Amanda Knox Discussion-Friendly Thread

[Daphne1972]

The wild, raunchy past of Foxy Knoxy | Daily Mail Online

 

[FergusMcDuck]

You miss my point. But we can't discuss here.

Why not? This is the discussion-friendly thread, is it not?

The wild, raunchy past of Foxy Knoxy | Daily Mail Online

Ah, yes, quite a good example of the false and scandalous stories about Amanda Knox that were distributed in the days after her arrest. Also an excellent example of the kind of poor journalism that has made the Daily Mail notorious. Wikipedia actually bans the use of it as a source, even for uncontroversial articles, due to the frequency of their lies.

Let's look at the Daily Mail's description:

The officer suspected "some kids" were just playing their music too loud, but what he found was no run-of-the-mill summer student party: he later told colleagues it was like a scene from Baghdad.

Gangs of students, high on drink and drugs, were hurling rocks into the road. Cars were swerving to avoid them. Debris littered the road. It was mayhem.

Fearing reprisals, neighbours who had called the police refused to give their names. The police officer called for back-up as the youths began throwing rocks at the windows of houses on the neat, tree-lined streets.

Eventually, after reinforcements had arrived, the students calmed down. Police made only one arrest: the person they held responsible for the party and the disorder.

Her name? Amanda Knox, or, as she prefers to be known, Foxy Knoxy.

And here is the police report:

In the city of Seattle

I was on uniformed patrol in the marked unit as 3U5. At approximately 0028 hours, I responded to the report of a loud party in the listed location. The complainant relayed to dispatch that participants from the party were throwing rocks at his house and at passing cars. The complainant requested officer not contact him. Upon arrival, I noted loud amplified music coming from the listed address. The music could be heard from a distance greater than 75 ft from the source. I also noted several rocks in the street. I did not locate any damage at that time. I contacted a party participant and had them retrieve a resident.

S1/Knox contacted me (in front of the house). She stated that she was one of the current residents. She stated that she was the one who was hosting the party (as she was moving out). She stated that she was not aware of any rock throwers at the gathering.

I issued S1/Knox this infraction for the noise violation and a warning for the rock throwing. I explained how dangerous and juvenile that action was.

See Cad event 264012 for further.

No further action taken at this time.

So, a whole pack of lies up to and including the lie that Knox was arrested. Just a simple noise citation, with no confirmation that the rock throwing (if it happened) and the party were connected. The rest is a collection of the same misogynistic tripe that characterized the reporting of the case in those early days.

 

[Daphne1972]

Why not? This is the discussion-friendly thread, is it not?



Ah, yes, quite a good example of the false and scandalous stories about Amanda Knox that were distributed in the days after her arrest. Also an excellent example of the kind of poor journalism that has made the Daily Mail notorious. Wikipedia actually bans the use of it as a source, even for uncontroversial articles, due to the frequency of their lies.

Let's look at the Daily Mail's description:



And here is the police report:



So, a whole pack of lies up to and including the lie that Knox was arrested. Just a simple noise citation, with no confirmation that the rock throwing (if it happened) and the party were connected. The rest is a collection of the same misogynistic tripe that characterized the reporting of the case in those early days.

Let me check on the rap sheet. But other than that just a regular party! Nothing to see here! Move along.

 

[Daphne1972]

Indeed no hearing for that party that I can find in the Seattle municipal court. But once police drops the arrest, than you can get those records expunged in Washington state. Let me dig a bit deeper.

But it did find a February 2017 parking infraction. Which may be something I can use for different reasons.​

 

[Daphne1972]

Camera 7 of garage across the street. I checked the full tape and above clip is legit.

File library: CCTV videos - The Murder of Meredith Kercher

 

[FergusMcDuck]

<modsnip: not an approved source>

Camera 7 of garage across the street. I checked the full tape and above clip is legit.

