Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[Ozoner]

I don't think so, but something they found/saw at the crime scene, which contradicted each other in a certain way. MOO

I haven't seen any evidence that would validate your statement. The crime scene may have had multiple signatures and may have even been odd, but nothing compares with a murderer being filmed by his victim moments before the murder—that has to be the "twist."

 

[Yemelyan]

bbm
I'm thinking in case Abby/Libby:
If a killer kills for a motive, he doesn't want anybody to know, because it would meet with incomprehension much more than every other motive, the (smart!) killer could choose a manner of doing the murder, that is pointing to false motivation/reasons. The killer can possibly "enjoy" his thrill-kill without having sexual motivation, but he stages the scene like there had been sexual motivation, like an artist, who is arranging a still life so-to-say or a gamer, who plays a strategy game. Well, that the killer has low esteem for the female sex, he can't deny, if his victims are always girls/women. But that he has no real sexual interest, he can cover up. It would lead police/analysts in a wrong direction over months/years. If the killer has a girlfriend/fiancee/wife, it would be another aspect, not getting onto the police/FBI poi-list very fast.
Or do you all here think, that isn't makeable, that there was no real sexual motivation, if it looked like that at the crime scene?

I would say that there are very, very few "thrill kills" where at the heart of it there was not a sexual motivation. This doesn't mean actual sexual assault occurred during the crime. The kill takes the place of the sexual fulfillment for, I would say, almost all of these killers in one way or another.

You almost seem to be describing an incel-like situation. Make no mistake, when incels lash out against women, it's not because of a lack of sexual desire. They are punishing women for their own sexual desire that is frustrated or unexpressed. When a certain type of offender gets mad at women (in general, or their wives, or their mothers, etc etc) they will hurt other women sexually in order to make themselves feel better. Rape and sexual murder are not about a man who just wants to have sex. They are always about rage at the heart of it and are committed by men who have associated sexual desire with their rage. IMO

 

[sleuth782]

Not a house guest, that would be too obvious, but connected to that property or the vacant property in some way.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Thinking through who would know he was absent and would continue to be absent from the propery. The ones that come to mind are (1) people in the legal system, look at court dockets, or were at the courthouse. (2) Direct contacts of RL who he told he'd be out that day, or a friend of Rons contacts. (3)People at RL's bar?

A thought just popped in my head. If not for the video, would we be able to so precisely pinpoint the timing of the murders? And if not, RLs alibi might not work, and he could be strongly suspected of the crime.

Suppose for a second someone at RLs bar (a regular) had a plan to murder on the bridge. In walks RL, and he begins drinking. Regular immediately heads out towards the trailhead. Plans to commit the murder on RLs property, hiding the girls. RL comes home. Next day they find the girls on RLs property and he says he was drinking then drove home. To some thatd sound unbelievable cause he just came from court. In this scenario, LE doesn't know exactly when the girls wenr missing, so RL becomes subject of immense scrutiny. His alibi, in this alternative world of no video, can't cover all the possible times the girls may have gone missing.

That is to say, had things gone slightly differently, RL may have been framed.

Obviously, this is just speculation about a single scenario.

 

[sleuth782]

Not a house guest, that would be too obvious, but connected to that property or the vacant property in some way.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Thinking through who would know he was absent and would continue to be absent from the propery. The ones that come to mind are (1) people in the legal system, look at court dockets, or were at the courthouse. (2) Direct contacts of RL who he told he'd be out that day, or a friend of Rons contacts. (3)People at RL's bar?

A thought just popped in my head. If not for the video, would we be able to so precisely pinpoint the timing of the murders? And if not, RLs alibi might not work, and he could be strongly suspected of the crime.

Suppose for a second someone at RLs bar (a regular) had a plan to murder on the bridge. In walks RL, and he begins drinking. Regular immediately heads out towards the trailhead. Plans to commit the murder on RLs property, hiding the girls. RL comes home. Next day they find the girls on RLs property and he says he was drinking then drove home. To some thatd sound unbelievable cause he just came from court. In this scenario, LE doesn't know exactly when the girls wenr missing, so RL becomes subject of immense scrutiny. His alibi, in this alternative world of no video, can't cover all the possible times the girls may have gone missing.

That is to say, had things gone slightly differently, RL may have been framed.

