UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

[Kasmeer]

Horrible, if she's guilty; I've seen documentaries about Beverley Allitt and this sounds even worse, at least if the numbers quoted are anything to go by. I'd hoped after Allitt that it'd be much harder for such a thing to happen again. And yet it's got this far, after over five years' investigation, which I'd hope means they've very carefully investigated everything, and are so more likely than not to be correct in these charges.

Frankly I still hope she's not guilty, as it's far less upsetting to think of a tragic unfortunate group of innocent deaths via natural causes, than to imagine a serial killer in the one place you most expect babies to be cared for and safe

 

[Eloise]

She's either an absolute monster of the highest order, or she's taking the blame for systemic failures that aren't of her (sole) doing. The fact that the police have been investigating for so long makes me think they must have solid evidence it's the former.

Medics launched an internal inquiry after finding the premature babies had collapsed with heart and lung failure but were unusually impossible to resuscitate.

A report later found the babies developed strange blotches on their arms and legs after death.

Experts could not find a cause of death and police were called in to investigate in 2017.

BBM. I guess this is why... if she was the nurse of all these babies (do neonatal units have nurses working in 1:1 ratio with premature babies?) then the pattern is going to be hard to ignore even if the hospital overall has issues.

Who is nurse Lucy Letby and why was she charged?

Can someone familiar with nursing/neonatal nursing say if it's possible it's just incompetence of a very negligent and tragic extreme?

 

[AllyBeeUK]

Lucy Letby is appearing at Warrington Magistrates Court via video link. Media access to the court is restricted due to social distancing.

Follow live updates:

<modsnip: Link removed as names of victims were later banned from publication by the Court>

 

[AllyBeeUK]

Names of alleged victims have been released, including what appears to be a brother and sister. Twins. Deepest condolences to the families concerned

 

[AllyBeeUK]

"The judge has confirmed that the case is being sent to Chester Crown Court and Letby will appear tomorrow at 2.15pm.

She has been remanded in custody and is expected to appear at tomorrow’s crown court hearing tomorrow."

 

[JosieJo]

She's either an absolute monster of the highest order, or she's taking the blame for systemic failures that aren't of her (sole) doing. The fact that the police have been investigating for so long makes me think they must have solid evidence it's the former.



BBM. I guess this is why... if she was the nurse of all these babies (do neonatal units have nurses working in 1:1 ratio with premature babies?) then the pattern is going to be hard to ignore even if the hospital overall has issues.

Who is nurse Lucy Letby and why was she charged?

Can someone familiar with nursing/neonatal nursing say if it's possible it's just incompetence of a very negligent and tragic extreme?

s

I work in nhs nursing ...it would be very unlikely that the same nurse works with the same babies every shift.
They may try to do this for continuity of care but with such varying levels of staff shortages and depending on the number of senior staff and levels of sick babies its impossible really to do

I think if negligence it would be picked up quicker and easier dealt with ...the numbers and length of time the investigation took id say it leans towards sudden collapse of an unknown cause at the time

 

[arrogantcat]

Have there been any details of the specific ages of the babies affected? It excuses nothing, but I wonder if there was an agenda here about not saving extremely premature babies.

Outcomes for extremely premature babies are often very poor - lifelong physical and intellectual disability, often some quite pronounced suffering - and there is some debate in the medical community about when it is and isn’t fair and appropriate to the child to try and preserve life. Of course, normally that means reducing suffering and perhaps deciding not to offer supportive care at birth, as a care team - whatever agenda she had here was clearly wildly off the rails, and inexcusable. I suppose I’m just trying to find some sense in it all somewhere.

 

[BGoodwin94]

Cheshire Police have charged Lucy Letby with 8 counts of murder and 10 counts of attempted murder.

This was the first case that I had read when I joined back in 2018, even having multiple emails back and for with Cheshire Constabulary for information. Of course, they didn't give any out. I am shocked to see that they have charged her after all this time, however I don't agree with people who have 'alleged' to have committed a crime be named until proven guilty.

It's a really sad case and I hope the truth will out for everyone.

 

[SpursGyal]

Have there been any details of the specific ages of the babies affected? It excuses nothing, but I wonder if there was an agenda here about not saving extremely premature babies.

