GUILTY UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, teaching asst, found deceased, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *teen arrested* #5

[Emmalt]

I’ve been on the Justice group and there have been some good points made as to why he couldn’t possibly have carried the whole job out himself but still no clear evidence to prove it . The ex hubby is getting a battering for his behaviour throughout this .
Due to the timescale I don’t think she got much further than Whittakers car park ....imo ...possibly bungled in to a vehicle . ...that would make sense for why they didn’t find her ? The page is starting to loose steam now as nothing new is coming to light . Until they find the fit bit , phone etc they’ve got nothing. The thing that concerns me is the lack of info regarding the devices ....they could tap in to fit bit data to find when her heart stopped etc and the timings but nothing . This case is far from closed I suspect .

She got further than Whittakers.. she was last seen on cctv at 4.06 at 256 Burnley road which is the block of houses before peel park ave. Could have been bungled into a car on peel park.. 3 cctv on there. 2 weren't working and 1 wa said motion sensor but only picked up cars so it's certainly a possibility she never made it to the coppice

 

[Emmalt]

I’ve been on the Justice group and there have been some good points made as to why he couldn’t possibly have carried the whole job out himself but still no clear evidence to prove it . The ex hubby is getting a battering for his behaviour throughout this .
Due to the timescale I don’t think she got much further than Whittakers car park ....imo ...possibly bungled in to a vehicle . ...that would make sense for why they didn’t find her ? The page is starting to loose steam now as nothing new is coming to light . Until they find the fit bit , phone etc they’ve got nothing. The thing that concerns me is the lack of info regarding the devices ....they could tap in to fit bit data to find when her heart stopped etc and the timings but nothing . This case is far from closed I suspect .

She got further than Whittakers.. she was last seen on cctv at 4.06 at 256 Burnley road which is the block of houses before peel park ave. Could have been bungled into a car on peel park.. 3 cctv on there. 2 weren't working and 1 was a motion sensor but only picked up cars so it never picked Lindsay up... it's certainly a possibility she never made it to the coppice

 

[Bootlace15]

Interesting

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Hi. I am a bit late to this, only just found this site. I found it because this case has had me hooked, puzzled and baffled. I have read through all I can find relating to this case, including all the comments on here.... There are a lot. And some interesting and valid points. I am still not getting this. Its still not adding up for me. Why was the defence so weak? Was there no psychological profiling done on the defendant? Why do we know so little about him? Surely the investigation would have looked more into his life and interests. I mean, I accept the evidence is pretty damning. But. And regardless of whether he is guilty I truly cannot understand how he could have been convicted of murder with such flimsy evidence tying him to the exact spot wherever that may be, how has all the evidence relating to the murder disappeared but his part of the crime he left his traces everywhere. Doesn't add up. How can the lad be found guilty because a person who may or may not have seen someone who may or may not have been him, who changed her evidence and can't even remember if she had her glasses on said it was him. The whole case seems completely off to me.
I realise I am very late to this so not expecting a reply. Just been very interested in finding these pages!

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Hi. I am a bit late to this, only just found this site. I found it because this case has had me hooked, puzzled and baffled. I have read through all I can find relating to this case, including all the comments on here.... There are a lot. And some interesting and valid points. I am still not getting this. Its still not adding up for me. Why was the defence so weak? Was there no psychological profiling done on the defendant? Why do we know so little about him? Surely the investigation would have looked more into his life and interests. I mean, I accept the evidence is pretty damning. But. And regardless of whether he is guilty I truly cannot understand how he could have been convicted of murder with such flimsy evidence tying him to the exact spot wherever that may be, how has all the evidence relating to the murder disappeared but his part of the crime he left his traces everywhere. Doesn't add up. How can the lad be found guilty because a person who may or may not have seen someone who may or may not have been him, who changed her evidence and can't even remember if she had her glasses on said it was him. The whole case seems completely off to me.
I realise I am very late to this so not expecting a reply. Just been very interested in finding these pages!

Welcome to Websleuths!

This case definitely created a lot of debate here.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Welcome to Websleuths!

This case definitely created a lot of debate here.

Thankyou
I still don't feel like this case should be over. I see the family are out and about promoting this social media group. I tried to join but they blocked me for some reason!
I hope they get an appeal simply so that he gets a fair trial and the family can have closure and full peace of mind that anyone and everyone involved in this tragedy are held accountable.

