Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert #2

[Betty P]

The problem to your theory of course is that three of the Gilgo Beach four, Maureen Brainard-Barnes, Melissa Barthélemy and Amber Lynn Costello, did not have a pimp when they were murdered

As I mentioned before, I don't think the pimps are the killers, the john(s) are. In those cases, the twisted johns were comfortable with contacting the girls directly, through Craigslist. I don't think our theories are that far apart, as regards the scenario. I just happen to think the attack on Shannan and her subsequent death were done by the same killer(s). LISK was somewhere around Oak Beach that night and was present when Shannan arrived or knew she would be coming.

It's also the only explanation I can think of for local LE refusing to seriously investigate these murders once all the Gilgo Beach bodies were discovered and the cases linked. Why do you think that happened?

 

[Blueeyedbrowngirl]

As I mentioned before, I don't think the pimps are the killers, the john(s) are. In those cases, the twisted johns were comfortable with contacting the girls directly, through Craigslist. I don't think our theories are that far apart, as regards the scenario. I just happen to think the attack on Shannan and her subsequent death were done by the same killer(s). LISK was somewhere around Oak Beach that night and was present when Shannan arrived or knew she would be coming.

It's also the only explanation I can think of for local LE refusing to seriously investigate these murders once all the Gilgo Beach bodies were discovered and the cases linked. Why do you think that happened?

James Burke and Thomas Spota shut down the investigation and shut out the FBI in attempts to hide their corruption, abuses of power, and other unseemly activity. Burke has since served time and been released from prison, Spota’s been convicted, and the case is finally getting traction under new leadership. Refer to your upthread link to Robert Kolker’s recent NYT article covering these points.

 

[marsyao]

But you said in your first post:

My theory is these women were killed by clientele who contracted with pimps to provide them for this purpose. I'm not familiar with sexual perversions, but sick people who are into this kind of thing probably serve as a lucrative market.

So I told you three of the four known victims of the LISK did not have a pimp, they worked for themselves, there would be hard to establish a pimp-John connection, if there was no pimp.
And no, I don't believe Shannon was a victims of LISK, I believe she died of exposure

 

[Betty P]

But you said in your first post:


So I told you three of the four known victims of the LISK did not have a pimp, they worked for themselves, there would be hard to establish a pimp-John connection, if there was no pimp.
And no, I don't believe Shannon was a victims of LISK, I believe she died of exposure

I'm so sorry you misunderstood what I posted. I said, upon reconsideration, that in later years, there was no longer a need for a pimp connection and contact was made directly. I hope repeating that information was helpful.

It's ok for us to disagree about whether Shannon was a victim of the same john (s) who killed the other women.

Do you have an explanation for why Suffolk Co, LE stonewalled the case for so long and refused the assistance of other agencies, including the FBI? Any links to the corruption in that county and the failure to fully investigate the murders?

 

[Betty P]

James Burke and Thomas Spota shut down the investigation and shut out the FBI in attempts to hide their corruption, abuses of power, and other unseemly activity. Burke has since served time and been released from prison, Spota’s been convicted, and the case is finally getting traction under new leadership. Refer to your upthread link to Robert Kolker’s recent NYT article covering these points.

Yes, I know that. However, even the new police commissioner, a former member of the FBI, says that they stonewalled the FBI in the investigation of the serial murders of the women at Gilgo Beach, Manorville, etc.

The Gilgo Beach Murders Were a Cold Case. Then a New Police Chief Arrived.

 

[marsyao]

Do you have an explanation for why Suffolk Co, LE stonewalled the case for so long and refused the assistance of other agencies, including the FBI? Any links to the corruption in that county and the failure to fully investigate the murders?

Good old incompetence, LE in real life are not what we see on TV, there are many LE, there are many incompetence LE, then even good LE sometimes make mistake, even rather stupid mistake, I could provide some examples when I have time

 

[Blueeyedbrowngirl]

Yes, I know that. However, even the new police commissioner, a former member of the FBI, says that they stonewalled the FBI in the investigation of the serial murders of the women at Gilgo Beach, Manorville, etc.

The Gilgo Beach Murders Were a Cold Case. Then a New Police Chief Arrived.

d.

You obviously did not read what I said because hey, guess what, that’s what I said.