Outcomes for extremely premature babies are often very poor - lifelong physical and intellectual disability, often some quite pronounced suffering - and there is some debate in the medical community about when it is and isn’t fair and appropriate to the child to try and preserve life. Of course, normally that means reducing suffering and perhaps deciding not to offer supportive care at birth, as a care team - whatever agenda she had here was clearly wildly off the rails, and inexcusable. I suppose I’m just trying to find some sense in it all somewhere.

All children were under 1.
They were all in neonatal unit I believe, so I would imagine, very young babies

 

[Supernovae]

The fact that the police have been investigating for so long makes me think they must have solid evidence it's the former.

The other possibility is that there isn't a smoking gun but it's got to a point where the case just isn't going to get any stronger so they've decided to go for it.

 

[Scorpiette]

I'm just wondering....if there were no postmortems done on the poor babies, then it would be difficult to prove anything.
However, LL has been charged with 'attempting' to murder other babies, I wonder if this is where the evidence is coming from...from the little ones that survived (blood tests etc).

 

[AllyBeeUK]

I'm just wondering....if there were no postmortems done on the poor babies, then it would be difficult to prove anything.
However, LL has been charged with 'attempting' to murder other babies, I wonder if this is where the evidence is coming from...from the little ones that survived (blood tests etc).

Quite possibly. I've heard rumours about what it might have been, but I don't think I can repeat them here. Will be interesting to see if she enters a plea tomorrow and if the case goes to trial, what evidence will come out. Until then, we can't possibly know.

 

[meanmaryjean]

All children were under 1.
They were all in neonatal unit I believe, so I would imagine, very young babies

If the NHS holds similar standards as US hospitals, these babies never went home from the hospital after birth. In the US, once a newborn is discharged home they are considered (relatively speaking of course) 'dirty' and ineligible to return to the NICU. Even if they were only home a day or less, we would re-admit them to the Pediatric ICU or General Peds if they had left the hospital - never NICU.

However, babies can REMAIN in NICU a year or more. I used to have a home care client who spent 15 months in NICU. He went home on a ventilator. He's eight years old now and plays baseball (rather well!) and has never been readmitted to the hospital except for a sleep study.

 

[Pimlipo]

What evidence do people think the police could have been looking for when they were checking drain pipes and digging in the garden during the house search?

 

[Eloise]

s

I work in nhs nursing ...it would be very unlikely that the same nurse works with the same babies every shift.
They may try to do this for continuity of care but with such varying levels of staff shortages and depending on the number of senior staff and levels of sick babies its impossible really to do

I think if negligence it would be picked up quicker and easier dealt with ...the numbers and length of time the investigation took id say it leans towards sudden collapse of an unknown cause at the time

On a given shift, is NICU care 1:1?

 

[meanmaryjean]

On a given shift, is NICU care 1:1?

Rarely. Usually 2 babies to one nurse for sick ones, and up to 4 babies per nurse for feeder/ growers (stable babies).

 

[MadameLalaurie]

I'm just wondering....if there were no postmortems done on the poor babies, then it would be difficult to prove anything.
However, LL has been charged with 'attempting' to murder other babies, I wonder if this is where the evidence is coming from...from the little ones that survived (blood tests etc).

I’ve read reports that the cause of death was never established , and that many of the babies developed strange marks on their bodies afterwards - it does make you wonder what evidence the police have and maybe a cause of death was established ie some form of poison ? Also , why would they be digging up her garden for human remains away from the hospital- surely she wouldn’t have smuggled our bodies ? The mind boggles .

 

[dotr]

rbbm.

image copyrightJulia Quenzler
image captionMs Letby spoke only to confirm her name, address and date of birth during the short hearing
Chester hospital baby deaths: Nurse Lucy Letby in court
''Ms Letby spoke only to confirm her name, address and date of birth during the 10-minute hearing.

Pascale Jones, prosecuting, told the court Ms Letby should be remanded into custody for her own safety.

She said: "The crown will also stress there is substantial grounds to believe for her own protection this defendant should be remanded into custody."

 

[Kemug]

I've been sort of following this for quite a while now, but had given up expecting anything to ever happen. I do hope Lucy didn't do this awful thing, but it now seems really obvious that someone did. She just looks so nice. And as a mother of middle-aged children, I feel so sorry for her parents too, not just the babies' mums.

 

[pickle26]

I wonder if they were searching her house for medication vials and syringes, or baby clothing/items she may have kept? Hopefully no one else was involved too, and they weren't looking for say a second mobile phone.

We still don't know if she is guilty or not though until it goes to Court.