Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[MistyWaters]

Snipped and BBM

I think more information would be helpful, especially since LE keeps asking for the public’s help.

Wasn't the last time that LE offically asked the public for help at the April 2019 press conference?

Even then they didn’t really ask the public for help, if that means helping them with investigative ideas. They wanted a tip from somebody who is able to identify the suspect.

 

[sunshineray]

I know I'd love to hear at least some details about why BOTH sketches were not released in Feb 2017. They were both drawn in the days following the murders based on persons seen by witnesses in the area. So, why did LE opt to prioritize one over the other at the beginning of the investigation? Why not release both and, if either of the men portrayed in those sketches was there but innocent, he might have come forward? WHY the complete turnaround to dismiss the first sketch and to focus the investigation instead on the person portrayed in the second sketch released over two years after it was drawn?

Did LE find the man portrayed in the first sketch released and he had some kind of solid alibi?

Did LE find the man portrayed in the first sketch and he was working there that day with the man portrayed in the second sketch, but it was under coercion or he had no idea the other guy was going to so far as to commit murders?

Was the man portrayed in the first sketch working with LE beginning in April 2019, when the second sketch was released?

Did the witness from whose memory the first sketch was drawn retract her claims to have seen the man portrayed in the first sketch on the trails that day? And if so, why?

ETA: To ask for the people of the community of Delphi and nearby communities to look closely at those in their families, neighborhoods, community, work or school or vendor associations and to turn in a tip about them if they sound like, walk like, have a posture like, or resemble the sketches or the shot from LG's video or the video itself without SOME reasonable explanation about why they were at one time looking for a face that looks like that portrayed in Sketch One, but now are looking for a face that looks like that portrayed in Sketch Two seems a very lot to ask. Under those circumstances, tips about more distant associations would seem more likely than tips about close associations. And perhaps if LE revealed WHY the switch, that explanation itself may point to someone. (Such as if he bullied someone else who had a compromised reputation to participate.)

So would I like to know some things about those sketches and such but have to remind myself...to disclose to the public certain things about an investigation can also be fodder to future defense attorneys and hinder prosecutors. It really can be a slippery slope for LE...to divulge the whys or hows. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Even then they didn’t really ask the public for help, if that means helping them with investigative ideas. They wanted a tip from somebody who is able to identify the suspect.

They asked for help with the investigation into the murders. They asked to be informed on killer's identity and a car's location. I don't know what you mean by "ideas". Tips are ideas, hopefully informed ideas.

 

[Charlot123]

I know I'd love to hear at least some details about why BOTH sketches were not released in Feb 2017. They were both drawn in the days following the murders based on persons seen by witnesses in the area. So, why did LE opt to prioritize one over the other at the beginning of the investigation? Why not release both and, if either of the men portrayed in those sketches was there but innocent, he might have come forward? WHY the complete turnaround to dismiss the first sketch and to focus the investigation instead on the person portrayed in the second sketch released over two years after it was drawn?

Did LE find the man portrayed in the first sketch released and he had some kind of solid alibi?

Did LE find the man portrayed in the first sketch and he was working there that day with the man portrayed in the second sketch, but it was under coercion or he had no idea the other guy was going to so far as to commit murders?

Was the man portrayed in the first sketch working with LE beginning in April 2019, when the second sketch was released?

Did the witness from whose memory the first sketch was drawn retract her claims to have seen the man portrayed in the first sketch on the trails that day? And if so, why?

ETA: To ask for the people of the community of Delphi and nearby communities to look closely at those in their families, neighborhoods, community, work or school or vendor associations and to turn in a tip about them if they sound like, walk like, have a posture like, or resemble the sketches or the shot from LG's video or the video itself without SOME reasonable explanation about why they were at one time looking for a face that looks like that portrayed in Sketch One, but now are looking for a face that looks like that portrayed in Sketch Two seems a very lot to ask. Under those circumstances, tips about more distant associations would seem more likely than tips about close associations. And perhaps if LE revealed WHY the switch, that explanation itself may point to someone. (Such as if he bullied someone else who had a compromised reputation to participate.)

