Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Awsi Dooger said:
They could have raced into that backyard within 10-12 seconds...long before Bridge Guy reached the end of the bridge. He would not have followed.
Click to expand...
It’s horrifying that although they sensed danger, these 2 girls obviously still never thought they were in serious, mortal danger.

You just want to rewind to that point in time, and have them run.
 
SMK777 said:
It’s horrifying that although they sensed danger, these 2 girls obviously still never thought they were in serious, mortal danger.

You just want to rewind to that point in time, and have them run.
Click to expand...

I think that is one of the things that gets me about this :( Those poor girls. I know I would have probably done the same things they did as a young 14 year old girl when sensing a threat. They would have had no way of knowing what he would do. I also think about the what if.. the what if they separated. What if one ran. Ugh :/
 
chaz said:
Another retirement.
34 year veteran of Indiana State Police retiring from Lafayette Post
Click to expand...
BBM

"The homicides of Abby Williams and Libby German struck a personal note with Riley.

"I was there at the crime scene," he explained. "I saw what most people will never get to see, hopefully. It will stay in my mind for a long time. I raised two girls myself, and just seeing those young girls being killed in the way they were, it just one of those things. It will stay with me."

Yet another who speaks to how horrific the manner of death was for these two young girls. Former CC Prosecutor Ives saying multiple signatures were present and ISP Carter just looking and sounding destroyed by the way the girls were left. Even Sherriff Leazenby's "twist", they all speak to these crimes being a planned event, don't you think? The victims might have been picked by opportunity but the murder(s) was pre-planned.
 
Charlot123 said:
no. He will not confess. He will simply cross to the other side. But in contrast to others, I think he is not a coward, and this way out will be straightforward. He just wants to enjoy what he can enjoy.

P.S. he should have done what my friend did when he reached 40 and realized he was leading a dual life. He went to another country and ...had the courage to be who he wanted to be, to start anew, to be happy. But for this, one has to believe that what one took as the only truth, may be not. That one takes for “heroism” may not be the only heroism, and that destroying everything around does not change oneself.
Click to expand...
In my mind, any way you look at it, killing two sweet and innocent girls is a cowardly, and dastardly act. No matter the thought processes that brought him there that day to kill, IMO the Delphi killer, in contrast or not to anyone, is a coward and a monster.
 
sunshineray said:
BBM

"The homicides of Abby Williams and Libby German struck a personal note with Riley.

"I was there at the crime scene," he explained. "I saw what most people will never get to see, hopefully. It will stay in my mind for a long time. I raised two girls myself, and just seeing those young girls being killed in the way they were, it just one of those things. It will stay with me."

Yet another who speaks to how horrific the manner of death was for these two young girls. Former CC Prosecutor Ives saying multiple signatures were present and ISP Carter just looking and sounding destroyed by the way the girls were left. Even Sherriff Leazenby's "twist", they all speak to these crimes being a planned event, don't you think? The victims might have been picked by opportunity but the murder(s) was pre-planned.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree. As previously speculated multiple times, BG had a gun, knife or some type of weapon to temporarily "guide" them to a planned area where they were then bound.
The specific way they were bound, the materials used, the items that were left or planted in this area and the way the girls were left are the gruesome & unfathomable details.
 
Last edited:
It makes you wonder if these signature details have shown themselves in other unsolved murders.

I just recently watched the two-part show on Samuel Little. With him it was more the consistent strangulation and absence of rape or the bloodletting of other injuries. He was very aware not to leave fingerprints, hair etc... That was actually part of his signature, the lack of other physical injuries besides strangulation.

SL preyed on women who were in a high risk profession or had impaired mental capacity. I wonder if BG is a repeat offender and his high risk targets are the very young and inexperienced.

RIP Abby and Libby. Praying for justice.
 
sunshineray said:
It makes you wonder if these signature details have shown themselves in other unsolved murders.

I just recently watched the two-part show on Samuel Little. With him it was more the consistent strangulation and absence of rape or the bloodletting of other injuries. He was very aware not to leave fingerprints, hair etc... That was actually part of his signature, the lack of other physical injuries besides strangulation.
Click to expand...

