New to this case and new to the forum

[Userid]

Agree that the bodies were transported (a short distance) to the discovery site. I think the shoelaces were cut with Stevie's pocket knife and were used not for restraint but to ease transportation over two trips. That would explain the slightly different knots as well as Michael Moore being placed a little further away (2nd trip)

The knots would have never held for CB in transportation. He was tied with two half-hitches -- not strong knots. Also, this method would have actually made transporting the bodies harder. Why not just throw two boys over your shoulder, as opposed to simply relying on forearm strength? Plus the bindings were too long and the bodies would have most likely made contact with the ground.

With the exception of perhaps CB, the abrasions on the boys also suggest they were still alive when the bindings were applied. If they were still alive when the bindings were applied, the main goal was restraint instead of transportation. CB's abrasions were yellow, but the other two boys' were darker, more purple/red etc.

JM went to the police because he was going to provide a tip about someone who he thought may have been involved. fast forward to later that day and he's under arrest and considered a suspect. always found that interesting

JMB was rightfully looked at first because he was a parent of one of the victims. and with crimes like this involving kids, the parents are where you look first. which is why it's still puzzling they didn't even bat an eyelash at hobbs. JMB also had a shady past so another reason to look into him. DE had a troubled past and a reputation as well, but he had zero connection to the victims. jerry driver is the one who got the WMPD completely focused on echols because he had had it out for him for a long time and the murders finally gave him a reason to do whatever he could to put him away

You were fine (I was in relative agreement) until the line "Jerry Driver is the one who got WMPD completely focused on echols." I don't buy that. In all honesty, you're just regurgitating what the PL docs told you. Again, the WMPD thoroughly investigated many people way before they arrested the WM3. Driver was a guy who was trying to play police officer, sure, but there is zero evidence that he somehow had such pull with the police department that they took him seriously to such an extent, if at all. I'm sure other people (Driver included) offered knee-jerk guesses of who they personally thought could have done it early in the investigation, that doesn't prove conspiracy.

 

[DHT1339]

The knots would have never held for CB in transportation. He was tied with two half-hitches -- not strong knots. Also, this method would have actually made transporting the bodies harder. Why not just throw two boys over your shoulder, as opposed to simply relying on forearm strength? Plus the bindings were too long and the bodies would have most likely made contact with the ground.

With the exception of perhaps CB, the abrasions on the boys also suggest they were still alive when the bindings were applied. If they were still alive when the bindings were applied, the main goal was restraint instead of transportation. CB's abrasions were yellow, but the other two boys' were darker, more purple/red etc.


You were fine (I was in relative agreement) until the line "Jerry Driver is the one who got WMPD completely focused on echols." I don't buy that. In all honesty, you're just regurgitating what the PL docs told you. Again, the WMPD thoroughly investigated many people way before they arrested the WM3. Driver was a guy who was trying to play police officer, sure, but there is zero evidence that he somehow had such pull with the police department that they took him seriously to such an extent, if at all. I'm sure other people (Driver included) offered knee-jerk guesses of who they personally thought could have done it early in the investigation, that doesn't prove conspiracy.

huh? i've only seen the first PL doc enough to remember it and as far as i know, there's no mention of jerry driver in it

but you're just being ignorant if you really believe that driver had no influence on the WMPD going after echols. driver and steve jones had been trying their hardest to find evidence of "devil worship" or "satanism" or whatever you want to call it in WM for a long time. once the murders happened, driver and jones finally had their "proof" that echols indeed was a satanist. all driver had to do was bring up his history with DE and it wouldn't have taken much to convince police in an ultra-conservative, hick town in 1993 that this crime had ties to satanism. the whole "satanic panic" thing was real, and WM was a classic example of a place where that was running rampant. after that, WMPD turned their complete focus on the WM3 and ignored others who could've been viable suspects

the day after the bodies were discovered, steve jones told lt. james sudbury that he believed the crime was part of some "cult sacrifice" (to which sudbury agreed) and that there was one person he knew who would've been capable of involvement in such a crime: Damien Echols. in fact, jones and sudbury visited echols at his home to interview him that same day. how can you question the influence driver/jones had on WMP with their whole satanism theory?

James Sudbury Report

 

[herb4]

Scott Ellington's reasoning was to save the state a large sum of money. Also, he knew he'd lose. No way he lets three child murderers out of prison if he believed in their guilt. The WM3's reasoning was easy and I'd have done the same thing. Get out of jail as quickly and as easily as possible rather than continue to rot in prison and place their fate in the hands of the Arkansas judicial system that's failed them time and time again.

