Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[minazoe]

I bet he thought he was real slick too...blending..getting away with it..his secret...his disguise, his hidden instruments and tools. ..oh yeah he was having quite a time for himself... it was all very exciting, it was all working out, he was successful and was satisfied with his ruse.

He's well hidden alright, he will also be on the prowl again. How about this..if we take the dates and find they are the reverse with Evansville, what would the next likely date be? Has it passed? Wonder if the police can find any patterns? Wonder why they don't warn the citizens of Delphi? This is the darkest and most sinister murder many have heard of in a long time.

it's very likely , like 99% that he will re-offend, so in my mind I don't think they really think this a local offender or they would be on him.

if they are on someone they ain't saying..but I just don't think so.

mOO

 

[Betty P]

Just thought I'd mention an arrest of someone from Hancock Co for child molestation. He was found in a small town in Missouri where some of us have been following the disappearance of an elderly woman.

Police say man accused of child molestation apprehended in Missouri | WTTV CBS4Indy

Highly unlikely its related, but just thought I would mention the perp and arrest since he committed his crimes in the general region of that part of IN.

What if the Bridge Guy is someone who took off after the crimes? What if he's someone who is comfortable traveling to small towns and doing his act to fit in with locals?

 

[Yemelyan]

Occam's razor stuff - I'd say that this perp is....

1) young - being young, easier to be 'under the radar' with regard to work or home life, maybe parents gone during day.....irregular work schedule & in general the modern acceptance of teens going through a 'stage' even a dark stage....wasn't long ago you worked, you worked for the family - you didn't loaf about with your music & movies & video games (no offense meant & believe it or not: I'm not some old fogie - though apparently I'm already a curmedgeon: so save your crumpets for tea lol)

2) He does not have a criminal record - this seems fairly obvious & is in keeping with the perp being young - maybe under 20, at least under 25 JMO

3) this case wasn't handled as it ought to have been: I don't blame LE too much: rural Indiana: two pre-barely-teens on well-trod trails go missing: who thinks they've been taken right off that trail & murdered in broad daylight, plenty of potential witnesses....etc etc (again, sounds like a young man, first time, crime to me)......

4) Any forensic evidence was degraded because LE did not find crime scene within hour, two, three at most: talking about outdoors crime scene - plus- I think it's plausible our perp went back

5) LE said this crime was specific to Abby & Libby & that the general public did not need to fear - that's incredibly interesting to me.
Either it is a goof (if 'oops' they're wrong) OR they KNOW that the perp targeted Abby & Libby: now: how could they KNOW that.....????
If they do know that: then that would lead to the perp.....right????

If this were a young person dressing in baggy clothes & appearing older (now being older looking may not have been their mojo necessarily) to kill - they were prepared that day

Why?

Why that day?

And if LE is right (& they better be with an entire community - & all of us frankly if serial killer - at possible risk) that Abby+Libby were the targets......then that perp knew all about them & prepared well in advance.....I find that hard to believe: but it's LE's statement that Abby+Libby were the targets that I have to go with it......
In which case: why has the perp not been arrested....?

NOW: imagine LE doesn't really truly mean what they say by saying there's no reason to fret & the killer was only after Abby+Libby - then: the reason the perp hasn't been caught are the previous reasons: young, no record, forensic evidence either paltry or degraded: at any rate: not usable

SO - that's where I am!
It hinges on that LE statement about the perp targeting Abby+Libby.......that's my wrench in the cog....otherwise: I am not that surprised that a perp could get away with it considering caveats/strictures already elucidated.....

JMO

Can you remind me of the statements that LE has made that stated they knew the crime was pre-specified to Abby and Libby with regard to targeting?

I am only aware of one statement that can be construed that way and that was public information officer (note his job title: he was head public information officer for the ISP, not an investigator on the case) Dave Bursten's at the first press conference. This would have been just a day or two after the bodies were found. He took questions after his portion of the conference and when a reporter asked if the girls were targeted, his response was (I'm paraphrasing a bit), "everything is on the table. There are really only two possibilities. Either this person didn't know they would be there that day and this was random - that's possible, but not likely - or he knew they would be there."

His "possible but not likely" comment seemed at odds with everything LE said after that point (or refused to say). The reporters involved with the Down the Hill podcast reached out to him directly for clarification. He has since retired from the ISP and he did not want to appear in the podcast but allowed them to use the quote that his statement that day represented his own personal opinion at the time and in no way reflects on the opinion of the current investigators.