File library: CCTV videos - The Murder of Meredith Kercher

It is certainly legit. It's also not Amanda. Neither prosecution nor defense has ever claimed that, because it doesn't make sense for it to be her in any scenario. Two minutes before (time stamp 20:51) you can see Meredith arrive home. If that is Amanda, did she kill Meredith, clean up and leisurely stroll through the parking garage (why go in there) in less than two minutes?

 

[Daphne1972]

<modsnip> It is certainly legit. It's also not Amanda. Neither prosecution nor defense has ever claimed that, because it doesn't make sense for it to be her in any scenario. Two minutes before (time stamp 20:51) you can see Meredith arrive home. If that is Amanda, did she kill Meredith, clean up and leisurely stroll through the parking garage (why go in there) in less than two minutes?

As if she couldn't have walked back via another route???
Plus how do you know it's not her? Let me examine Knox's gait and the taped one's gait. <modsnip>

 

[FergusMcDuck]

As if she couldn't have walked back via another route???
Plus how do you know it's not her? Let me examine Knox's gait and the taped one's gait.

Why would it be her? Is anyone except some random Italian TV show claiming that? The prosecution never did. It's not like Amanda had some unique hairstyle or anything. Just a young woman, calmly strolling into a parking garage Amanda had no reason to be in, guilty or innocent. <modsnip>

 

[dgfred]

Going after Mignini is one of the many things that stink up her case. It is amazing that so many 'excuses' have to be made for actions, words and evidence to get a person off of murder charges. Nobody on earth has that bad of luck.
It is basically a duplicate of OJ's acquittal. All the evidence points to the accused... but we can go after the prosecutors, investigators, technicians and everybody else to get our gal out of Italy and away from murder charges. Blood evidence points at AK... ah the techs didn't process it properly.

Start with the spiderman going thru the window, instead of a busted door and it all comes to light. Interesting that so many excuses/deflections have to be believed... is it not?
Long ago I made a list of all the evidence that HAD to be explained/excused away... I will search for it. IIRC there were like 30 plus different things.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Going after Mignini is one of the many things that stink up her case.

It's not so much going after Mignini to discredit the case, as it is looking at Mignini's history to explain why the case was bungled. That it was bungled is an established fact by now.

It is amazing that so many 'excuses' have to be made for actions, words and evidence to get a person off of murder charges. Nobody on earth has that bad of luck.

Because it wasn't bad luck. It was bad police work.

The investigators - specifically Monica Napoleoni and Giuliano Mignini - decided from the beginning that Amanda was involved, not by any physical evidence but their intuition. Mignini admits as much in the Amanda Knox documentary. Once they had done that the investigation went from trying to find Meredith's killer to proving Amanda was (one of the) killer(s). This was day one, and the investigation was immediately scuttled.

This isn't something unique to this case. Police often get tunnel vision due to "intuition". Mignini's history, however, explains why he zeroed in on a Halloween-related ritual murder (which would point away from a burglary gone wrong).

It also explains why, when Rudy Guede was found, they didn't remove Amanda and Raffaele from the equation. I recommend reading the Micheli verdict (yes, the same Micheli who sentenced Rudy), who went through the entire Narducci case and demolished it. Reading the Narducci case, we see a prosecutor who once he has come to a conclusion, will reject any testimony and evidence that contradicts it. Micheli had to go to the witness transcripts to find things Mignini had left out from his presentations.

It is basically a duplicate of OJ's acquittal. All the evidence points to the accused... but we can go after the prosecutors, investigators, technicians and everybody else to get our gal out of Italy and away from murder charges. Blood evidence points at AK... ah the techs didn't process it properly.

Let's be accurate: there was never any blood evidence pointing at AK. The footprints "matched" to her weren't made in blood. The kitchen knife with Amanda's DNA on it had no blood on it.

Start with the spiderman going thru the window, instead of a busted door and it all comes to light.

Why? I mean, let's re-write your sentence:

"Start with the burglar who entered through a window, instead of a locked door and it all comes to light."