I sometimes thing that the Delphians suffer from huge Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, and are trying to cope with it.

We don’t know the details, but they, they must have heard more. Huge trauma for the community, horror that befell well-known girls from the neighborhood. And then, think of the suspicion, and likely, the fear for own kids. Someone moved away, and probably, for a good reason.

I think that the Delphians are traumatized, fearful, and likely, embittered. This fear, this silence, can not last forever. Everyone needs to look at what he says, and what he does not say, and how it is viewed by the society.

Those of you who have read “the legends of Thyl Ulenspiegel and Lamme Goedzak” (the book based on the characters from 14th-century Netherlands), might remember the phrase “the ashes of my father beat against my heart”. (The hero’s father, was burned at stake for heresy. Thyl’s phrase implied - no normal life for him until justice is meted out.)

I think that everyone following this thread, everyone not indifferent to the case, can say the same, the ashes are beating against our hearts. Same for Delphi...and it needs to heal. But for this, the murderer must be named, and apprehended.

 

[Charlot123]

Here is a link to the ISP page That shows bg walking on the bridge.
ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

It looks to me like he steps forward with his left foot and then his right foot comes in and he kind of touches one ankle to the other before stepping forward on the right foot.
Am I explaining that clearly?
I have seen posters speculate that he is turning to walk toward one of the girls but could it be some weird OCD thing with as walk? If so, that would be something a person who knew him would definitely recognize regardless of whatever disguise or extra clothes he could be wearing.
I wondered what was meant when they asked the public to watch his mannerisms. I didn’t see any mannerisms in the very short clip they gave us. And I have thought that anything about his walk can be explained away by the condition of the bridge. But, I watched this clip last night and noticed it looks more like a deliberate sort of clicking his ankles together before he takes a step.

I thought he had OCD, maybe even tics. I still think so. The problem is, however, they could have cut out a piece with some details, so it looks like one step follows the other, and indeed, the gait seems ritualistic, but maybe there are several steps in the sequence that are lost.

 

[news buff]

Am confused. People are here because they want the case solved, right? I myself thought that I might get an idea from reading what others wrote and it would lead to avenues to ponder. There are people here now that seem to be saying that someone other than themselves seem to know things about this case and are not helping. Am still learning but this just seems odd. What is going on? Can someone please explain?

 

[Yemelyan]

I know I'd love to hear at least some details about why BOTH sketches were not released in Feb 2017. They were both drawn in the days following the murders based on persons seen by witnesses in the area. So, why did LE opt to prioritize one over the other at the beginning of the investigation? Why not release both and, if either of the men portrayed in those sketches was there but innocent, he might have come forward? WHY the complete turnaround to dismiss the first sketch and to focus the investigation instead on the person portrayed in the second sketch released over two years after it was drawn?

Did LE find the man portrayed in the first sketch released and he had some kind of solid alibi?

Did LE find the man portrayed in the first sketch and he was working there that day with the man portrayed in the second sketch, but it was under coercion or he had no idea the other guy was going to so far as to commit murders?

Was the man portrayed in the first sketch working with LE beginning in April 2019, when the second sketch was released?

Did the witness from whose memory the first sketch was drawn retract her claims to have seen the man portrayed in the first sketch on the trails that day? And if so, why?

ETA: To ask for the people of the community of Delphi and nearby communities to look closely at those in their families, neighborhoods, community, work or school or vendor associations and to turn in a tip about them if they sound like, walk like, have a posture like, or resemble the sketches or the shot from LG's video or the video itself without SOME reasonable explanation about why they were at one time looking for a face that looks like that portrayed in Sketch One, but now are looking for a face that looks like that portrayed in Sketch Two seems a very lot to ask. Under those circumstances, tips about more distant associations would seem more likely than tips about close associations. And perhaps if LE revealed WHY the switch, that explanation itself may point to someone. (Such as if he bullied someone else who had a compromised reputation to participate.)