Obviously, this is just speculation about a single scenario.

 

[Sheila Terranova]

Isn’t it sexual imprinting? - but I guess, some people are more flexible in this area, and some are less. These days, the words like, “no one can change his sexual orientation” might be relative in some cases. I don’t know if it is good or bad, but theoretically, flexibility in the area of imprinting is evolutionary advantageous as it could increase gene diversity.

What the homicide detective was trying to say was that probably, serial killers were extremely rigid in the area of their sexual imprinting? Yes, and I agree. High-IQ and “organized”, or low-IQ and disorganized, they are probably rigid in their MO.

But TL spoke about some “twist” and never explained what it was. My explanation is more complicated than audio or video. We need to see when exactly TL said it. And what was available at that time. I think it was something different, using someone to “create” the scene, maybe. Up to this day LE can’t tell if it was one person or two, one wonders how “twisted” the plot was.

ETA: I wonder if a study counting the number of kids SKs leave has ever been done. Is it less than usual, more, or average?

I agree with you. Flexibility in imprinting is also interesting to me because it can show an almost unexplainable resilience from trauma, or the lack of resilience. ( I have PTSD from attacks, so I lack resilience.)
Imprinting can be as fascinating as it can be tragic.
Almost like ducklings following the first moving creature for the rest of their life, mistaking it for their mother;
One’s formative sexual experiences have been known to shape one’s life long sexual predilections. So should a father molest a child, the child might grow up to molest children to achieve sexual satisfaction. Horrific on so many levels, but particularly in this case, where the absolutely innocent children went to the trouble ,had the foresight, courage and wisdom, to record not just their murderer’s photographic video, but his voice as well. I hope to God their courage doing so results in an arrest.

 

[Yemelyan]

Thinking through who would know he was absent and would continue to be absent from the propery. The ones that come to mind are (1) people in the legal system, look at court dockets, or were at the courthouse. (2) Direct contacts of RL who he told he'd be out that day, or a friend of Rons contacts. (3)People at RL's bar?

A thought just popped in my head. If not for the video, would we be able to so precisely pinpoint the timing of the murders? And if not, RLs alibi might not work, and he could be strongly suspected of the crime.

Suppose for a second someone at RLs bar (a regular) had a plan to murder on the bridge. In walks RL, and he begins drinking. Regular immediately heads out towards the trailhead. Plans to commit the murder on RLs property, hiding the girls. RL comes home. Next day they find the girls on RLs property and he says he was drinking then drove home. To some thatd sound unbelievable cause he just came from court. In this scenario, LE doesn't know exactly when the girls wenr missing, so RL becomes subject of immense scrutiny. His alibi, in this alternative world of no video, can't cover all the possible times the girls may have gone missing.

That is to say, had things gone slightly differently, RL may have been framed.

Obviously, this is just speculation about a single scenario.

What's the source for RL having recently been in court prior to the murders? He was on probation for a DWI in 2014 if I'm not mistaken. Why would he have been back in court?

The only things I've heard about his whereabouts were that he went to Lafayette to buy tropical fish and that he drove to the Carroll County Waste Transfer Station and ate pizza while drinking alcohol (in violation of his probation) at a Pizza King restaurant. The latter incident being the reason he was later jailed.

Just trying to understand how people with access to the court system would know anything about his whereabouts the day the girls went missing or were found. Thanks.

 

[Rossymom]

[QUOTE="Yemelyan, post: 16298521, member: 200580"

The only things I've heard about his whereabouts were that he went to Lafayette to buy tropical fish and that he drove to the Carroll County Waste Transfer Station and ate pizza while drinking alcohol (in violation of his probation) at a Pizza King restaurant. The latter incident being the reason he was later jailed..[/QUOTE]
Hmmmmm, I had forgotten the Pizza King visit on that day. It Is the same Pizza King that is owned by a local who has his own thread on here. I’ve been here from day one and can barely remember this! It’s where many of us drive to get our Friday night pizza. I need more coffee.

 

[Yemelyan]

@Rossymom I don't think it's the same Pizza King. It's not in Flora, it's the one in Americus, Tippicanoe County. Unless that owner has both franchises?

See this article: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AhAJ&usg=AOvVaw1Hch2H9_Rgp8cqTZGsiAjt&ampcf=1

 

[Rossymom]

@Rossymom I don't think it's the same Pizza King. It's not in Flora, it's the one in Americus, Tippicanoe County. Unless that owner has both franchises?

