Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14

Status
Not open for further replies.
Just one other comment about the podcast that was somewhat intriguing regarding the actual SCC hearing - The NP reporter clearly is familiar with SCC proceedings and mentioned how each judge is thoroughly familiar with each case beforehand. So then he proceeded to mention some unusual comments made by the Judges and compared that to be more typical of casual discussion within High Society gatherings -ie “sophisticated killers”, “we don’t know anything” etc. (the full comments have already been linked here IIRC).

While the NP reporter didn’t come right out and say it, I got the feeling he was a bit mystified by the purpose of the Judges speculative comments, almost as if they were play acting for a specific reason.

JMO
 
Yes, but what I’m saying is I don’t believe for a moment the anonymous home owners just viewed “some” of the video and overlooked the most critical portion, the evening of Feb 13th. If the video contained images of the killer that evening it would be to the home owners’ best interest to stay silent about it because of its evidentiary value.

You and me probably differ because I do not believe everything published in the media is always 100% truthful, especially when the identity of the source is undisclosed. Regardless, the most important point is whether or not the camera captured the killer/s entrance and/or exit on the evening of the 13th and we don’t know.

When an arrest is made the defense can certainly argue TPS botched the investigation, quite a typical ploy. Tunnel vision is another tactic. But it’s the actual evidence the prosecution puts forth that proves guilt beyond reasonable doubt, not the timeline of when TPS collected it.

I take it you believe the case will never be solved but in the podcast which Dotr linked above the interviewee confirmed they’d spoken to TPS the day before, who confirmed the investigation was “active and ongoing”. That’s good news to me - who but the killer wouldn’t look forward to a conviction!

Like I suspect some others here, I think LE has a theory and maybe even a pretty good idea of who was responsible or involved. But I think their issue is proving it. I believe the killers were likely hired professionals, and were well versed in getting in, murdering, and getting out without being seen or leaving evidence that would allow them to be incriminated. So I think LE is in an uphill battle. But, the Jessop case was Evidently “solved” after decades, so there is always hope they find the Sherman murderers.
 
Like I suspect some others here, I think LE has a theory and maybe even a pretty good idea of who was responsible or involved. But I think their issue is proving it. I believe the killers were likely hired professionals, and were well versed in getting in, murdering, and getting out without being seen or leaving evidence that would allow them to be incriminated. So I think LE is in an uphill battle. But, the Jessop case was Evidently “solved” after decades, so there is always hope they find the Sherman murderers.

who is LE?
 
2019
Proposed $1.1-billion class-action suit targeting opioid drug makers filed in Ontario

The list of 28 defendants includes Purdue Pharma, whose OxyContin pain pill has been implicated in Canada’s overdose epidemic; Bristol-Myers Squibb Canada, the maker of Percocet; and Apotex, the country’s largest generic-drug maker.

2020
Purdue Pharma agrees to plead guilty over OxyContin marketing

Purdue Pharma, the drugmaker blamed for helping to unleash America's staggering opioid crisis, agreed to plead guilty to criminal charges as part of an $8 billion settlement over its marketing of OxyContin, the Department of Justice revealed Wednesday.
 
With DNA evidence from the Jessop case being in the news, I wonder about DNA at the Sherman house. One problem could be, if a relative was involved, how would the TPS know when the DNA was left?

Another challenge would be the number of people who had been going through the Sherman house prior to the deaths. Has the TPS been collecting DNA from staff and visitors to the home?

If unidentified DNA was found, it may be very difficult to match, especially if it belongs to someone who is not in Canadian and USA databases.

Has the TPS publically announced they even have DNA evidence?

Finally if the criminals were non-related, and highly skilled, one would assume that they took great percautions not to leave DNA, possibly wearing something similar to a hazmat suit.
 
With DNA evidence from the Jessop case being in the news, I wonder about DNA at the Sherman house. One problem could be, if a relative was involved, how would the TPS know when the DNA was left?