I understand why you (and all of us) would like to hear these details about why they switched but IMO they are never going to tell us before they go to trial, and probably for a very good reason.

Think about any of the scenarios you proposed for why they switched their focus. Once they announce to the public that any of those scenarios took place (the witness retracted a statement for example), it's out there for 1. The POI to know 2. A future defense attorney to know 3. The public, from which a jury pool will eventually be drawn, to know. And any of these, IMO, negatively affects their ability to bring a future case to trial or try it successfully.

 

[Yemelyan]

They asked for help with the investigation into the murders. They asked to be informed on killer's identity and a car's location. I don't know what you mean by "ideas". Tips are ideas, hopefully informed ideas.

LE actually released a list of what was considered a "good tip," as opposed to "investigative ideas," which they made it clear were no longer wanted. Police sort through more than 1,000 tips after releasing new information in Delphi murders

They want name, age, and connection to Delphi.


IMO the tipline was full of "tips" like "I saw a man in a blue coat like that one at a Wal-Mart in California" (this contains no actionable information as to link to Delphi or identity). I think a lot of their tips, maybe the majority, were investigative ideas like "have all traffic cameras been checked for the day in question?" Or, "have you looked into bow hunters?" They don't need ideas like that at this point evidently.

 

[Justice101]

I understand why you (and all of us) would like to hear these details about why they switched but IMO they are never going to tell us before they go to trial, and probably for a very good reason.

Think about any of the scenarios you proposed for why they switched their focus. Once they announce to the public that any of those scenarios took place (the witness retracted a statement for example), it's out there for 1. The POI to know 2. A future defense attorney to know 3. The public, from which a jury pool will eventually be drawn, to know. And any of these, IMO, negatively affects their ability to bring a future case to trial or try it successfully.

Me too. I hope it's not just people here want to be the hero.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I thought he had OCD, maybe even tics. I still think so. The problem is, however, they could have cut out a piece with some details, so it looks like one step follows the other, and indeed, the gait seems ritualistic, but maybe there are several steps in the sequence that are lost.

I have seen OCD up close and personal for the last 17 years.
My opinion, you cannot diagnose OCD based on watching a couple seconds of someone walking on a perilous rundown bridge.
His gait looks “ritualistic” because we are watching a two second video that is looped to restart and plays over and over, not because this guy has OCD.
BG may end up having OCD. He may also have six toes on one foot, be colorblind, or dozens of other things, but, like OCD, those can’t be known from looking at that video.

 

[minazoe]

I think we can all agree that we know absolutely nothing about BG, except that which we have observed.

a possible crease in his blue jeans
a possible disguise
he has a coat and jeans that seem to be concealing many things even gun/guns
may have been wearing a go pro camera ( from the image)
has a possible belt /fanny pack on

that's it.

I also know that it is not unusual for SK's to present with disorders such as OCD, due to control issues. also common with sadists..so not such a reach to think it may be possible. It could be important and would be great if the profilers would come out with their profile..the more pieces you can contribute to one suspect..the closer you may get to revealing him.

mOO

 

[JnRyan]

I believe the facts will be somewhat simple when this killer is finally caught. Some of the complexity to this case comes from LE themselves. Things such as being coy about whether or not LE actually has DNA and, if so, is it from the killer. Then the sketches. First one sketch then another one 2 years later while stating the first sketch is no longer relevant. Then the ISP superintendent states, less than a month after a month after the April 2019 PC, 'that a sketch is not a photo' and the 'killer may look like something in between the two sketches'. (So based on that is the first sketch still in play?)

The video and audio aren't extensive enough for the vast majority of us to recognize anything, but hopefully someone close to this guy will. Unfortunately, if this guy lives in a large city away from Delphi - say, Lafayette or Indianapolis or even Louisville KY - then it may be a larger leap of imagination for someone outside a family member to make the connection to the Delphi area. Further complicating matters, if this killer never actually lived in the area in the past but visited a relative - eg., aunt/uncle, grandparent - then that fact might not show in a resume or job application. I'm of the opinion this killer was not recognized in the months following the killings because he was not a resident of the Delphi area at the time of the killings.