What is strange about a burglar entering though a window? It's not just a common modus operandi, it's specifically one used in other burglaries tied to Rudy Guede. We can quibble about which window gave Rudy the best opportunity, but this isn't Ocean's Eleven. It's not about the perfect heist. It's a guy who's done this a few times before seeing his chance and taking it.

Interesting that so many excuses/deflections have to be believed... is it not?
Long ago I made a list of all the evidence that HAD to be explained/excused away... I will search for it. IIRC there were like 30 plus different things.

Well, of course! Police and media threw everything at the wall hoping something would stick. Take the "bloody footprints" that people still mention. The police knew from the start that they weren't made in blood, so there's not even a need for an excuse for them - yet Amanda's defenders are expected to do so anyway.

Incompetent and fixated police work created a bunch of useless yet persistent "evidence". It's not a new tale, but it is a particularly bad one.

 

[silvermoonpie]

If they aren't guilty how did all that DNA from Sollecito get on Kercher's bra clasp? That room was not touched. It lay there, but from what I read, there's little way there could have been any "contamination". The Italian police jeopardising through negligence that piece of evidence allowed the defense team to concoct a contamination story.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

If they aren't guilty how did all that DNA from Sollecito get on Kercher's bra clasp? That room was not touched. It lay there, but from what I read, there's little way there could have been any "contamination". The Italian police jeopardising through negligence that piece of evidence allowed the defense team to concoct a contamination story.

There were a total of four male DNA profiles (all miniscule LCN, hardly "all that") on the clasp, Raffaele's and three unknown who were never matched to anyone. So the question is, if Raffaele was guilty, how did the other three (non-Guede) profiles make it there?

It is also wrong to say the room wasn't touched. Here is a site where you can see photos from the first inspection on Nov 2nd (where the clasp was photographed on the floor) and the final one at Dec 18th (where the clasp was collected for testing). You can clearly see that not only has the room been touched, it's been turned upside down, and there are visible marks on the clasp that wasn't there in November. Here is the clasp on Dec 18th, picked up by visibly dirty gloves.

So how did the DNA get there specifically? Impossible to tell, but we know a) Raffaele had DNA present in the house (a cigarette butt in the kitchen), b) there weren't many DNA samples taken from outside the room meaning his DNA could be in the corridor or Amanda's room or the kitchen and be tossed around when the incompetent police investigators ruined the crime scene (as we know happened).

My guess? If the police had done their job and tested the other three profiles I suspect we'd get at least some of these names: Luca Altieri, Marco Zaroli, Michele Battistelli, Fabio Marsi.

Basically, those who had tugged at Meredith's door handle, trying to get it open (postal police and Filomena's friends). Then a forensic scientist grabs the handle, doesn't bother to change gloves, and picks up a bra clasp. That's my theory, but as the pictures show, with a crime scene that mishandled, it could have come from anywhere.

 

[dgfred]

Sorry silvermoonpie... concocting was/is the name of the game in this case. Had to.

Same thing with RS's stories, AK's behavior/statements/actions, window evidence, knife evidence, fake burglary, when they ate dinner, what they were doing, where were they that night, drug usage, etc. It is amazing the amount needed to give a speckle of doubt to so many different things that actually point to guilt of RG, RS and AK. Why not the truth and openness?
We have this evidence- but it was collected wrong, mishandled, tested wrong, a lie, prosecutor is evil, prosecutor is out to get AK, she was under stress and a cruel interrogation, etc... it goes on and on. Have to concoct a counter-theory to everything... but it really shouldn't be necessary.
It was the defense job to get her off any way possible... and they eventually succeeded.
Kudos to them but the evidence is all there for everyone to see. IMO

 

[FergusMcDuck]

It's interesting, because I've always been astonished at the "concocting" needed to create a case for the guilt of Knox and Sollecito, when the case is, at heart, a simple and straightforward one:

Rudy Guede broke into the apartment via Filomena Romanelli's window. While still inside, Meredith Kercher came home and surprised him. He fought, molested and killed her with his pocket knife, then fled.