Another challenge would be the number of people who had been going through the Sherman house prior to the deaths. Has the TPS been collecting DNA from staff and visitors to the home?

If unidentified DNA was found, it may be very difficult to match, especially if it belongs to someone who is not in Canadian and USA databases.

Has the TPS publically announced they even have DNA evidence?

Finally if the criminals were non-related, and highly skilled, one would assume that they took great percautions not to leave DNA, possibly wearing something similar to a hazmat suit.

Going through the house both both prior to the deaths and after the deaths! Cleaners, realtors and their clients, an apotex employee, law enforcement aNd funeral home people all accessed the house after the murders. Plus, we don’t know if the mysterious person in the car that went to the front door several times on the day after the murder went in the house. Finally, we don’t know who else may have accessed the house or the crime scene in the 1.5 to 2.5 hours it took to call the police after the bodies were discovered. Many possibilities here!
 
Going through the house both both prior to the deaths and after the deaths! Cleaners, realtors and their clients, an apotex employee, law enforcement aNd funeral home people all accessed the house after the murders. Plus, we don’t know if the mysterious person in the car that went to the front door several times on the day after the murder went in the house. Finally, we don’t know who else may have accessed the house or the crime scene in the 1.5 to 2.5 hours it took to call the police after the bodies were discovered. Many possibilities here!


The police would have touch DNA from clothing of both Honey & Barry. I suspect the DNA has been collected and sent for Familiar DNA matches.

Segway to the murder of Ms. Christine Jessop. It took a long time but the police got their man. I'm a believer that TPS are hard at work building a case against the killer.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/investigates/calvin-hoover-family-tree-genealogy-1.5773187
 
With DNA evidence from the Jessop case being in the news, I wonder about DNA at the Sherman house. One problem could be, if a relative was involved, how would the TPS know when the DNA was left?

Another challenge would be the number of people who had been going through the Sherman house prior to the deaths. Has the TPS been collecting DNA from staff and visitors to the home?

If unidentified DNA was found, it may be very difficult to match, especially if it belongs to someone who is not in Canadian and USA databases.

Has the TPS publically announced they even have DNA evidence?

Finally if the criminals were non-related, and highly skilled, one would assume that they took great percautions not to leave DNA, possibly wearing something similar to a hazmat suit.


If you google touch DNA you'll see that cases in the US have been solved using touch DNA. Using familiar databases Toronto Police ought to be able to confirm suspicions they have. The police are holding their cards tight to the vest on this one. There is only 1 lead detective.

The information pipeline has dried up. The only info that's getting out is when Donovan brings the detective to court using an ITO (Access to Information and Privacy Process and Compliance Manual for the OPC - Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada)

I've posted this before but I'll say it again. The lead detective told Donovan that they have a working theory (will not say if they have or don't have a suspect) and there are 2 individuals they wish to question but they can't find them and assume they have left the country. They have not provided any formal information about the individuals.

Here's the link to the Supreme Court Donovan case.
Supreme Court of Canada - SCC Case Information - Docket - 38695

The last entry is
2020-10-06 Judgment reserved OR rendered with reasons to follow

It means the Honourable Chief Justices are mulling over the case. There have been departures from the open court systems prior. Does this one fit? I don't think so but it's possible they may rule otherwise. With courts you just can't be sure. I do expect the do a completely thorough job on this.
 
I may be wrong, but I feel this forum is sort of a bellweather for public interest in solving the Sherman case. I get a little anxious when there is no posting here. I certainly do not want the media, TPS and especially the perpetrator(s) to think nobody cares.

True everybody is in a holding pattern waiting for the Supreme Court to rule on the release of the estate files.
When the court rules, a number of pundits will speculate what will this mean for the police investigation.

I think there can be three different court rulings.
1) No files to be released.
2) All the files to be released.
3) Some files released. I have a hunch the court will go with this alternative. It allows both sides to claim victory. The information released will not have any 'wow' impact and the judges will be lauded for their Solomon-like wisdom. Very little will change in the public's perception; no obvious suspect, different laws for the rich, lawyers always win.
 