As to the part I bolded.... there was, of course, a reason that he was nicknamed the "Stroke and Choke" killer. In case anyone was thinking that because he didn't technically rape his victims, sexual assault wasn't a component of his murders...it definitely was.

Samuel Little received sexual gratification from the experience of strangling women to the point where only he could decide if they lived or died. His signatures revealed this deep psychological need. Absolutely disgusting and typical of a certain kind of murderer who is obsessed with the power he doesn't have in his actual life. It would not surprise me at all to learn that the Delphi killer is exactly the same type of offender.
 
sunshineray said:
It makes you wonder if these signature details have shown themselves in other unsolved murders.

I just recently watched the two-part show on Samuel Little. With him it was more the consistent strangulation and absence of rape or the bloodletting of other injuries. He was very aware not to leave fingerprints, hair etc... That was actually part of his signature, the lack of other physical injuries besides strangulation.

SL preyed on women who were in a high risk profession or had impaired mental capacity. I wonder if BG is a repeat offender and his high risk targets are the very young and inexperienced.

RIP Abby and Libby. Praying for justice.
Click to expand...

I watched the recent docu on SL on the ID Channel. I agree, looks like he left very little evidence in the vast majority of those cases.

MOO about BG is he went after A&L because of their age(s), they were there alone/nobody else was there except BG and them, and he knew there was a high likelihood he could corner them at the end of the bridge, again taking into consideration their age(s).

He saw them right after they were dropped off, that's the only valid explanation for the initial "contact". The contact was most likely from a short distance, and he knew nobody else was there, after all he'd been lurking for a considerable amount of time. Which tells me, too, this was not his first time there, he may have done "dry runs" in the past.

The age group of the girls also complicated the search, after seeing them initially I can guarantee that all went through his mind, in fact he may have planned that well beforehand. Juveniles=no vehicle parked there. A&L missing=nobody could figure out where they went later in that afternoon, all they knew was they had gotten on to the bridge per the SnapChat images.

I think BG had all of that mapped out in his head well beforehand, and he waited until there was a mild Winter day during the work week that juveniles had off from school.

JMO
 
Last edited:
Hello fellow WSers,
Still here searching for justice for Abby and Libby. I’m currently going down the rabbit hole of unsolved murders in Carroll County and surrounding counties. If anyone has already done the deep dive on cold cases or unsolved murders of young girls or young women in this area, please let me know. I’m currently working on the assumption that nobody wakes up and murders two girls out of the blue. I’m thinking there has to be cases that are unsolved in Carroll County that are similar or even unrelated. Currently looking for unsolved murders from 1980-2017. Please forgive me if this has been discussed at length already. Let today be the day!
 
sunshineray said:
In my mind, any way you look at it, killing two sweet and innocent girls is a cowardly, and dastardly act. No matter the thought processes that brought him there that day to kill, IMO the Delphi killer, in contrast or not to anyone, is a coward and a monster.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily a coward. One of the world's worst serial killers, Gilles de Rais, was a famous soldier, the marechal, and a horrible sadistic pedophile. How these things live together in the same person, I don't know.
 
Serdavc said:
Hello fellow WSers,
Still here searching for justice for Abby and Libby. I’m currently going down the rabbit hole of unsolved murders in Carroll County and surrounding counties. If anyone has already done the deep dive on cold cases or unsolved murders of young girls or young women in this area, please let me know. I’m currently working on the assumption that nobody wakes up and murders two girls out of the blue. I’m thinking there has to be cases that are unsolved in Carroll County that are similar or even unrelated. Currently looking for unsolved murders from 1980-2017. Please forgive me if this has been discussed at length already. Let today be the day!
Click to expand...

Welcome to the thread!
Nothing really stands out in this Indiana Cold Case map. Carroll County is within the green area.

ISP: Cold Cases by County
 
Charlot123 said:
This is why. And then, LE would be, “why this? What is this for? Is it a signature?”