If we want to involve Amanda and Raffaele in this, we have to go through some tortured steps. The burglary has to be fake, since Amanda lived there and could let anyone in. But the evidence from the window, and the glass spray, clearly suggests a rock thrown from the outside, fitting at least one other burglary tied to Rudy. So we have to come up with some illogical and physics-defying reconstruction where they put the window against the wall and throw the stone from the inside, after which they would have simulated the glass spray. We also have to claim that the glass was on top of everything, despite crime scene photos giving a lie to this.

Then we have to change the murder weapon. A pocket knife matches the bloody outline on the bed, as well as every single knife wound made to Meredith, but we don't have a pocket knife with DNA on it that's connected to Amanda. Only a dubiously acquired kitchen knife that never had blood on it, but (apparently) a speck of Meredith's DNA. So now we have to complicate the murder with dividing the knife wounds into those caused by the kitchen knife, and those who could not have been caused by it (which are most of them).

Now we have to create inconsistensies in the alibis of Amanda and Rafaelle. Their story is also simple and straightforward:

Amanda was with Rafaelle when Patrick Lumumba texted her that she wouldn't be needed at work. They spent the evening watching films and cartoons, made and ate a late dinner, then stayed up to talk and make love until the small hours.

To discredit this, we have to invent some discrepancies. Like, say, the time they had dinner. Amanda and Rafaelle both say it was late, after 9:30-10:00, even as late as 11:00. At 8:40, when Rafaelle's father called, Rafaelle was washing dishes. So, we can invent the idea that they had actually eaten before 8:40, despite no one ever claiming that, and it relies on the dodgy logic that dishes are only washed after a meal, never before.

The next problem is the timeline. It is also simple and straightforward.

Based on the duodenum contents, Meredith was killed before 9:30, 10:00 at the very latest (but unlikely). Based on CCTV footage, she arrived home just minutes after 9:00. Time of death, 9:00-9:30.

The major problem is that the only witnesses we've been able to get, all contradict the basic scientific facts of the case. The heroin-addled serial witness claimed that he saw Amanda and Rafaelle loitering about outside until close to midnight (9:30-11:30). The half-deaf woman say she heard a scream at 11:00-11:30. So we just ignore the duodenum evidence, or try to claim that stomach content analysis is inexact (it is, but duodenum contents is one of the few aspects that is regular: if there's no contents as in the case of Maredith, it's within three hours of the start of the last meal).

So, now we've concocted a later time of death, at 11:30. However, by 10:00, someone else used Meredith's phone, and by 10:14, the phone was outside the cottage. Meredith was still in her jacket when she was attacked, yet we know she arrived home at 9:05. There was also a car broken down outside the cottage between 10:45 and 11:25, with witnesses who say the cottage was dark and quiet. We now have to either pretend she was laying on her bed in the dark for two hours in her jacket, misdialing on her phone, until Amanda and Raffaele burst in, or there was a stretched-out over-two-hours attack/murder (perhaps Mignini's Halloween ritual?) that saw at least one of them leave with the phones, until the actual murder an hour later. All while the people right outside saw or heard nothing.

There is computer evidence of Amanda and Rafaelle watching Amelie (ending at 9:15) and then an episode of Naruto (9:25 to 9:45). If we still considered the science this would be enough to acquit, but we've discarded the duodenum contents already. We find footprints in luminol in the cabin. They're not made of blood, so we just have to assume that they actually were and that the tests were wrong.

We find a bra clasp that has been missed for over a month by police, left in an unsecured crime scene that has been turned upside down and has no less than four (4) male DNA profiles on it. Simple and straightfoward explanation: contamination. But that doesn't help us, so we concoct a theory where only Raffaele's DNA profile is valid and the rest safely ignored.