See this article: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AhAJ&usg=AOvVaw1Hch2H9_Rgp8cqTZGsiAjt&ampcf=1

Thank you!

 

[Cryptic]

(My family is always surprised by Steve Paddock. He had everything, right? A rich guy, a nice GF, what went wrong? No precipitating events, unless he lost everything in a casino, but doubtful, he had tons of property and seemed to have the guts to win.

The FBI estimated SP's wealth at between 1.5-2.0 million dollars at the time of the rampage. This made him "have everything" by ordinary person standards, but not by casino whale standards. Rather, SP's wealth made him a junior whale- and that status was all SP seemed to value in life. This status, however, was slowly but steadily declining.

In the end, SP did not have the guts to win. Instead, he had the guts, video algorithim familiarity and liquid assets to well, lose slowly- but still lose in the end.

In their brief write up, the FBI related that SP was gradually losing the ability to fund his whale status.

In addition, I suspect that SP was also gradually losing the work discipline and business insights to generate substantial amounts of additional wealth. Thus, he only had what was in the tank- and the tank, despite periodic refills from winnings, was gradually going dry.

My only explanation is, since he got most of his “highs’’ from the casino, a hypomanic episode created an urge for more “highs”, that he decided to get in the casino as well since it was his life.

Good analysis.

As SP's finances dwindled to just marginal whale status, SP as you put it, was getting fewer "highs" and even fewer intense "highs"

The SP's "highs" were detailed by friends and family who noted that SP liked and expected the attention given to him by managers and that he enjoyed being waited on.

On some occasions, he had enough whale status to extend the attention to family as one admiring brother related that they were customarily personally greeted and brought "the biggest shrimp" by a restaurant manager. Likewise, casino employees noted that he was high maintenance, but strangely given the rampage, not truly exploitive.

 

[Charlot123]

Hi all,

Just was reading the thread about the Flora fires and had a bit of a revelation remembering another event that happened. Could it be these 3 things are connected?

(1) Nov. 2016 - fire in Flora (very near Delphi) kills 4 young girls. Listed as arson.

(2) Feb. 2017 - Libby and Abby (young girls) killed via different manner, after entering trails from trailhead near old CPS building. (Also of note...interest in a car parked near there, IIRC.)

If (1) and (2) connected, it is suggestive that the target (young girls) is more important than the MO.

(3) - fire at the old CPS building. (Anyone have more details on that? When did it burn and was arson suspected or confirmed?)

CPS officials sometimes make some painful decisions about separating children from their parents.

Could it be revenge for taking away someone's daughter(s)?

I've seen some suggest a connection between 2 of the 3 items above. But all 3 together puts together a more complete story.

You might be right. Perhaps it had just been abandoned and demolished, and my mind (incorrectly) mentally inserted that fire was the reason for that, even though there wasn't one. If it were not a fire, then the nexus to the CPS building isn't as strong.

Nonetheless, both crimes with similar targets in a similar place in a similar time period is still suspect. And it's not like Carroll County has 20 million people; the county population is around 20,000.

Another common thread --- and again, probably inconsequential --- between Flora and Delphi is each of the crimes happened near (~200 yards) from current or past railroad tracks. There is a historic case (early 20th century), though, of a SK along the railroad tracks. (Or at least a more recent book suggests that was the case.)

I remember reading about fire in it, for one reason - I thought it was a good way for the fire setter to destroy some files and documents. It was demolished later, I understand. But I can’t find anything about it.

 

[Charlot123]

I don't think so, but something they found/saw at the crime scene, which contradicted each other in a certain way. MOO

He said it was something he, a grown man, never saw in his practice. So, something shocking.

 

[Charlot123]

bbm
I'm thinking in case Abby/Libby:
If a killer kills for a motive, he doesn't want anybody to know, because it would meet with incomprehension much more than every other motive, the (smart!) killer could choose a manner of doing the murder, that is pointing to false motivation/reasons. The killer can possibly "enjoy" his thrill-kill without having sexual motivation, but he stages the scene like there had been sexual motivation, like an artist, who is arranging a still life so-to-say or a gamer, who plays a strategy game. Well, that the killer has low esteem for the female sex, he can't deny, if his victims are always girls/women. But that he has no real sexual interest, he can cover up. It would lead police/analysts in a wrong direction over months/years. If the killer has a girlfriend/fiancee/wife, it would be another aspect, not getting onto the police/FBI poi-list very fast.
Or do you all here think, that isn't makeable, that there was no real sexual motivation, if it looked like that at the crime scene?