I think they were very inexperienced village cops at the beginning. Maybe messed up for that reason. But I do think they grew up, maybe because they are constantly thinking about their case.
Click to expand...

Hello Charlot,
I am back . Happily, gratefully.
It is important to remember that it is not only"village cops" involved here.
The ISP and FBI have been involved almost from the start.

My opinions and my observations.
 
Yemelyan said:
As to the part I bolded.... there was, of course, a reason that he was nicknamed the "Stroke and Choke" killer. In case anyone was thinking that because he didn't technically rape his victims, sexual assault wasn't a component of his murders...it definitely was.

Samuel Little received sexual gratification from the experience of strangling women to the point where only he could decide if they lived or died. His signatures revealed this deep psychological need. Absolutely disgusting and typical of a certain kind of murderer who is obsessed with the power he doesn't have in his actual life. It would not surprise me at all to learn that the Delphi killer is exactly the same type of offender.
Click to expand...
I by no means meant to infer that how SL killed didn't have a sexual nature to it. It certainly did and even years later, at the age of 79, just speaking of his victims still gave him sexual gratification. Many of the women he killed actually went to dinner with him first and then had consensual sex before he strangled them.

As far as the Delphi killer, I can't decide whether he's a repeat offender well versed and confident like SL or a lucky not to be caught first time killer who planned out his actions thoroughly before he acted. I think BG left very little biological evidence at the scene.
 
sunshineray said:
As far as the Delphi killer, I can't decide whether he's a repeat offender well versed and confident like SL or a lucky not to be caught first time killer who planned out his actions thoroughly before he acted. I think BG left very little biological evidence at the scene.
Click to expand...

Snipped and bolded by me.

Before this case, I thought that most murder scenes yielded usable biological evidence from the offender and especially sexually motivated ones would always have some offender DNA of one type or another.

I recently tried to determine how many cases with characteristics similar to Delphi yielded usable DNA.

The closest I came was a study by Morton et al from 2014 about serial murder (which Delphi may not be). This was a study of 480 victims and it has some interesting facts:

When sexual motivation is involved in the murder (which they determined it was in slightly over 81% of the cases in the study), DNA was recovered in 29.2% of cases. That seems lower than expected but keep in mind victims were found in all sorts of conditions - inside homes or outside in the elements, after many months or the very next day, clothed and unclothed, years ago vs. with modern evidence collection techniques. So there were quite varying conditions for DNA retrieval. If the primary motivation for the killing was not sexual, DNA was found in just 2% of cases.

Now if you look at just those cases similar to Delphi where the victims were left by their murderer in the same place they were murdered, what pattern do you see? (Let's assume they were left where they were murdered based on what LE has told us so far - just to make a distinction between this type of recovery and ones where bodies are submerged in water or transported and dumped elsewhere.) According to the study, when offenders leave the body at the murder site (which was the most common scenario in the 480 victims in the study), the primary motivation was sexual in almost all cases and DNA was recovered in slightly less than half of the cases.

I think the Delphi killer lucked out, as many killers do. I don't think he made any great attempts to minimize biological evidence. I think the outdoor crime scene, with a heavy dew probable overnight and the creek nearby to dispose of evidence, played in his favor. MOO
 
Yemelyan said:
Snipped and bolded by me.

Before this case, I thought that most murder scenes yielded usable biological evidence from the offender and especially sexually motivated ones would always have some offender DNA of one type or another.

I recently tried to determine how many cases with characteristics similar to Delphi yielded usable DNA.

The closest I came was a study by Morton et al from 2014 about serial murder (which Delphi may not be). This was a study of 480 victims and it has some interesting facts:

When sexual motivation is involved in the murder (which they determined it was in slightly over 81% of the cases in the study), DNA was recovered in 29.2% of cases. That seems lower than expected but keep in mind victims were found in all sorts of conditions - inside homes or outside in the elements, after many months or the very next day, clothed and unclothed, years ago vs. with modern evidence collection techniques. So there were quite varying conditions for DNA retrieval. If the primary motivation for the killing was not sexual, DNA was found in just 2% of cases.