So it goes, on and on. Raffaele shows the police a bloody footprint on the bathmat. Simple and straightforward explanation: Rudy's foot. Concocted explanation: if we combine the first two toeprints we can say it's Raffaele's larger toe. Also, he called our attention to the print because... reasons?

This mess of concoctions we now have to take to trial. We are careful not to hand over all the information to the defense, or they would see the contorsions within. We just have to rely on the judge favoring the prosecution and not, say, ordering an independent review of the DNA or something...

It's great that the Supreme Court of Cassation was able to see through these concoctions by police and prosecutors and arrive at the truth - simple and straightforward.

 

[MajorHoople]

@FergusMcDuck, that's a great post. Thanks!

 

[Pip Stevo]

Knox is guilty and a free murderer, like Casey Anthony. I will be back with dot points very soon, as soon as I finish reading the fast amount of damning evidence I am sifting through. <modsnip: broken link>

Tit bit: Around midnight, a couple walking through the carpark, that overlooked the Villa across the road, said they saw a person looking over down at the villa area. He looked like Harry Potter they both said. They remembered that. Ah, Raffa on the lookout while Knox is removing as much evidence as she can. Knox's bedside table lamp was also found on the floor in Meredith's room. To help her see? Yup.

 

[Pip Stevo]

McDuck is wrong on many accounts. The staged break-in was done by Knox. The shattered glass was found ON TOP OF the clothes that had been pulled from their drawers. There was no scraping marks on the wall outside which would have been left by Guede. There were no trampling on the ground under the window. And the window was ten feet above the ground!

 

[Pip Stevo]

McDuck, Meredith had 11 knife wounds. Small very small, others like the neck wound could only have been made by a kitchen knife. Raffa's. The Italian Police know that more than one person was involved. Knox is a narcissistic psychopath with a Borderline personality disorder. Creepy girl./ v Dysfunctional child hood.

 

[Pip Stevo]

McDuck: The computer evidence is inaccurate. The movie ran and ended and shut down all by itself. Don't need any human interaction for that to happen. Records show that the computer was manually used again at 6:10 am the next day.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

McDuck is wrong on many accounts. The staged break-in was done by Knox. The shattered glass was found ON TOP OF the clothes that had been pulled from their drawers. There was no scraping marks on the wall outside which would have been left by Guede. There were no trampling on the ground under the window. And the window was ten feet above the ground!

Go here. Look at the last three sections for Filomena Romanelli's room. In picture 5 of 8 in the second to last section, you can see a glass shard under the clothing on the floor. I'd ask to look for glass shards on top of the clothing, but I have been unable to see any in the pictures. About all we can see is a faint spray as far as the blue carpet. In fact, the reason we even talk about glass shards on top of things is from Filomena's testimony that she grabbed her laptop from the floor and swept glass shards from it. The laptop was right under the window.

Now look at picture 4 of 11 from the third to last section. We see two distinct piles on the floor, one by the closet, and one right under the window below the chair, which includes a handbag, a shopping bag and would have included the laptop if Filomena hadn't removed it before the investigators photographed the place. The closet pile obviously was pulled from the shelves, but the other pile is more likely to have been piled against the wall and fallen down. Looking at the room, the lack of space for her things is obvious. The pile by the closet is the only sign of ransacking; the bed and the desk show no sign of it. There was an open drawer in Laura's room; it appears that Guede went for drawers to look for money.

So what can we say about the pile below the window? In the last section, we see markings in the inner shutter (2 and 10 of 21), as well as larger shards piled on the windowsill (3 of 21). The rock is just below, having torn through a paper bag and come to rest below the chair.

As for the wall outside, you neglect to mention that there was a window below, that could be used for a foothold, and we do indeed see a mark on the top of the lintel. Was it made by Guede? Impossible to say, the whole wall is in fairly bad shape, but there's no lack of markings. As for the ground below, Guede would not exactly have stayed on it for long. Can you see if someone has walked across a lawn? But even if there were, there is the unfortunate truth that the initial investigators used the area for smoking breaks...