 

[Jeephead]

Hi. I am a bit late to this, only just found this site. I found it because this case has had me hooked, puzzled and baffled. I have read through all I can find relating to this case, including all the comments on here.... There are a lot. And some interesting and valid points. I am still not getting this. Its still not adding up for me. Why was the defence so weak? Was there no psychological profiling done on the defendant? Why do we know so little about him? Surely the investigation would have looked more into his life and interests. I mean, I accept the evidence is pretty damning. But. And regardless of whether he is guilty I truly cannot understand how he could have been convicted of murder with such flimsy evidence tying him to the exact spot wherever that may be, how has all the evidence relating to the murder disappeared but his part of the crime he left his traces everywhere. Doesn't add up. How can the lad be found guilty because a person who may or may not have seen someone who may or may not have been him, who changed her evidence and can't even remember if she had her glasses on said it was him. The whole case seems completely off to me.
I realise I am very late to this so not expecting a reply. Just been very interested in finding these pages!

My opinion would be that the defence didn’t use a psychological profile or other medical evidence because either it wouldn’t have been helpful or it may have been harmful to RM.

In the UK legal system you are innocent until proven guilty however, again my opinion, if you were a juror and had a person accused of murder who was recorded on video moving the body and had admitted it, mentally that burden of proof may shift to the accused having to prove he didn’t do it. Without a very good ‘alibi’ and being as helpful as possible to the police to find the real murderer I suspect a jury’s going to convict 999 out of a thousand times. His story required some huge leaps of faith to be believed.

 

[MissUnderstood]

I think RM did this on his own. There was nothing smart about the crime. This kid was not hiding. He pushed a dead body in a bin past people. No one really took notice. He sat on the bin in the grave yard. People saw that. He went back and forth with a ruck sack. He didn’t care about cctv or passers by. It was not anything smart he did to not be caught till so long after. There were times police were in the graveyard with a dog that missed her. That’s not the killer being smart. The made up story of the stranger.. not smart. Not saying we’re this apparent stranger left the body! Also not smart. I have zero doubt he did this, and did this alone.
all MOO of course.
If this was your family member murdered would you be thinking it wasn’t him?

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

My opinion would be that the defence didn’t use a psychological profile or other medical evidence because either it wouldn’t have been helpful or it may have been harmful to RM.

In the UK legal system you are innocent until proven guilty however, again my opinion, if you were a juror and had a person accused of murder who was recorded on video moving the body and had admitted it, mentally that burden of proof may shift to the accused having to prove he didn’t do it. Without a very good ‘alibi’ and being as helpful as possible to the police to find the real murderer I suspect a jury’s going to convict 999 out of a thousand times. His story required some huge leaps of faith to be believed.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Thankyou, really good points. And I know that should make sense, pretty compelling evidence around it. And if I were to make a guess, with my understanding of autism and complete lack of knowledge about the defendant, my suspicion would be that maybe it was a sexually motivated attack gone wrong (obviously a total assumption) but I still can't help but feel something is off. If I had been a juror on the case I could not have gone guilty to murder without absolute solid evidence, or at least more information about RMs character and even though it is difficult to place anybody else there, doesn't mean somebody else can't have been involved. Of course there may have been evidence I haven't seen or read
There are other things that don't add up but again, they are assumptions and I am filling the blanks so I won't offer those but I still feel so sad that maybe the full truth of what happened to this poor woman will never come out. I guess there's just that part of me thinking that someone else may have been involved, even if just to help dispose of evidence and if so, they are not being held accountable. Again, only assumptions but my instinct is screaming out on this one.

 

[JosieJo]

I've always been at odds with this case ... in theory the onus SHOULD have been on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt he killed her ...imo they definitely didn't do that.
What happened was the Jury were asked to decide whose story they believed...prosecution or defence ..i find this uncomfortable
Just "what if" and I know its a small "what if"..a boy with special needs made up a rediculous story regards a "stranger" which cost him a murder sentence

 

[Alyce]

Welcome to the new posters - always good to have more opinions and theories.

For those who have not seen this, here is our final Verdict Poll. I left it to run until the Friday as I wasn't expecting such a quick verdict, so the Jury were ahead of us by two days.

Interestingly, if we had been the Jury, then without the Judge asking for - and possibly getting - a majority verdict, there would have been a hung jury.

For anyone who doesn't feel like doing the calculations on a Sunday morning, the votes below translate as

Guilty of Murder 8
Guilty of Manslaughter 1
Not Guilty 3


.

Your Verdict
Poll closed Aug 14, 2020.

1. *
   Guilty of Murder
   41 vote(s)
   64.1%
2. Guilty of Manslaughter
   6 vote(s)
   9.4%
3. Not Guilty
   17 vote(s)
   26.6%

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

I've always been at odds with this case ... in theory the onus SHOULD have been on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt he killed her ...imo they definitely didn't do that.
What happened was the Jury were asked to decide whose story they believed...prosecution or defence ..i find this uncomfortable
Just "what if" and I know its a small "what if"..a boy with special needs made up a rediculous story regards a "stranger" which cost him a murder sentence

Too many what ifs for me. Whatever happened there are two things for me, there is not definitive resolution to cause of death and disposing of evidence and also, imp it was not a fair trial. I hope they request and win an appeal and I do hope the full truth is discovered so if anybody else played any part in this that they are also held accountable. And the full truth is outed. Dont feel this outcome was fair to LB and her family. Too many ifs and maybes

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Welcome to the new posters - always good to have more opinions and theories.

