Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[cujenn81]

I'm not convinced that BG planned to kill the girls in that specific location. I think it's just as likely that BG ordered the girls down the hill to get them under the bridge and/or anywhere else away from the trail, and then the girls ran.

I (personally) don't think BG planned to kill them in that specific location; I think he just got lucky.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Did I understand correctly that there were/are deer stands close in proximity to the Crime scene?

If so, who would have built them, and who would be maintaining them?

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[stattlich1]

In the woods you'll often find hunting stands in trees. They can be built by property owners, or by hunting friends of the property owners. Also, there are all sorts of easy to set up stands, portable stands, etc. I did read a couple years ago that there was a stand in the woods.

This killer, or killers, likely knew the terrain around that bridge and trails very well. He/They were familiar with the surroundings.

I've actually used deer trails when in thick brush, they are narrow, and go through some areas where one has to duck low to avoid branches, but for the most part provide a rudimentary path through thick, and I mean, thick underbrush. Most people never even saw one, and don't know they exist.

I was looking at the timeline a bit closer. It appears the killer(s) really didn't have a lot of time between confronting the girls on the bridge, and the known reports of others beginning to arrive in the area. Maybe 20 minutes? Give or take 5?

The killer could not have stayed around at the CS for any length of time if he was seen exiting the trails. Or, there were two involved.

I've stated on several occasions that I suspect the killer to have possibly parked in that cemetery. This appears to conflict with eyewitness account of a man seen on the trail exiting the area, unless, the man seen exiting the area is not the killer, or there were actually two people involved, one being a 'scout' of some sort.

Interesting to note, it appears one witness account is prior to the murders, and another is afterward.

Some of this thinking leads me to suspect a potential reason for the change in direction, and/or the change in sketch.

One question I have is how does LE definitively know the man pictured on the bridge is the killer? Or am I wrong in that they never said that? Could someone clarify for me? BG is obviously a suspect, but has LE actually stated he is known to be the killer in this case?

MOO.

 

[minazoe]

what about the cemetery?

listen I think he parked there because..FAST exit of the scene and it's not the first place anyone is going to look.

He was very prepared, the girls did not happen upon him doing something nefarious or anything like that. He is a pure psychopath and came equipped and ready to move in on his prey. I also think he was filming. ( this is based on some of the pictures).

he had no qualms about 2 girls being there...he swooped in and moved onto them in mere moments, all looking deceptivley casual and nonchalant as to not ruffle feathers.

to me, thesis a guy who listens to two way radios, spends a lot of time drifting around, probably has *advertiser censored* in his car, collects things like disguises and electronics, likes to go peeping possibly, broke into peoples homes as a kid, maybe he works at night somewhere.

I no longer think he is married, but as I said many moons ago I think his mother does his laundry because his jeans are creased. ( this is also old school country) as people don't do that anymore and you only see that in rural areas and down south now.

I think they have to go back and try to connect him with other crimes.

if the signatures have not been seen elsewhere could this have been a first? I don't know..maybe he went to greater lengths to conceal his other murders...or maybe he wanted to play games as psychopaths will.

mOO

 

[cujenn81]

In the woods you'll often find hunting stands in trees. They can be built by property owners, or by hunting friends of the property owners. Also, there are all sorts of easy to set up stands, portable stands, etc. I did read a couple years ago that there was a stand in the woods.

This killer, or killers, likely knew the terrain around that bridge and trails very well. He/They were familiar with the surroundings.

I've actually used deer trails when in thick brush, they are narrow, and go through some areas where one has to duck low to avoid branches, but for the most part provide a rudimentary path through thick, and I mean, thick underbrush. Most people never even saw one, and don't know they exist.

I was looking at the timeline a bit closer. It appears the killer(s) really didn't have a lot of time between confronting the girls on the bridge, and the known reports of others beginning to arrive in the area. Maybe 20 minutes? Give or take 5?

The killer could not have stayed around at the CS for any length of time if he was seen exiting the trails. Or, there were two involved.

I've stated on several occasions that I suspect the killer to have possibly parked in that cemetery. This appears to conflict with eyewitness account of a man seen on the trail exiting the area, unless, the man seen exiting the area is not the killer, or there were actually two people involved, one being a 'scout' of some sort.

Interesting to note, it appears one witness account is prior to the murders, and another is afterward.

Some of this thinking leads me to suspect a potential reason for the change in direction, and/or the change in sketch.