 

[TeenaNJ]

i have recently started to familiarize myself with the tragic fate of ms. sarah gilbert. my heart breaks for her, the terror she felt, and her late mother who never found the answers that she fought so hard for. i don’t know enough yet to build a solid opinion, but parsing through the posts of all my fellow sleuths has been eye-opening!

i just want to share one thing that has just bothered me since i first read it… The following is an excerpt taken from “The Long Island Serial Killer” (Feb 21, 2012) by: Eyes for Lies -

MP "says he tries to test her by asking her if she’s seen the movieFear and Loathing in Las Vegas…. (MP) continues, 'And then like I heard a 911 operator…uh…a…a lady on her phone…and that’s when I realized…oh…she’s on the phone with 911.’”

I think many have agreed that this “test” was certainly odd, if - in fact - it was a “test”. I’m doubtful about that - it makes no sense. What seemed more likely to me, when i first read that - is that is a cover for what was really said, and possibly captured with 911, before he realized SG had them on them on the phone. By his own “recollection” - it is right AFTER this “test” that he THEN “realized…oh…she’s on the phone with 911.”

To see if my suspicion made sense, I had to look up the movie Fear & Loathing in LV - as i was not at all familiar with it (and even so, was suspicious of this odd detail from MP!). I wondered if there was a reason that either this movie, or perhaps lines from the movie if uttered, would be something that would cause panic to SG. It didn’t take long to find a ton of references to crazy, tripping drugging, and this line from the script that stood out to me: “You *advertiser censored*… I’ll have you chopped into hamburger” (among many, many others) .

Inventing this “test” just seems like a way to explain what may have been heard by the operator. Just my opinion, i wonder if others have had similar thoughts… (and i apologize in advance if this has already been addressed - as i have not made it through all the earlier pages!).

 

[WINDSOR]

i have recently started to familiarize myself with the tragic fate of ms. sarah gilbert. my heart breaks for her, the terror she felt, and her late mother who never found the answers that she fought so hard for. i don’t know enough yet to build a solid opinion, but parsing through the posts of all my fellow sleuths has been eye-opening!

i just want to share one thing that has just bothered me since i first read it… The following is an excerpt taken from “The Long Island Serial Killer” (Feb 21, 2012) by: Eyes for Lies -

MP "says he tries to test her by asking her if she’s seen the movieFear and Loathing in Las Vegas…. (MP) continues, 'And then like I heard a 911 operator…uh…a…a lady on her phone…and that’s when I realized…oh…she’s on the phone with 911.’”

I think many have agreed that this “test” was certainly odd, if - in fact - it was a “test”. I’m doubtful about that - it makes no sense. What seemed more likely to me, when i first read that - is that is a cover for what was really said, and possibly captured with 911, before he realized SG had them on them on the phone. By his own “recollection” - it is right AFTER this “test” that he THEN “realized…oh…she’s on the phone with 911.”

To see if my suspicion made sense, I had to look up the movie Fear & Loathing in LV - as i was not at all familiar with it (and even so, was suspicious of this odd detail from MP!). I wondered if there was a reason that either this movie, or perhaps lines from the movie if uttered, would be something that would cause panic to SG. It didn’t take long to find a ton of references to crazy, tripping drugging, and this line from the script that stood out to me: “You *advertiser censored*… I’ll have you chopped into hamburger” (among many, many others) .

Inventing this “test” just seems like a way to explain what may have been heard by the operator. Just my opinion, i wonder if others have had similar thoughts… (and i apologize in advance if this has already been addressed - as i have not made it through all the earlier pages!).

I assume you you are really referring to Shannan Gilbert not Sherri her younger sister.
I agree with you the refernce to Fear and Loathing has some significance. It might be a 'safe' word; it could be an attempt to confuse the 911 operator. I believ the opportunity for investigators to extensively interogate Michael Pak is long gone. After over nine years, he can say I do not remember. As I have stated often before, I believe MP is the key to solving this case.

 

[Blueeyedbrowngirl]

Sarra Gilbert killed her own mother, Mari Gilbert.

 

[TeenaNJ]

I assume you you are really referring to Shannan Gilbert not Sherri her younger sister.
I agree with you the refernce to Fear and Loathing has some significance. It might be a 'safe' word; it could be an attempt to confuse the 911 operator. I believ the opportunity for investigators to extensively interogate Michael Pak is long gone. After over nine years, he can say I do not remember. As I have stated often before, I believe MP is the key to solving this case.