I would have confessed to the Bonet murder and the Lindberg kidnapping if it meant I could get out after 20 damned years.

 

[herb4]

The knots would have never held for CB in transportation. He was tied with two half-hitches -- not strong knots. Also, this method would have actually made transporting the bodies harder. Why not just throw two boys over your shoulder, as opposed to simply relying on forearm strength? Plus the bindings were too long and the bodies would have most likely made contact with the ground.

Maybe knot (haha). Average weight for an 8 year old is 57 lbs and I agree that a shoelace can't support that much weight. But it's not the same thing as attaching a 57 lb weight to a single shoelace either. It'd be more about keeping the weight displaced and creating sort of handle; like carrying plastic grocery bags into the house.

Coming into contact with the ground wouldn't be an issue. If anything, it would help I would think. Then you could sort of drag them and the ground would help ease up on the tension.

As to "why not over the shoulder", I attempted to explain that. Haste, having to make two trips (3 bodies) and improvising at the scene, probably panicking and hopped on adrenaline and god knows what. But would you rather carry 2 sacks of grain on each shoulder or with a strap/handle with your arms perpendicular to the ground? Even a TV. Or think of small mattresses maybe - dead weight as it were - where the handles help you move them.

I disagree with your overall opinion on this case but I do know you're well versed in it and you're not stupid. Do we have information on how deep or abrasive the shoelace marks were around the wrist and ankle areas? Heavy marks might suggest them digging into the skin. One thing I refuse to do is view the autopsy photos (for a number of reasons).

...

Also, FWIW, when I first saw PL1 I actually thought they were guilty, primarily because I didn't understand false confessions very well. The film makers thought they were guilty too and that they were merely documenting this totally insane story involving 3 crazy killer teenagers in the deep south. The more I look at it (and I've read through Callahans, the books and watched all the films), the more it just doesn't add up for me and point to 3 teenagers. I've also followed, been a member of and engaged heavily on several message boards that are all basically dead now where I read a TON of links from supporters and non-supporters alike so I'm not just wandering in here shooting off my mouth either.

I know all the old players from the "guilty" camp (Farm, Rugstain, Tammy, etc.) and listened to quite a bit of what they had to say. Glad to see the case still being talked about.

One thing that goes unmentioned is: if these three kids really pulled this off and were capable of such a thing at such a young age, why haven't any of them done anything like this again? Or anything even close? I doubt life in prison would help their mental state(s) very much and, if they're guilty, their psychological issues would obviously run pretty deep and we'd be looking at 3 heavily psychopathic natural born killers here who would likely only get worse. Only trouble I've heard from any of them was Jessie getting a DWI I think.

Regarding Mark Byers' death: I haven't heard much about it. Did they do an autopsy or a toxicology report? Single car accident suggests to me either cardiac arrest or a DUI.

EDIT: Finally figured out this weird quoting interface.

 

[DHT1339]

Scott Ellington's reasoning was to save the state a large sum of money. Also, he knew he'd lose. No way he lets three child murderers out of prison if he believed in their guilt. The WM3's reasoning was easy and I'd have done the same thing. Get out of jail as quickly and as easily as possible rather than continue to rot in prison and place their fate in the hands of the Arkansas judicial system that's failed them time and time again.

I would have confessed to the Bonet murder and the Lindberg kidnapping if it meant I could get out after 20 damned years.

yup, if the state of AR had even the slightest bit of evidence connecting the WM3 to the murders, there is zero chance they would've let them go. still not sure how people argue against that. why would they admit they were wrong for no reason?

Maybe knot (haha). Average weight for an 8 year old is 57 lbs and I agree that a shoelace can't support that much weight. But it's not the same thing as attaching a 57 lb weight to a single shoelace either. It'd be more about keeping the weight displaced and creating sort of handle; like carrying plastic grocery bags into the house.

Coming into contact with the ground wouldn't be an issue. If anything, it would help I would think. Then you could sort of drag them and the ground would help ease up on the tension.

As to "why not over the shoulder", I attempted to explain that. Haste, having to make two trips (3 bodies) and improvising at the scene, probably panicking and hopped on adrenaline and god knows what. But would you rather carry 2 sacks of grain on each shoulder or with a strap/handle with your arms perpendicular to the ground? Even a TV. Or think of small mattresses maybe - dead weight as it were - where the handles help you move them.