So what are the other statements (that haven't been walked back) that reflect the viewpoint that these particular girls were targeted?

 

[minazoe]

some killers do stalk a victim/victims first, they pinpoint a victim and create a plan based on basic information..best time of day...when a house might be empty..when a subject might be alone...maybe even how they get around or where they will be based on the internet where you can find anything...drive by and get a name off a mailbox...I'm not saying BG did this but I don't see any good reason to rule it out either.

lets opine that BG could possibly be related to evansville..where again we have two young girls who are victims, I think if we are going to look at that possibility we have to accept that he may have carefully planned these murders, looks for a certain kind of victim/victims and may have stalked the girls and may have had prior knowledge of them.

if he is a serial killer, I expect him to move around..not all of them do--look at BTK, he killed right in his own neighborhood...but if an SK has a vehicle, I think he will prefer to commit his crimes away from home...

mOO

 

[Yemelyan]

some killers do stalk a victim/victims first, they pinpoint a victim and create a plan based on basic information..best time of day...when a house might be empty..when a subject might be alone...maybe even how they get around or where they will be based on the internet where you can find anything...drive by and get a name off a mailbox...I'm not saying BG did this but I don't see any good reason to rule it out either.

lets opine that BG could possibly be related to evansville..where again we have two young girls who are victims, I think if we are going to look at that possibility we have to accept that he may have carefully planned these murders, looks for a certain kind of victim/victims and may have stalked the girls and may have had prior knowledge of them.

if he is a serial killer, I expect him to move around..not all of them do--look at BTK, he killed right in his own neighborhood...but if an SK has a vehicle, I think he will prefer to commit his crimes away from home...

mOO

Some interesting points and assumptions here.

Offenders who stalk a stranger and target them often kill their victims inside the victim's own residences...as you say, they've made an effort to know when their target is alone, what her usual routine is. When these targeted victims are abducted in outdoor public areas, they are often in the course of their usual, predictable routines (going to work, gym, etc). This was not the situation in Delphi but perhaps allowances can be made for outliers.

The majority of serial killers don't move around from geographic area to geographic area. It's actually pretty rare for a serial killer to commit murders in more than one state unless they themselves change residences during the course of their "career." Notable exceptions are the drifter type killers who are always on the move (in a way Israel Keyes fits this type) and those who travel as part of their occupation.

You wouldn't expect investigators to be saying anything at this stage if they really thought there was a chance the Iowa case is connected. However, from what is publicly known about the cases, IMO there are some notable differences. The main one to me is how the victims were transported from the initial contact site in the Iowa case and how far their bodies ended up from where they were last seen. They were taken from a relatively populated area to a very remote one but if you look at crime scene pictures their bodies were placed not far off the access road that vehicles drove on in the park. One victim was apparently left farther into the brush and one (perhaps the heavier one) closer to this road. So this scenario is more like a body dump situation than what Delphi seems to be and is a significant difference from an investigative standpoint. LE may also know there are differences in how the girls were killed or in signatures like bindings. I don't think there is enough information publicly known to draw any firm conclusions on a connection between this case and Delphi. But that's JMO.

 

[Yemelyan]

I bet he thought he was real slick too...blending..getting away with it..his secret...his disguise, his hidden instruments and tools. ..oh yeah he was having quite a time for himself... it was all very exciting, it was all working out, he was successful and was satisfied with his ruse.

mOO

RSBM.

I would agree that a voyeur fantasy is a big part of this crime. He likely "acted out" everything but the actual abduction and murder many times on other days with other unsuspecting people before the day when he actually carried it out.

He watched his victims before he approached them.

He's watching the investigators now. He wants to know what they know, but also he's enjoying the feeling that they haven't caught him yet.

IMO.

 

[TheVisual]

some killers do stalk a victim/victims first, they pinpoint a victim and create a plan based on basic information..best time of day...when a house might be empty..when a subject might be alone...maybe even how they get around or where they will be based on the internet where you can find anything...drive by and get a name off a mailbox...I'm not saying BG did this but I don't see any good reason to rule it out either.

lets opine that BG could possibly be related to evansville..where again we have two young girls who are victims, I think if we are going to look at that possibility we have to accept that he may have carefully planned these murders, looks for a certain kind of victim/victims and may have stalked the girls and may have had prior knowledge of them.

if he is a serial killer, I expect him to move around..not all of them do--look at BTK, he killed right in his own neighborhood...but if an SK has a vehicle, I think he will prefer to commit his crimes away from home...

mOO

Isn't it Evansdale?