YES! thank you - i kept thinking 'sara gilbert' (from roseanne) when i heard the name, i didn't realize i actually typed it, geez... you are correct - i certainly intended to say shannan...
( youve piqued my interest - i'm going to go back and read some more of the earlier posts. i also noticed there is a POI: MP (among others) section that ill check out... thanks!)

 

[Vette114]

Long time listener first time caller...

A couple questions for those that have more information than I or those armchair medical examiners.

1. Has their ever been anything to address a killer (serial or not) carrying dead weight across the marsh? Lots of talk about the difficulty in traversing the marsh and none about traversing while carrying someone.

2. Would the "drill hole" in the hyoid bone or any of the deformities in the hyoid bone come from the facial surgery Shannan received?

3. How long can toxicology be determined after decomposition begins? I know that they check organs skin even maggots but is there a "shelf life" to determining toxicology?

 

[hawkshaw]

I think the Webber’s need to concentrate on getting the 911 tape heard and there should be a lot of questions for you to ask.

 

[Emre E]

If the recordings pointed to a certain person and a certain crime they would have used it and made it public years ago.. My guess is the 911 operators are mocking Shannan. That's why the police tries to supress the tapes.

 

[swedeheart]

Tricia interviewed John Ray on the Websleuths podcast this evening. It's definitely worth a listen. They discuss the 911 call.

"If the public hears the recording, the public will be shocked. The public will be outraged. That much I can say.

In light of what the police claimed vs. what is true, you'll be shocked."

He also said that a new development was that the belt with the initials (WH or HM) matches the last name of the wife of Dr. Hackett. Her name was Wansel-Hackett, and John has documentary proof that she used to go by that name. He turned the tip over to the police.

He also has strong evidence that Shannan was a client of Bissett's (who committed suicide days after her body was found). The police have never asked him for the evidence.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

What happened to our maps thread ? I can't find it anywhere. I'm trying to refresh my memory regarding the proximity of Barbara Brennan's house to Hackett's house.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Tricia interviewed John Ray on the Websleuths podcast this evening. It's definitely worth a listen. They discuss the 911 call.

"If the public hears the recording, the public will be shocked. The public will be outraged. That much I can say.

In light of what the police claimed vs. what is true, you'll be shocked."

He also said that a new development was that the belt with the initials (WH or HM) matches the last name of the wife of Dr. Hackett. Her name was Wansel-Hackett, and John has documentary proof that she used to go by that name. He turned the tip over to the police.

He also has strong evidence that Shannan was a client of Bissett's (who committed suicide days after her body was found). The police have never asked him for the evidence.

No offense to John Ray, but does anyone really believe that Barbara Hackett would own a belt that looked like this ? I mean...maybe...when she was 13. But yeah...put me down for a hard "no".

 

[Blueeyedbrowngirl]

No offense to John Ray, but does anyone really believe that Barbara Hackett would own a belt that looked like this ? I mean...maybe...when she was 13. But yeah...put me down for a hard "no".

Nope. The letters scream late eighties/early nineties, Lollapolooza era tribal font. Almost every mall in America at that time had a store that embossed and/or stamped leather goods, and lots of seaside/beachfront communities had similar shops/kiosks. I’m 54 and trust me, back in the day those belts and leather goods were e v e r y w h e r e. I think LISK is in my age range and that belt does nothing to sway that opinion, you know?

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Nope. The letters scream late eighties/early nineties, Lollapolooza era tribal font. Almost every mall in America at that time had a store that embossed and/or stamped leather goods, and lots of seaside/beachfront communities had similar shops/kiosks. I’m 54 and trust me, back in the day those belts and leather goods were e v e r y w h e r e. I think LISK is in my age range and that belt does nothing to sway that opinion, you know?

Yep. I'm 56 and grew up in a beach town. Leather belts, leather bracelets, crocheted hats made out of soda cans, make your own sand art in stretched out coke bottles. LOL...first thing I thought of was " OH ! That belt's been lying around in someone's garage or basement for a long time.

( Really, I have no idea, but that is the first thing I thought of. )

 

[burntsnoop]

What happened to our maps thread ? I can't find it anywhere. I'm trying to refresh my memory regarding the proximity of Barbara Brennan's house to Hackett's house.

Here's one going around: Long Island Murders by jjslate · MapHub