I disagree with your overall opinion on this case but I do know you're well versed in it and you're not stupid. Do we have information on how deep or abrasive the shoelace marks were around the wrist and ankle areas? Heavy marks might suggest them digging into the skin. One thing I refuse to do is view the autopsy photos (for a number of reasons).

...

Also, FWIW, when I first saw PL1 I actually thought they were guilty, primarily because I didn't understand false confessions very well. The film makers thought they were guilty too and that they were merely documenting this totally insane story involving 3 crazy killer teenagers in the deep south. The more I look at it (and I've read through Callahans, the books and watched all the films), the more it just doesn't add up for me and point to 3 teenagers. I've also followed, been a member of and engaged heavily on several message boards that are all basically dead now where I read a TON of links from supporters and non-supporters alike so I'm not just wandering in here shooting off my mouth either.

I know all the old players from the "guilty" camp (Farm, Rugstain, Tammy, etc.) and listened to quite a bit of what they had to say. Glad to see the case still being talked about.

One thing that goes unmentioned is: if these three kids really pulled this off and were capable of such a thing at such a young age, why haven't any of them done anything like this again? Or anything even close? I doubt life in prison would help their mental state(s) very much and, if they're guilty, their psychological issues would obviously run pretty deep and we'd be looking at 3 heavily psychopathic natural born killers here who would likely only get worse. Only trouble I've heard from any of them was Jessie getting a DWI I think.

Regarding Mark Byers' death: I haven't heard much about it. Did they do an autopsy or a toxicology report? Single car accident suggests to me either cardiac arrest or a DUI.

EDIT: Finally figured out this weird quoting interface.

no autopsy or toxicology report that i could find

cardiac arrest, DUI, or falling asleep behind the wheel are really the only likely causes

 

[Userid]

huh? i've only seen the first PL doc enough to remember it and as far as i know, there's no mention of jerry driver in it

but you're just being ignorant if you really believe that driver had no influence on the WMPD going after echols. driver and steve jones had been trying their hardest to find evidence of "devil worship" or "satanism" or whatever you want to call it in WM for a long time. once the murders happened, driver and jones finally had their "proof" that echols indeed was a satanist. all driver had to do was bring up his history with DE and it wouldn't have taken much to convince police in an ultra-conservative, hick town in 1993 that this crime had ties to satanism. the whole "satanic panic" thing was real, and WM was a classic example of a place where that was running rampant. after that, WMPD turned their complete focus on the WM3 and ignored others who could've been viable suspects

the day after the bodies were discovered, steve jones told lt. james sudbury that he believed the crime was part of some "cult sacrifice" (to which sudbury agreed) and that there was one person he knew who would've been capable of involvement in such a crime: Damien Echols. in fact, jones and sudbury visited echols at his home to interview him that same day. how can you question the influence driver/jones had on WMP with their whole satanism theory?

James Sudbury Report

Driver appeared in multiple movies, PL3 and West of Memphis, so it's convenient you don't remember, assuming you saw those at some point.

You can say I'm ignorant, I can say you're gullible, because again, that angle wasn't immediately followed up on by the WM3. Look at the evidence. JMB was their prime suspect from the jump, not the WM3.

 

[Userid]

Maybe knot (haha). Average weight for an 8 year old is 57 lbs and I agree that a shoelace can't support that much weight. But it's not the same thing as attaching a 57 lb weight to a single shoelace either. It'd be more about keeping the weight displaced and creating sort of handle; like carrying plastic grocery bags into the house.

Coming into contact with the ground wouldn't be an issue. If anything, it would help I would think. Then you could sort of drag them and the ground would help ease up on the tension.

As to "why not over the shoulder", I attempted to explain that. Haste, having to make two trips (3 bodies) and improvising at the scene, probably panicking and hopped on adrenaline and god knows what. But would you rather carry 2 sacks of grain on each shoulder or with a strap/handle with your arms perpendicular to the ground? Even a TV. Or think of small mattresses maybe - dead weight as it were - where the handles help you move them.

I disagree with your overall opinion on this case but I do know you're well versed in it and you're not stupid. Do we have information on how deep or abrasive the shoelace marks were around the wrist and ankle areas? Heavy marks might suggest them digging into the skin. One thing I refuse to do is view the autopsy photos (for a number of reasons).

...