I really don't know any other way other than having his DNA this case can be solved other than someone seeing something in the video or hear something in the audio. If this killer lives by himself no one who knows him might have any idea where he was on that day. He could have been unemployed. Some retail businesses open 7 days a week have employees who off during the weekdays. Monday is one of the slowest days of the week in the grocery business, for example.

I realize there is a possibility of a connection, however vague or strong, through some social media, but I believe it is most likely he never saw or heard of Abigail or Liberty prior to that day. Purely opportunistic crime and a killing by a stranger is the hardest to solve for LE. IOW, Abigail and Liberty were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Had they chose not to be on the bridge at that day and time and it was a classmate(s) of Abigail and Liberty, we might be following their murders instead.

Of course, he could have been suspected early on and with almost 60K in tips he is hidden in among the other thousands of tips. If that tip fell through the cracks or wasn't vetted hard enough by LE, the tipster might be thinking the person they called in was cleared.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I think we can all agree that we know absolutely nothing about BG, except that which we have observed.

a possible crease in his blue jeans
a possible disguise
he has a coat and jeans that seem to be concealing many things even gun/guns
may have been wearing a go pro camera ( from the image)
has a possible belt /fanny pack on

that's it.

I also know that it is not unusual for SK's to present with disorders such as OCD, due to control issues. also common with sadists..so not such a reach to think it may be possible. It could be important and would be great if the profilers would come out with their profile..the more pieces you can contribute to one suspect..the closer you may get to revealing him.

mOO

I completely agree we know nothing about BG except how each of us perceives he is dressed. We can’t tell what he’s thinking, what he was thinking, what he planned or didn’t plan, whether he likes the color blue, if he’s angry, had a bad childhood, is psychotic, is a genius, and everything else except how he is dressed. We can’t tell any of that from the still photo and we can’t tell any of it from the super short video.
I would argue that control issues defined by OCD are very different from those commonly seen in serial killers and the adjectives “obsessive” and “compulsive”, oftentimes used to describe certain behaviors by criminals are just that, only words being used to describe behavior. Those words used in that manner don’t really correlate with the reality of OCD or are not intended as diagnosis of OCD, but I am not here to advocate for any of that. My main point is no one can diagnose this guy from the pictures we have.
I apologize getting frustrated with this. I will put myself in timeout.

 

[Justice101]

How many people here have walked on a rickety old railroad bridge like this? ( I hold my hand up). Walked across a couple of these over the James River and Maury River in Virginia.

The odd gait of BG is perfectly understandable. The distance between ties is too close to step one on one and too far to skip every other tie. it is very awkward. Then, you have vertigo looking thru the openings and seeing you are 30 feet above the water. It is pretty scary. I personally would not put any stock in whether he looks like he is walking directly toward the girls or has some sort of limp. I think each of us would look the same gait wise doing the same thing.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Tealgrove]

I stop in every now and then to see what we are all talking about but it is heartbreaking to see that we are no further ahead than we were several years ago.

After reading all the threads over the years, and thinking endlessly on possibilities, I think simplicity is the best way to go.

MOO - simply - BG was on a mission that day with a plan. I don't believe he chose to kill 2 girls at all. I think he planned to kill 1. He came across 2 girls and his excitement rose up to the temptation. He probably couldn't believe his luck. I believe he was looking for a young girl/teen. He came across two. The motive was definitely sexual.

I believe he passed them once, maybe said something, which is why when he came back Libby started filming. She was uneasy.

"The Gift of Fear"

I think he took some time before coming back to see who was around. When he determined that it was safe for him he moved in on the girls.

It wouldn't surprise me if only one of the girls was sexually assaulted. Time was not on his side. But a sexual motivation is up front for me.

Murder was definitely his plan.

I would bet that he was a stalker of sorts, peeping Tom, maybe had previously sexually assaulted someone or several people. He may not have murdered before but when he is eventually caught, and he will be, people will know him for his past transgressions. This was not his first rodeo.