For those who have not seen this, here is our final Verdict Poll. I left it to run until the Friday as I wasn't expecting such a quick verdict, so the Jury were ahead of us by two days.

Interestingly, if we had been the Jury, then without the Judge asking for - and possibly getting - a majority verdict, there would have been a hung jury.

For anyone who doesn't feel like doing the calculations on a Sunday morning, the votes below translate as

Guilty of Murder 8
Guilty of Manslaughter 1
Not Guilty 3


.

Your Verdict
Poll closed Aug 14, 2020.

1. *
   Guilty of Murder
   41 vote(s)
   64.1%
2. Guilty of Manslaughter
   6 vote(s)
   9.4%
3. Not Guilty
   17 vote(s)
   26.6%

Thankyou
Very interesting.

If I had voted, I would have had to say not guilty. The sad thing is, not because of my thoughts on whether he did it or not... but based on evidence to show that... beyond all reasonable doubt. A fair trial to me should be based on evidence and not emotion. Fascinating case and incredibly heartbreaking too

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

I think RM did this on his own. There was nothing smart about the crime. This kid was not hiding. He pushed a dead body in a bin past people. No one really took notice. He sat on the bin in the grave yard. People saw that. He went back and forth with a ruck sack. He didn’t care about cctv or passers by. It was not anything smart he did to not be caught till so long after. There were times police were in the graveyard with a dog that missed her. That’s not the killer being smart. The made up story of the stranger.. not smart. Not saying we’re this apparent stranger left the body! Also not smart. I have zero doubt he did this, and did this alone.
all MOO of course.
If this was your family member murdered would you be thinking it wasn’t him?

I don't think any of it was smart either. Quite sick in fact. I think it's horrific. I still think whether he did or didn't do it there was not enough evidence to reach the verdict.

If it was my family member I would feel I wanted to know the exact circumstances of the death. I would also feel there was not enough evidence to reach that verdict and would want more evidence to ensure that no other parties were involved in any aspect of the case. For example why some evidence was never found?. .. Did someone help? I would want to be sure and that if there was any help to remove the evidence I would want them to be fully accountable for their part. I would not be fully satisfied by this outcome. Too many unanswered parts.

My feeling is he probably did it but a probably for me is not enough and concerns me re the integrity of the judicial system as the evidence was not imo beyond all reasonable doubt when considering all aspects of the case.
My opinion is only that and I fully respect others opinions but I still feel this wasn't a satisfactory outcome just due to the missing pieces.

 

[Roostercat]

I have broke my own rule and posted in this thread again!
I think this case has all been about filling in the blanks and speculating as to what did or did not happen. Whether this is a sound and just way of deciding a judicial outcome is questionable.
Logic and common sense based on some evidence could well point to RMP being guilty but could it also point to his innocence?
I was always comfortable with my belief that he was guilty but I have had some doubts in the past couple of weeks.

 

[sunflower22]

I have broke my own rule and posted in this thread again!
I think this case has all been about filling in the blanks and speculating as to what did or did not happen. Whether this is a sound and just way of deciding a judicial outcome is questionable.
Logic and common sense based on some evidence could well point to RMP being guilty but could it also point to his innocence?
I was always comfortable with my belief that he was guilty but I have had some doubts in the past couple of weeks.

what’s made you have doubts in last couple of weeks?

 

[Rosegold68]

hows his family getting on with their petition to free him i wonder!?

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

I have broke my own rule and posted in this thread again!
I think this case has all been about filling in the blanks and speculating as to what did or did not happen. Whether this is a sound and just way of deciding a judicial outcome is questionable.
Logic and common sense based on some evidence could well point to RMP being guilty but could it also point to his innocence?
I was always comfortable with my belief that he was guilty but I have had some doubts in the past couple of weeks.

Hi Roostercat, what has made you reconsider your thoughts?
It's really had me, this case, maybe because it's quite local to me. Still, even though it's hard to imagine there being anyone else involved, there is still a deep lodged feeling of uncertainty that won't shift

 

[Spender]

hows his family getting on with their petition to free him i wonder!?

About 30 people on each march , I would say 95% of them family members , the petition on Justice for Rocky is around 1,150 I think. Obviously there is a mixed reaction to it all and I would personally say the majority believe he murdered her . His Mam has written a background in to her son as you would expect it paints him as a good kid with a love of the outdoors and animals . Time is running out for the appeal unless some new evidence turns up . I feel this is unlikely and his conviction will stay .