One question I have is how does LE definitively know the man pictured on the bridge is the killer? Or am I wrong in that they never said that? Could someone clarify for me? BG is obviously a suspect, but has LE actually stated he is known to be the killer in this case?

MOO.

LE has said they believe BG is the suspect based on additional audio that has never been released, and Sheriff Leazenby said the murders were not recorded. Based on this knowledge, my best guess is that the phone stopped recording when Derrick called Libby or she lost the phone somewhere in between the bridge and where the girls were found. I think LE is confident that BG is the suspect just based on whatever could be heard on the audio before the recording stopped.

 

[stattlich1]

LE has said they believe BG is the suspect based on additional audio that has never been released, and Sheriff Leazenby said the murders were not recorded. Based on this knowledge, my best guess is that the phone stopped recording when Derrick called Libby or she lost the phone somewhere in between the bridge and where the girls were found. I think LE is confident that BG is the suspect just based on whatever could be heard on the audio before the recording stopped.

If the murders were not recorded, but LE says the guy in the photo on the bridge is definitely the killer, how can that be?

 

[Yemelyan]

If the murders were not recorded, but LE says the guy in the photo on the bridge is definitely the killer, how can that be?

Maybe on the audio portion of the video he says he is going to harm or kill them?

Possibly he left clothing items of his own behind at the scene that exactly match what the man on the bridge is wearing?

 

[stattlich1]

Maybe on the audio portion of the video he says he is going to harm or kill them?

Possibly he left clothing items of his own behind at the scene that exactly match what the man on the bridge is wearing?

I appreciate your reply. I'm seriously trying to figure this one out. A threat to murder, for me, isn't proof that he actually committed the murders.

For that matter, having clothing of his at the scene, IMO, isn't actual proof either.

What I'm trying to say here is, there appears to be some evidence that leads LE to think the guy on the Bridge is the actual killer, and I'd like to explore how they may have come to that conclusion, in particular, in light of the fact that the murders are reported to NOT have been recorded.

I guess it could simply be that he is the last to be seen in close proximity to the girls, and the girls are murdered shortly thereafter....somewhat circumstantial in my opinion. However, could there be more?

So what is the actual link? Could it be recovered DNA from the bridge, or elsewhere, somehow definitively known by LE to be that of the killer, that matches recovered DNA from the murder weapon? Or some such connection?

The entire subject is quite interesting to me, thanks.

 

[Yemelyan]

I appreciate your reply. I'm seriously trying to figure this one out. A threat to murder, for me, isn't proof that he actually committed the murders.

Of course this is all speculation here, but...if someone made a recorded threat to assault the girls, and in less than an hour they were dead, considering the isolated circumstances of the trail (or let us say, at least not heavily traveled): what do you think the chances are that they happened upon a different, totally unrelated person who also wanted to harm them within that specific time frame and location?

The girls weren't drug dealers, gang members, sex workers - their risk level should have been quite low for the activity they were doing. They weren't in a position where you'd expect them to encounter even one violent incident that day, much less more than one.

So IF the recording includes a statement from BG with an intent to harm them, I don't see LE throwing their hands up and saying "there's just not enough proof to call this guy our suspect."

They won't have "proof," in all likelihood, until they are ready to arrest him. Whatever they do have on the recording, it's something that links him to the scene, and it's enough to call him the suspect.

 

[stattlich1]

what do you think the chances are that they happened upon a different, totally unrelated person who also wanted to harm them within that specific time frame and location?

Indeed, I speculate too. And I appreciate your input.

The chances of them coming upon another person that was working in collusion with BG2, I speculate slim, but possible. The chances of them coming upon another person totally unknown and unrelated to BG2, very unlikely, I don't think is the case here, but remotely possible.

So what do you think Yemelyan, do you speculate this killer acted alone? Are we looking at a serial killer, who had no prior contact with these girls, or their families, who never met them or knew them, and who simply seized the opportunity that day, yet is believed to be from Delphi, or have had spent significant time in Delphi, and is believed to be very familiar with the bridge and trails?