Going through the house both both prior to the deaths and after the deaths! Cleaners, realtors and their clients, an apotex employee, law enforcement aNd funeral home people all accessed the house after the murders. Plus, we don’t know if the mysterious person in the car that went to the front door several times on the day after the murder went in the house. Finally, we don’t know who else may have accessed the house or the crime scene in the 1.5 to 2.5 hours it took to call the police after the bodies were discovered. Many possibilities here!

The bodies would have been removed to the Coroners Office, so it would be their staff, not funeral people.
The funeral home people would have collected them from the Coroners Office only after they were released and after the double autopsies. Just to clarify.
 
The bodies would have been removed to the Coroners Office, so it would be their staff, not funeral people.
The funeral home people would have collected them from the Coroners Office only after they were released and after the double autopsies. Just to clarify.

Thank for the clarification.
IIRC I believe I commented at the time that at least one of the men wheeling the bodies out of the home had no foot coverings on. Whether from the coroners office or the funeral home, its hard to believe that LE had collected all possible DNA evidence in such a short time frame between the discovery of the bodies and their removal from the house. Especially since the PI's indicated that LE had missed collecting some DNA evidence.
By the way, I forgot to include he plant people as also accessing the house.
 
I may be wrong, but I feel this forum is sort of a bellweather for public interest in solving the Sherman case. I get a little anxious when there is no posting here. I certainly do not want the media, TPS and especially the perpetrator(s) to think nobody cares.

True everybody is in a holding pattern waiting for the Supreme Court to rule on the release of the estate files.
When the court rules, a number of pundits will speculate what will this mean for the police investigation.

I think there can be three different court rulings.
1) No files to be released.
2) All the files to be released.
3) Some files released. I have a hunch the court will go with this alternative. It allows both sides to claim victory. The information released will not have any 'wow' impact and the judges will be lauded for their Solomon-like wisdom. Very little will change in the public's perception; no obvious suspect, different laws for the rich, lawyers always win.

Its difficult to keep this discussion alive- we aren't allowed to speculate, or name full names, or quote anything other that MSM. If the police say nothing and the media is silent all we are left with is to rehash old topics.
 
merlin_132931142_e71626ff-6e9d-405c-89ef-8932d5049fd5-articleLarge.jpg
 
Thank for the clarification.
IIRC I believe I commented at the time that at least one of the men wheeling the bodies out of the home had no foot coverings on. Whether from the coroners office or the funeral home, its hard to believe that LE had collected all possible DNA evidence in such a short time frame between the discovery of the bodies and their removal from the house. Especially since the PI's indicated that LE had missed collecting some DNA evidence.
By the way, I forgot to include he plant people as also accessing the house.

Aside from any DNA found on the clothing they wore, their bodies, at the crime scene/s or from items believed to have been connected to the murders, I think it’d be impossible to attempt to collect DNA from all areas of a 12,000 sq ft home. For one thing, DNA is not visible to the naked eye nor is DNA time stamped to prove it had any connection to the date of the murders. For all we know the medical examiners from Coroner’s Office may’ve removed their protective garb immediately prior to exiting the home. Typically areas are “cleared” section by section during an investigation and access to and from a residence would be near the first I’d think.

Collecting DNA -
How DNA Evidence Works
“When investigators find a piece of evidence, they place it in a paper bag or envelope, not in a plastic bag. This is important because plastic bags retain moisture, which can damage DNA. Direct sunlight and warmer conditions may also damage DNA, so officers try to keep biological materials at room temperature. They label the bags with information about what the material is, where it was found and where it will be transported. These are chain-of-custody procedures, which ensure the legal integrity of the samples as they move from collection to analysis.

Analysis occurs in a forensic laboratory, the topic of our next section...”
 