I think it is makeable.

Let us think of a real-life twist.

Imagine a child of a SK who was never caught but who’d sometimes take his son on his rampages because ...they do it (see Gary Ridgeway). Assuming the kid was young, asleep, an alibi.

Now the kid has grown up and himself, does not get the high from the kills. Maybe he gets his kicks from young women, or has to use paid sex, because he’s married, but from kills, no. But suddenly he feels he needs to kill to eliminate the witness, and the witness is a teenager. Won’t he stage it like he saw his father (long dead now, and never caught) do?

Just one of many scenarios. If he witnessed someone enjoying thrill kill, he knows how to reconstruct it. And if indeed it was an older man who was never caught but had different signatures, seeing them again might make police go nuts trying to explain things.

 

[MistyWaters]

What's the source for RL having recently been in court prior to the murders? He was on probation for a DWI in 2014 if I'm not mistaken. Why would he have been back in court?

The only things I've heard about his whereabouts were that he went to Lafayette to buy tropical fish and that he drove to the Carroll County Waste Transfer Station and ate pizza while drinking alcohol (in violation of his probation) at a Pizza King restaurant. The latter incident being the reason he was later jailed.

Just trying to understand how people with access to the court system would know anything about his whereabouts the day the girls went missing or were found. Thanks.

And without searching through these threads or googling media reports, I’m almost certain the beer at the Pizza King incident was a few days after the murders, not the same day. Somewhere there’s a video of an interview with a female friend who more or less defended RL saying (my words) due to the emotional toil, he fell off the wagon and drove after drinking following the shock of the bodies discovered on his property. It wouldn’t be a surprise to me if he became the centre of attention at the pizza place and much the way of alcoholics, recovered or not, self control regarding alcohol is often weak during stressful times.

 

[Yemelyan]

And without searching through these threads or googling media reports, I’m almost certain the beer at the Pizza King incident was a few days after the murders, not the same day. Somewhere there’s a video of an interview with a female friend who more or less defended RL saying (my words) due to the emotional toil, he fell off the wagon and drove after drinking following the shock of the bodies discovered on his property. It wouldn’t be a surprise to me if he became the centre of attention at the pizza place and much the way of alcoholics, recovered or not, self control regarding alcohol is often weak during stressful times.

Makes sense if so. That Fox59 article I linked above only says that he drove to the dump the day the girls went missing and that his visit to the restaurant where alcohol was consumed "coincided" with the murders.

 

[MistyWaters]

He said it was something he, a grown man, never saw in his practice. So, something shocking.

Just to add some context though, Carroll County has experienced few murders so Leazenby’s 30 years of experience isn’t quite the same as a detective working in the homicide squad in a large urban centre. The mayor who was appointed deputy prosecutor remarked in one of the media reports prior to this case, the last murder he recalled there was when he was in high school. Clearly Delphi had never experienced anything close to, not one but two innocent teens found murdered on the nature trails as the typical murder in small-town-anywhere is a result of domestic violence and the spouse/partner is quickly arrested.

 

[MistyWaters]

Makes sense if so. That Fox59 article I linked above only says that he drove to the dump the day the girls went missing and that his visit to the restaurant where alcohol was consumed "coincided" with the murders.

Here’s a reference -

Delphi: Logan pleads guilty to traffic violation
“Logan admitted to driving on a suspended license to the Carroll County Transfer Station on February 13, the day Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, went missing. He also admitted to drinking an alcoholic beverage at Pizza King in Americus on February 27.“

 

[Justice101]

still following...

 

[Yellow Rose]

I sure wish they’d give an update and at least let the public know that tips are or are not still coming in.

 

[MistyWaters]

I sure wish they’d give an update and at least let the public know that tips are or are not still coming in.

I could be wrong but I suspect all homicide investigations have slowed to a snail’s pace due the COVID-19 pandemic.

Otherwise we could be optimistic the silence is a result of progress.