Indiana State Police also issued the following clarification about the two sketches:

• They are not the same person
• The person depicted in the originally released sketch is not presently a person of interest in this investigation
• The sketch released on April 22nd is representative of the face of the person captured in the video on Liberty German’s cell phone as he was walking on the high bridge
• The person in the sketch released April 22nd is described as having a youthful appearance, but could fall in the age range from his 20’s to late 30’s
• This person’s appearance could look different today if he has grown a mustache, beard or let his hair grow longer or cut his hair shorter than depicted in the sketch

ISP: Person in first Delphi sketch is not a person of interest in Libby & Abby's murders

 

[Yemelyan]

Indeed, I speculate too. And I appreciate your input.


So what do you think Yemelyan, do you speculate this killer acted alone? Are we looking at a serial killer, who had no prior contact with these girls, or their families, who never met them or knew them, and who simply seized the opportunity that day, yet is believed to be from Delphi, or have had spent significant time in Delphi, and is believed to be very familiar with the bridge and trails?

Snipped by me.

I honestly don't have enough information about the crime scene itself to have a really firm opinion on most of these questions but I can speak to probabilities.

If I had to lean one way or another, I'd speculate it's more likely than not that he did act alone; that his encounter with them was spontaneous and opportunistic but that he was prepared to commit a crime against someone that day if he found a suitable victim. I'd say at the least he has a history of violence against women and likely has sex offenses in his past, which he may never have been officially linked to. I don't have enough information to say whether he has murdered before but if this was a sexually oriented murder (which IMO it was) then he likely will again.

Without knowing why LE in this case seems so sure about his linkage to Delphi I can't really say much about that. Clearly they have info that pertains to this that they are keeping quiet. I will say that it's somewhat established doctrine that certain types of killers operate within geographic comfort zones that are normally delineated by their spheres of "normal" activity - work, etc. It's pretty rare that an offender would not have familiarity with either the site where he first contacted his victim or the site where he disposed of the body.

There's actually a lot I could say about interpretation of the body disposal site, which in this case seems to be the same location where he murdered them. I'll leave that post for another day; however I will say his choice to leave them where he murdered them was likely due to both practical factors (the difficulty of moving both of them) and psychological ones.

 

[Dontknow?]

Hope this is okay.

Racking my brain forever because I think there is a suspect and has been for a while until this new sketch. Could this be a man and his wife (alibi) sketch. That long jaw reminds me of one previous POI's wife's jaw. Plus the CPS abandoned building with a car possibly parked there (maybe for an appointment pick up?) wild. But I'm stuck on someone being the suspect. jmo

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Snipped by me.

I honestly don't have enough information about the crime scene itself to have a really firm opinion on most of these questions but I can speak to probabilities.

If I had to lean one way or another, I'd speculate it's more likely than not that he did act alone; that his encounter with them was spontaneous and opportunistic but that he was prepared to commit a crime against someone that day if he found a suitable victim. I'd say at the least he has a history of violence against women and likely has sex offenses in his past, which he may never have been officially linked to. I don't have enough information to say whether he has murdered before but if this was a sexually oriented murder (which IMO it was) then he likely will again.

Without knowing why LE in this case seems so sure about his linkage to Delphi I can't really say much about that. Clearly they have info that pertains to this that they are keeping quiet. I will say that it's somewhat established doctrine that certain types of killers operate within geographic comfort zones that are normally delineated by their spheres of "normal" activity - work, etc. It's pretty rare that an offender would not have familiarity with either the site where he first contacted his victim or the site where he disposed of the body.

There's actually a lot I could say about interpretation of the body disposal site, which in this case seems to be the same location where he murdered them. I'll leave that post for another day; however I will say his choice to leave them where he murdered them was likely due to both practical factors (the difficulty of moving both of them) and psychological ones.

I think that leaving them to be found is his way of getting to revel in what he had done sooner. For example the Iowa girls were not found for 5 months. He wanted immediate gratification in this case and is probably enjoying the notoriety he is still getting. I do think we will be surprised when he is caught.

<modsnip>

 

[girlfriday]

Many of you have followed this since the beginning, before social media accounts or posts were made private or removed, so may you be able to help me with my inquiry. TIA

Have there ever been any other photos or videos of either of the victims, or taken by them, on the high bridge, from previous visits to the area?

 

[jillybean51]

I get it. And I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I will, for a bit.

A simple comment by a teenager, at school, maybe at the table in the cafeteria, heard by a dozen other students, that they are going swimming, say, in a dangerous part of a local stream. One of those students goes home and comments at the dinner table about the teenager, and how dangerous it is. Or a couple students are discussing it later in the day as the custodian walks by pushing a mop. There's no way LE could trace it. Unless they were VERY lucky.