Aside from any DNA found on the clothing they wore, their bodies, at the crime scene/s or from items believed to have been connected to the murders, I think it’d be impossible to attempt to collect DNA from all areas of a 12,000 sq ft home. For one thing, DNA is not visible to the naked eye nor is DNA time stamped to prove it had any connection to the date of the murders. For all we know the medical examiners from Coroner’s Office may’ve removed their protective garb immediately prior to exiting the home. Typically areas are “cleared” section by section during an investigation and access to and from a residence would be near the first I’d think.

Collecting DNA -
How DNA Evidence Works
“When investigators find a piece of evidence, they place it in a paper bag or envelope, not in a plastic bag. This is important because plastic bags retain moisture, which can damage DNA. Direct sunlight and warmer conditions may also damage DNA, so officers try to keep biological materials at room temperature. They label the bags with information about what the material is, where it was found and where it will be transported. These are chain-of-custody procedures, which ensure the legal integrity of the samples as they move from collection to analysis.

Analysis occurs in a forensic laboratory, the topic of our next section...”

Thanks. It's a long way from the swimming pool to the front door, so I don't know how they could have cleared the DNA all that way in that limited amount of time. I just find the no booties strange since the policeman inside the door that is following the gurney outside still has his booties on. Why would the 2 gurneymen remove theirs (while still in the house) and he keeps his on? Why not keep them on until you are outside? The cop outside also has no booties.

Question for someone who might know. If these 2 gurneymen were from the funeral home, would they have to have head coverings on in accordance with Jewish tradition? It appears the front guy is not wearing any headcovering. This might be a clue where these 2 guys were from.
 
Question for someone who might know. If these 2 gurneymen were from the funeral home, would they have to have head coverings on in accordance with Jewish tradition? It appears the front guy is not wearing any headcovering. This might be a clue where these 2 guys were from.

As JDG pointed out in an earlier reply, the men in the photo are not from a funeral home. The Ontario Coroners Office is responsible for conducting death investigations and that office is also responsible for removing the bodies in order for them to conduct the autopsies. Only after that process is completed are the bodies released to a funeral home of the families choosing. If you were thinking autopsies are conducted after the bodies are taken to a funeral home, that isn’t so.

Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of the Solicitor General
 
Thanks. It's a long way from the swimming pool to the front door, so I don't know how they could have cleared the DNA all that way in that limited amount of time. I just find the no booties strange since the policeman inside the door that is following the gurney outside still has his booties on. Why would the 2 gurneymen remove theirs (while still in the house) and he keeps his on? Why not keep them on until you are outside? The cop outside also has no booties.

Question for someone who might know. If these 2 gurneymen were from the funeral home, would they have to have head coverings on in accordance with Jewish tradition? It appears the front guy is not wearing any headcovering. This might be a clue where these 2 guys were from.


The no booties is not strange at all. The men pulling the gurney are stepping out into December weather, there was snow, ice and you can see the salt has been applied in the photo. As stated earlier, they may have removed their booties just before opening the doors. One would not go outside with them on and the police officer wearing them is just accompanying them to the door, then likely closing it. There is an 'outside' officer guarding the door so the crime scene is secured.
 
The no booties is not strange at all. The men pulling the gurney are stepping out into December weather, there was snow, ice and you can see the salt has been applied in the photo. As stated earlier, they may have removed their booties just before opening the doors. One would not go outside with them on and the police officer wearing them is just accompanying them to the door, then likely closing it. There is an 'outside' officer guarding the door so the crime scene is secured.

tks. The point from an earlier posting was to just point out the large number of people that had access to the house and/or crime scene while DNA was still being collected. These 2 men, whether from the coroner or the funeral home, were just 2 of the many people that we know of that had such access. Are there people that we don't know about yet? Perhaps.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
80
Guests online
1,620
Total visitors
1,700

Forum statistics

Threads
590,011
Messages
17,928,977
Members
228,038
Latest member
shmoozie
Back
Top