Now if you look at just those cases similar to Delphi where the victims were left by their murderer in the same place they were murdered, what pattern do you see? (Let's assume they were left where they were murdered based on what LE has told us so far - just to make a distinction between this type of recovery and ones where bodies are submerged in water or transported and dumped elsewhere.) According to the study, when offenders leave the body at the murder site (which was the most common scenario in the 480 victims in the study), the primary motivation was sexual in almost all cases and DNA was recovered in slightly less than half of the cases.

I think the Delphi killer lucked out, as many killers do. I don't think he made any great attempts to minimize biological evidence. I think the outdoor crime scene, with a heavy dew probable overnight and the creek nearby to dispose of evidence, played in his favor. MOO
Click to expand...

Very interesting!

Something else I’ve thought about, noticing how often genetic DNA testing and Parabon has been mentioned as a solution to also solving this case, much like it did by identifying the Golden State Killer. But his crimes occurred in the 70s and early 80s before DNA technology existed. The first successful prosecution using DNA in the US occurred in the late 80s.

So prior to the late 80s, it didn’t matter one iota to a sexual offender if he left a vast array of bodily fluids at a crime scene as he didn’t have the ability to foresee into the future. Blood type and fingerprints were about it. But surely sexual predators of today know all about DNA as it’s not a well-kept crime solving secret considering it’s a much talked about topic, on the news, TV shows, or published information.

I’d be certain the majority of today’s criminals do everything possible to avoid leaving their full DNA profile at a crime scene considering DNA used in criminal prosecutions has been happening for over 30 years. I could compare that to thieves and robbers figuring out it’s not a bad idea to cover their face because just maybe their actions are being captured by CCTV.....and how criminals change their ways if they think it’ll prevent their capture. JMO
 
MistyWaters said:
Very interesting!

Something else I’ve thought about, noticing how often genetic DNA testing and Parabon has been mentioned as a solution to also solving this case, much like it did by identifying the Golden State Killer. But his crimes occurred in the 70s and early 80s before DNA technology existed. The first successful prosecution using DNA in the US occurred in the late 80s.

So prior to the late 80s, it didn’t matter one iota to a sexual offender if he left a vast array of bodily fluids at a crime scene as he didn’t have the ability to foresee into the future. Blood type and fingerprints were about it. But surely sexual predators of today know all about DNA as it’s not a well-kept crime solving secret considering it’s a much talked about topic, on the news, TV shows, or published information.

I’d be certain the majority of today’s criminals do everything possible to avoid leaving their full DNA profile at a crime scene considering DNA used in criminal prosecutions has been happening for over 30 years. I could compare that to thieves and robbers figuring out it’s not a bad idea to cover their face because just maybe their actions are being captured by CCTV.....and how criminals change their ways if they think it’ll prevent their capture. JMO
Click to expand...

I was thinking of it. And then it got to me, today’s criminals are still leaving something that can help find them 30-40 years later. We just don’t know what it will be.

I think the worst thing is when the body is not found, or not all information is collected.

Because, come to think of it, Parabon is great, and Paul Hole is smart, but we owe most, no, Everything, to the people who, once upon a time, ordered the LE to collect and keep bodily fluids, and we owe even more to these unknown LE officers who managed to keep it all, and not break the chain of custody - for all these, darn, 30, 40, 50 years!

Which is the testimony to these unnamed LEOs of the past.

This is why what was collected at Delphi, and how it is kept, the work of ISP, of the coroners, the pathologists, the photographers, how they worked the crime scene, is important, even if they are sitting empty-handed today. It may be more than enough 20 years from now. As long as they did what they were trained to do in Police Academy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Staff online

Members online

... and 183 more.
Total: 4,615 (members: 184, guests: 4,431)

Online statistics

Members online
184
Guests online
4,431
Total visitors
4,615
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
592,464
Messages
17,969,349
Members
228,775
Latest member
Megs89
Back
Top