Point being, for me, I don't think these girls were entrapped, and I don't think they had any traceable electronic data that would show they were communicating with the killer(s), however, I DO think it very plausible that a killer could have anonymously learned of their upcoming presence at the bridge that day.

For example,the girls called DG for a drive home.Was he standing with someone and innocently said” Oh that was just my daughter,I have to pick her up at Monan Bridge at 3:30”?

 

[Justice101]

If the murders were not recorded, but LE says the guy in the photo on the bridge is definitely the killer, how can that be?

Probably just that the video has him walking up, contacting them, telling and forcing them to go down the hill and maybe some more audio from the girls indicting extreme fear and/or threats from BG)- if he showed them a gun, they probably gasped and said don't shoot us, etc.

LE does not have to defend in court that they said in public that this is the killer. (Remember, someone who is an accomplice, if they don't have proof who did it, is also considered a murderer.

My thoughts are LE concluded that 1+1+1+1 = 4 and they went with that because they were 90% sure he did it and acted alone because it is just a press conference and not a court of law when sworn testimony is taking place.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[SMK777]

In my estimation, a man approaching them on the bridge at the dead end and telling them to go down the hill where they were found murdered shortly after has a 99.9999 % chance of being the killer.

@stattlich1 and @Yemelyan

 

[Ravenmoon]

If the murders were not recorded, but LE says the guy in the photo on the bridge is definitely the killer, how can that be?

Maybe he says means that they were not visually recorded.
My suspicion is that there is enough on the audio to know what his intentions were , and maybe even audio of things that are deeply disturbing and graphic.
My heart breaks at the thought.

AMOO JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Indeed, I speculate too. And I appreciate your input.

The chances of them coming upon another person that was working in collusion with BG2, I speculate slim, but possible. The chances of them coming upon another person totally unknown and unrelated to BG2, very unlikely, I don't think is the case here, but remotely possible.

So what do you think Yemelyan, do you speculate this killer acted alone? Are we looking at a serial killer, who had no prior contact with these girls, or their families, who never met them or knew them, and who simply seized the opportunity that day, yet is believed to be from Delphi, or have had spent significant time in Delphi, and is believed to be very familiar with the bridge and trails?

Indiana State Police also issued the following clarification about the two sketches:

• They are not the same person
• The person depicted in the originally released sketch is not presently a person of interest in this investigation
• The sketch released on April 22nd is representative of the face of the person captured in the video on Liberty German’s cell phone as he was walking on the high bridge
• The person in the sketch released April 22nd is described as having a youthful appearance, but could fall in the age range from his 20’s to late 30’s
• This person’s appearance could look different today if he has grown a mustache, beard or let his hair grow longer or cut his hair shorter than depicted in the sketch

ISP: Person in first Delphi sketch is not a person of interest in Libby & Abby's murders

I hope that it is okay for me to add some input here.
My guess would be that if there was a second killer , there would be a second set of footprints.
It has not been stated that there were footprints , BUT- we are talking about a muddy and soft area , especially in February.
One could surmise that foot prints were at the scene.

AMOO JMO

 

[stattlich1]

There's actually a lot I could say about interpretation of the body disposal site, which in this case seems to be the same location where he murdered them. I'll leave that post for another day; however I will say his choice to leave them where he murdered them was likely due to both practical factors (the difficulty of moving both of them) and psychological ones.

I hope you didn't expect me to just gloss over this little paragraph

Is it peculiar that the killer did not wish to better hide his crime? What does that tell us about him? I mean, one would think a rudimentary attempt at burial, or hiding of some sort, would be logical, so as to avoid being caught.

Is there a message in the fact that this was not done?

Did this killer not have the time, or could he have wanted the community, or the world, to know what he had done?

Since it is thought that the killer knew the area, might one surmise that he chose the site? Or was it random, simply where they wound up that day?

If he did choose the site, then it appears he wanted the girls bodies to be found sooner, rather than later.

Then there is the LE comments, about the scene, possibly some oddities there.

I'm convinced this guy knew his way around the bridge, trails, and woods, totally convinced. What I'm not certain of is that he acted alone, and that this was a murder done by a serial killer, though it may have been, and/or possibly could have been his first?

I hope y'all don't find me annoying, I would REALLY like this killer to be caught, and I scarcely go a day without thinking about these two girls.