So we arrive at two things:

1. Guede either opens the left (nothern) outer shutter or it was already open (by wind). He throws a rock through the window, shattering the glass pane and smashing into the lower left part of the inner shutter. A faint glass spray is sent into the room. The rock, its speed retarded by the inner shutter, goes slightly to the right and hits the items Filomena has stacked against the wall below the window. The paper bag is torn and it, the handbag and the laptop (along with what I presume is a sweater) fall on the ground, landing on parts of the faint glass spray. Rudy scales the wall, picking glass shards from the frame to access the latch, placing them on the windowsill. As he climbs in, he sweeps some of the shards on the laptop below. He makes an initial run through Filomena's packed closet, but finds nothing. He walks over the glass spray, where a shard gets stuck in the sole of his shoe. It will later be found in one of his bloody shoeprints. He then exits Filomena's room.

2. Most of the evidence not only doesn't support the staging theory, they work against it.

McDuck, Meredith had 11 knife wounds. Small very small, others like the neck wound could only have been made by a kitchen knife. Raffa's. The Italian Police know that more than one person was involved. Knox is a narcissistic psychopath with a Borderline personality disorder. Creepy girl./ v Dysfunctional child hood.

This is wrong. All wounds could have been made by a pocket knife, whereas the kitchen knife could not have made most of them. Indeed, only one, the final fatal wound, could have been made by the kitchen knife, but Occam's razor can be invoked here. Not only that, but we have the imprint of the knifeblade on the bedsheet. It's the size of a pocket knife, not the kitchen knife.

Trying to get a clear picture of what happened in the room is difficult, but given the wounds and the blood spray, we can get a fairly good idea. Rudy grabs Meredith by her bed, pulling her back to him and placing his knife at the right side of her throat, cutting her (there's blood at the head of her bed). He may intend to demand something, money, sex or both. Meredith pushes back, sending them backwards to the desk by the opposite wall (it's a small room), where Rudy cuts again. Meredith falls to her knees, and Rudy grabs her chin hard enough to leave fingermarks and stabs three times into her throat, the third time tearing a wide gap that ultimately kills her. When she collapses on the floor, Rudy flips her over, drags her legs to get easier access, tears off her clothes and molests her. The evidence suggests she drew her final breaths as Rudy was violating her.

All the blood spray and markings are accounted for, and there's no blocked areas where another person could have been. It's a small room, 2.91 x 3.36 m without furniture. There would have been evidence of anyone else in the room, had they been there.

There were seven experts testifying at the initial trial. Six said that the evidence indicated a single killer or that a single killer couldn't be ruled out.

McDuck: The computer evidence is inaccurate. The movie ran and ended and shut down all by itself. Don't need any human interaction for that to happen. Records show that the computer was manually used again at 6:10 am the next day.

Except another search was made with the program Spotlight that discovered another file (Naruto ep 101) that was last opened on Nov 1st 2007 21:26, running for 20 minutes. So how did the police miss that? Well, the file was last accessed on Nov 6th, 10:38 and last changed 13:28 the same day. Both those timestamps are after Raffaele was brought into custody and after the police took his computer into possession.

Someone was at Raffaele's apartment to open that file at 21:26. And by that time Meredith (by the evidence of the duodenum contents) was most likely already dead.

Jezz Ducky, you have not done your research. Rudy had his shoes on when he ran from the villa. Barefoot prints were found by forensics on the floor tiles, after being washed away.

I don't recall ever claiming he ran out without his shoes. Indeed, there's where we get the evidence that he committed the break-in (glass in his shoeprint). He did, however, take off his shoe at one point, since his footprint is on the bathmat, in faint bloody water. Likely he wanted to wash blood from his pants either in the bidet or the shower, and naturally removed his shoes and socks to do so.

As for the other footprints uncovered with luminol in the apartment, they're irrelevant. They were tested and confirmed not to be made in blood. It's hardly a puzzle to figure out why an apartment of four young women would have prints from bare feet throughout.