plus untreated bipolar, but pay attention to child abuse on his disk. Las Vegas shooting: gunman was on losing streak and 'germophobic', police say | Las Vegas shooting | The Guardian

ETA: I read as many articles as i could about Paddock’s wins and losses, and seems he was in a regular statistical situation (won millions, but overall, ended with about 400K loss in 2015, for which he got compensations in the form of perks; it seems normal for a gambler, from what other gamblers told me; his property cost way more, though, so, not a poor man at all). My only explanation is, since he got most of his “highs’’ from the casino, a hypomanic episode created an urge for more “highs”, that he decided to get in the casino as well since it was his life. I think he probably did not get into child abuse because this where he somehow, morally, still drew the line; had he lived, that line would have eroded with time, too.

To answer your question, according to the account by the FBI special agent that I read, Austin Sigg's two known attacks had different primary motivations. According to his confession, the first attack on the jogger was meant to be a sexual assault (it failed). Because he feared that his mother had figured out his involvement and would send him to a residential treatment center from which he would no longer be able to offend - he had previously been sent to treatment for possessing child sexual abuse materials - he decided to put his full fantasy into action before his life changed completely. So he escalated. He went out that day looking for a suitable victim, but not a specific one. This time he planned not just a sexual assault but a murder, and let's be 100% clear... he killed not to cover up his crime but because the murder itself was sexually exciting to him.

So with this knowledge of typical offender behavior, I can make some speculations about the Delphi murderer:
1. He likely has a history of violence against women or children from which he has escalated.
2. He likely had a life stressor that occurred just prior to the murders. I don't mean a psychological incident, I mean something like the loss of a job or an impending divorce. In the FBI document Serial Murders: Investigative Pathways there is a section that addresses these "stress-causing agents." They are particularly found prior to the first murder that an offender commits and the murder itself serves as a release for the offender. The three common ones listed in this document are: job loss, conflict with parents, or financial difficulties. I'd guess that when the identity of BG comes to light, we might even see one of these three. Note that these aren't excuses or even reasons for the murder. They are precipitating factors in the murder occuring at one particular time over another.

 

[Charlot123]

To answer your question, according to the account by the FBI special agent that I read, Austin Sigg's two known attacks had different primary motivations. According to his confession, the first attack on the jogger was meant to be a sexual assault (it failed). Because he feared that his mother had figured out his involvement and would send him to a residential treatment center from which he would no longer be able to offend - he had previously been sent to treatment for possessing child sexual abuse materials - he decided to put his full fantasy into action before his life changed completely. So he escalated. He went out that day looking for a suitable victim, but not a specific one. This time he planned not just a sexual assault but a murder, and let's be 100% clear... he killed not to cover up his crime but because the murder itself was sexually exciting to him.

So with this knowledge of typical offender behavior, I can make some speculations about the Delphi murderer:
1. He likely has a history of violence against women or children from which he has escalated.
2. He likely had a life stressor that occurred just prior to the murders. I don't mean a psychological incident, I mean something like the loss of a job or an impending divorce. In the FBI document Serial Murders: Investigative Pathways there is a section that addresses these "stress-causing agents." They are particularly found prior to the first murder that an offender commits and the murder itself serves as a release for the offender. The three common ones listed in this document are: job loss, conflict with parents, or financial difficulties. I'd guess that when the identity of BG comes to light, we might even see one of these three. Note that these aren't excuses or even reasons for the murder. They are precipitating factors in the murder occuring at one particular time over another.

True, there probably was a stressor. It is not the way to figure out who it was, though.

Any stress can be the precipitant, as stress usually causes insomnia, and insomnia itself can cause impulsive, or psychotic, behavior. But it is only the tip of the iceberg.

My theory is, it starts with imaginary world, and imaginary world has changed with the advent of the Internet. Before, people were writing diaries, stories, daydreaming, painting. Someone would see a troublesome writing (if anyone could see the diaries of the Columbine killers!) or a scary picture...

Now Internet has almost supplanted that old imaginary world. Gen Z is extremely visual. I don’t know if they “daydream” like the previous ones did, or if they just “see” it all online. I don’t know if blue light blockers could help, btw. I think Internet either gives rise to sadistic imagination, or merges with imaginary world, or something else.

My theory is, lots of people daydream, right? And some dreams can even be violent. But there is a moral line that defines what is “OK” and what is “NOT”, and also, the line defining dreams from reality. It is when that line slowly erodes, one day the imagination bursts into reality, merges with it.

But with the Internet, I think the process goes faster, or maybe, there is even no line. Because everything is so visual, maybe images become reality sooner?

ETA: what really interests me is why in some people (probably most teenagers have some erotic fantasies, and we don’t know what is in them) it never materializes, and in some, it breaks into unimaginable horror? What is the role of dissociation? If people feel almost “not themselves”, can they step over the line easier?

Also, about the “signatures”. It is probably something coming from the first time when it worked for them. A.S.’s cross was such a signature, but I doubt the cross came from the female jogger incident. Probably, from the Internet. Could the signatures be originating from the first time they got sexual release online? Can some of them be found online?

I think AS could also be consulted in the Delphi case.