I absolutely believe that this person has a connection to Delphi. He knew his way around, knew the Bridge, forced the girls "down the hill" and knew how to get away without being seen. His only mistake was not knowing that Libby was filming him.

He's either long gone, or "hiding in plain sight". It could go either way. His connection to Delphi may not be current. I've often gone "home" to check out the "old neighbourhood" for nostalgia sake.

In Ontario, the murder of Christine Jessop was just solved after 30 some odd years, but it was solved. I guarantee that this one will be solved as well. Jonelle Matthews' case was just solved recently. Advancement in forensics is occurring daily.

BG will be caught. I just hope I'm around to see it happen and that BG does end up in jail for a very long, if not indefinite period of time.

ETA: I am convinced that a family member or members suspect something but can't, or won't, come forward. MOO as well.

ALL MOO

 

[wary]

I didn’t follow this case from the beginning. Has anyone noticed possible suspects getting ‘cleared’ by LE in a way that would imply that LE does have DNA they can rely on?

In other words, if DNA on a nearby cigarette butt doesn’t match the DNA of a suspect, the suspect isn’t cleared. But if DNA from blood and tissue under a girl’s fingernails doesn’t match a suspect’s, the suspect IS cleared—unless there’s a believable two-person theory.

I know we can’t discuss DN—but I hope it’s okay to ask, in this context, if we know if LE lost interest in him because of DNA testing, or for some other reason? And the same question about previous people that LE showed interest in.

 

[minazoe]

On OCD...I think that the kind of OCD folks might be thinking of is the kind where. checking, counting, magical thinking, ritualistic behavior and fantasy, obsession with certain details, dates, combinations, patterns etc. are presented mOO

 

[wary]

How many people here have walked on a rickety old railroad bridge like this? ( I hold my hand up). Walked across a couple of these over the James River and Maury River in Virginia.

The odd gait of BG is perfectly understandable. The distance between ties is too close to step one on one and too far to skip every other tie. it is very awkward. Then, you have vertigo looking thru the openings and seeing you are 30 feet above the water. It is pretty scary. I personally would not put any stock in whether he looks like he is walking directly toward the girls or has some sort of limp. I think each of us would look the same gait wise doing the same thing.

Just my 2 cents worth.

No, I wouldn’t look at all like that, gait-wise. I’d be flat on my belly, crawling, and hanging on for dear life.

 

[Tealgrove]

No, I wouldn’t look at all like that, gait-wise. I’d be flat on my belly, crawling, and hanging on for dear life.

Me too. I started to cross the Capilano Suspension Bridge in BC. Took 3 steps and said no way. I couldn't do it.

 

[Yemelyan]

I didn’t follow this case from the beginning. Has anyone noticed possible suspects getting ‘cleared’ by LE in a way that would imply that LE does have DNA they can rely on?

In other words, if DNA on a nearby cigarette butt doesn’t match the DNA of a suspect, the suspect isn’t cleared. But if DNA from blood and tissue under a girl’s fingernails doesn’t match a suspect’s, the suspect IS cleared—unless there’s a believable two-person theory.

I know we can’t discuss DN—but I hope it’s okay to ask, in this context, if we know if LE lost interest in him because of DNA testing, or for some other reason? And the same question about previous people that LE showed interest in.

LE have not said who they've cleared, they always use verbiage like "we are not interested in him at this time." However, we do know that they've asked people to submit DNA, they've requested DNA from at least one autopsy (why would they do that if they had zero to compare it to?) and other people have volunteered it.

This is purely my opinion but I think it's likely they have at least enough information from DNA to rule some people out. I think it's likely this is how some local-ish sex offenders were excluded.

Edited to add...they can still "cover" possible suspects through a combination of things like phone location data and work records, etc. Example, if you work in an automotive plant and you are recorded on CCTV during your entire shift from 8-5 on 2/13/17, LE has strong evidence to cover you. So they may also be excluding people based on the inability to put them near the crime scene location on the day in question.