 

[minazoe]

yes "Evansdale".. ..thanks I stand corrected.

 

[Marzipan]

RSBM.

I would agree that a voyeur fantasy is a big part of this crime. He likely "acted out" everything but the actual abduction and murder many times on other days with other unsuspecting people before the day when he actually carried it out.

He watched his victims before he approached them.

He's watching the investigators now. He wants to know what they know, but also he's enjoying the feeling that they haven't caught him yet.

IMO.

I am curious to know whether or not you think they have him in their sights — so whether he’s enjoying just that they haven’t caught him yet or enjoying that they’re not onto him yet. You’ve probably told us all your thought on this already but I can’t remember.

 

[Marzipan]

I like this idea. Unfortunately I don’t think the video/photo of the BG is anywhere close to clear enough for face recognition software to work it’s magic.
I would hope that LE has scoured all the security video in that area looking for someone dressed like BG at least.

Those of you who followed from the start, was LE making open public calls in the beginning for any and all security video from the region?

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Some interesting points and assumptions here.

Offenders who stalk a stranger and target them often kill their victims inside the victim's own residences...as you say, they've made an effort to know when their target is alone, what her usual routine is. When these targeted victims are abducted in outdoor public areas, they are often in the course of their usual, predictable routines (going to work, gym, etc). This was not the situation in Delphi but perhaps allowances can be made for outliers.

The majority of serial killers don't move around from geographic area to geographic area. It's actually pretty rare for a serial killer to commit murders in more than one state unless they themselves change residences during the course of their "career." Notable exceptions are the drifter type killers who are always on the move (in a way Israel Keyes fits this type) and those who travel as part of their occupation.

You wouldn't expect investigators to be saying anything at this stage if they really thought there was a chance the Iowa case is connected. However, from what is publicly known about the cases, IMO there are some notable differences. The main one to me is how the victims were transported from the initial contact site in the Iowa case and how far their bodies ended up from where they were last seen. They were taken from a relatively populated area to a very remote one but if you look at crime scene pictures their bodies were placed not far off the access road that vehicles drove on in the park. One victim was apparently left farther into the brush and one (perhaps the heavier one) closer to this road. So this scenario is more like a body dump situation than what Delphi seems to be and is a significant difference from an investigative standpoint. LE may also know there are differences in how the girls were killed or in signatures like bindings. I don't think there is enough information publicly known to draw any firm conclusions on a connection between this case and Delphi. But that's JMO.

I think it’s possible there was a SK in the Midwest. He does move from state to state because he can’t keep regular employment for some reason. This angers him but he can’t stop himself. He has to be stopped by LE and I think they have someone in their sights. When he is between jobs he hunts for his ideal little girl victims. I hope he is identified and caught before he acts again in another state. He thinks he is home free now because he hasn’t been arrested but the Texas Rangers have him in their sights imo.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Those of you who followed from the start, was LE making open public calls in the beginning for any and all security video from the region?

l personally don’t remember LE asking for security videos or talking about obtaining them early on. I think earlier this year was the first time I heard them even mention it...maybe in one of the podcasts....I don’t remember exactly. Somebody maybe knows more. It’s definitely not been much said.

 

[MistyWaters]

l personally don’t remember LE asking for security videos or talking about obtaining them early on. I think earlier this year was the first time I heard them even mention it...maybe in one of the podcasts....I don’t remember exactly. Somebody maybe knows more. It’s definitely not been much said.

I recall early on LE canvassing for video but I can’t find the link. Then came discussion here about the smalltown size of Delphi and the location of the high bridge trail, it’d probably less likely cameras would be common in 2017, maybe more so now. But if LE discovered any useful information, they didn’t say.

More recently it was mentioned by one of ABC’s talking heads although this may’ve just been his opinion as well.

'Epitome of evil': Delphi double murder still a mystery 3 years later
“But this case also has some limitations, according to Garrett (former FBI agent) who said the hiking trail is too far off the beaten path for police to track people's movements there by traffic and surveillance cameras.”

 

[Yemelyan]

I am curious to know whether or not you think they have him in their sights — so whether he’s enjoying just that they haven’t caught him yet or enjoying that they’re not onto him yet. You’ve probably told us all your thought on this already but I can’t remember.

Hopefully they've held enough facts about their evidence and about their investigation in confidence so that he isn't sure what they have on him other than the video/audio. If they've interviewed him or someone close to him, then he knows more.

I go back and forth on my opinion whether they still have a specific name/shortlist of names in mind or if they have no name. IMO they still have a lot of information to work with.

 

[sunshineray]

Can you remind me of the statements that LE has made that stated they knew the crime was pre-specified to Abby and Libby with regard to targeting?

I am only aware of one statement that can be construed that way and that was public information officer (note his job title: he was head public information officer for the ISP, not an investigator on the case) Dave Bursten's at the first press conference. This would have been just a day or two after the bodies were found. He took questions after his portion of the conference and when a reporter asked if the girls were targeted, his response was (I'm paraphrasing a bit), "everything is on the table. There are really only two possibilities. Either this person didn't know they would be there that day and this was random - that's possible, but not likely - or he knew they would be there."

His "possible but not likely" comment seemed at odds with everything LE said after that point (or refused to say). The reporters involved with the Down the Hill podcast reached out to him directly for clarification. He has since retired from the ISP and he did not want to appear in the podcast but allowed them to use the quote that his statement that day represented his own personal opinion at the time and in no way reflects on the opinion of the current investigators.

So what are the other statements (that haven't been walked back) that reflect the viewpoint that these particular girls were targeted?

I'm going to jump in here only because I had this saved. Sheriff Leazenby did say this, that there was "no ongoing danger...isolated to the victims" in this video. I'm sorry I don't have a time stamp.

 

[sunshineray]

I think it’s possible there was a SK in the Midwest. He does move from state to state because he can’t keep regular employment for some reason. This angers him but he can’t stop himself. He has to be stopped by LE and I think they have someone in their sights. When he is between jobs he hunts for his ideal little girl victims. I hope he is identified and caught before he acts again in another state. He thinks he is home free now because he hasn’t been arrested but the Texas Rangers have him in their sights imo.

Why TX? Is that where a POI of yours lives?

 

[MistyWaters]

Can you remind me of the statements that LE has made that stated they knew the crime was pre-specified to Abby and Libby with regard to targeting?

I am only aware of one statement that can be construed that way and that was public information officer (note his job title: he was head public information officer for the ISP, not an investigator on the case) Dave Bursten's at the first press conference. This would have been just a day or two after the bodies were found. He took questions after his portion of the conference and when a reporter asked if the girls were targeted, his response was (I'm paraphrasing a bit), "everything is on the table. There are really only two possibilities. Either this person didn't know they would be there that day and this was random - that's possible, but not likely - or he knew they would be there."

His "possible but not likely" comment seemed at odds with everything LE said after that point (or refused to say). The reporters involved with the Down the Hill podcast reached out to him directly for clarification. He has since retired from the ISP and he did not want to appear in the podcast but allowed them to use the quote that his statement that day represented his own personal opinion at the time and in no way reflects on the opinion of the current investigators.

So what are the other statements (that haven't been walked back) that reflect the viewpoint that these particular girls were targeted?

Drives me bonkers when I can’t find what I’m looking for but the word “targeted” has been used 100s of times on these threads. I do recall an LE interview on video about a year to two years after the murders, not newsprint, where the officer being interviewed used the word “targeted”. But his usage wasn’t specific enough to know if he meant the girls were targeted in advance of going to the trail OR targeted after they were sighted by a killer with premeditated intent to seek out one or more victims that afternoon. To quote your words from another post - “He watched his victims before he approached them.” In the later example, the girls were targeted after they were sighted.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Why TX? Is that where a POI of yours lives?

Yes. He has moved 3 times since he worked in Delphi area.

 

[sunshineray]

I recall early on LE canvassing for video but I can’t find the link. Then came discussion here about the smalltown size of Delphi and the location of the high bridge trail, it’d probably less likely cameras would be common in 2017, maybe more so now. But if LE discovered any useful information, they didn’t say.

More recently it was mentioned by one of ABC’s talking heads although this may’ve just been his opinion as well.

'Epitome of evil': Delphi double murder still a mystery 3 years later
“But this case also has some limitations, according to Garrett (former FBI agent) who said the hiking trail is too far off the beaten path for police to track people's movements there by traffic and surveillance cameras.”

There was this said but doesn't mention bussiness or home video cams.

"Officers are asking anyone who may have taken pictures in the area or was just on the trail to contact authorities immediately."

Police ask for assistance in identifying man seen walking on trail where Delphi teens went missing | Fox 59

 

[sunshineray]

Yes. He has moved 3 times since he worked in Delphi area.

Interesting...thanks.