Also, FWIW, when I first saw PL1 I actually thought they were guilty, primarily because I didn't understand false confessions very well. The film makers thought they were guilty too and that they were merely documenting this totally insane story involving 3 crazy killer teenagers in the deep south. The more I look at it (and I've read through Callahans, the books and watched all the films), the more it just doesn't add up for me and point to 3 teenagers. I've also followed, been a member of and engaged heavily on several message boards that are all basically dead now where I read a TON of links from supporters and non-supporters alike so I'm not just wandering in here shooting off my mouth either.

I know all the old players from the "guilty" camp (Farm, Rugstain, Tammy, etc.) and listened to quite a bit of what they had to say. Glad to see the case still being talked about.

One thing that goes unmentioned is: if these three kids really pulled this off and were capable of such a thing at such a young age, why haven't any of them done anything like this again? Or anything even close? I doubt life in prison would help their mental state(s) very much and, if they're guilty, their psychological issues would obviously run pretty deep and we'd be looking at 3 heavily psychopathic natural born killers here who would likely only get worse. Only trouble I've heard from any of them was Jessie getting a DWI I think.

Regarding Mark Byers' death: I haven't heard much about it. Did they do an autopsy or a toxicology report? Single car accident suggests to me either cardiac arrest or a DUI.

EDIT: Finally figured out this weird quoting interface.

A lot of things in this post don't add up for me. Putting two bodies over each shoulder would have been the same -- and easier, physically -- in saving time compared to carrying two victims with the shoelaces serving as handles -- he still would have had to make at least two trips (if not for the 3 victims, definitely for the two bikes). In fact, the killer would have wasted more time in de-lacing the shoes and tying each victim. Second, again, carrying limp bodies this way would have put unnecessary strain on the forearms, when the shoulders would have been more logical to use. Third, you can see the slack (for lack of a better word) in the bindings, that show the bodies would have hit the ground.

 

[DHT1339]

Driver appeared in multiple movies, PL3 and West of Memphis, so it's convenient you don't remember, assuming you saw those at some point.

You can say I'm ignorant, I can say you're gullible, because again, that angle wasn't immediately followed up on by the WM3. Look at the evidence. JMB was their prime suspect from the jump, not the WM3.

never saw WOM so wouldn't know. and i've only seen parts of the other two PL docs, wasn't a fan of the first one so didn't really bother watching the other two

JMB was a prime suspect because he was a parent of one of the victims. that's standard procedure for a crime like this (which makes it even more puzzling why hobbs was never looked into.) the fact that WMPD went after JMB first has absolutely nothing to do with the influence jerry driver had on the case. once they cleared JMB, they zeroed in on the WM3 because the satanic angle gave the WMPD everything they needed to successfully advance their case against the WM3

 

[Userid]

never saw WOM so wouldn't know. and i've only seen parts of the other two PL docs, wasn't a fan of the first one so didn't really bother watching the other two

JMB was a prime suspect because he was a parent of one of the victims. that's standard procedure for a crime like this (which makes it even more puzzling why hobbs was never looked into.) the fact that WMPD went after JMB first has absolutely nothing to do with the influence jerry driver had on the case. once they cleared JMB, they zeroed in on the WM3 because the satanic angle gave the WMPD everything they needed to successfully advance their case against the WM3

Right -- so neither Driver nor Jones had any immediate impact on the WMPD's investigation. Otherwise they wouldn't have even bothered with JMB. The WMPD was not solely focused or obsessed with satanic panic and this wasn't just some attempt to frame 3 goth kids -- it's a false narrative. They certainly didn't rule out the possibility, but there were many possibilities, including their investigation into Vietnam veterans who lived in the area (based on the tying method soldiers used for captives during that war and the similarities to the victims').

Simply because Sudbury agreed that this crime could have satanic elements doesn't prove conspiracy. It was a general observation by Jones, and many others would have agreed with that initial observation. Does that mean this one observation tainted the entire WMPD's investigation? No, that's silly. There is evidence to the contrary. They talked to multiple people that day, not just DE. They followed every angle they could, which happened to include DE, but it wasn't the only angle they followed.

 

[DHT1339]

Right -- so neither Driver nor Jones had any immediate impact on the WMPD's investigation. Otherwise they wouldn't have even bothered with JMB. The WMPD was not solely focused or obsessed with satanic panic and this wasn't just some attempt to frame 3 goth kids -- it's a false narrative. They certainly didn't rule out the possibility, but there were many possibilities, including their investigation into Vietnam veterans who lived in the area (based on the tying method soldiers used for captives during that war and the similarities to the victims').

Simply because Sudbury agreed that this crime could have satanic elements doesn't prove conspiracy. It was a general observation by Jones, and many others would have agreed with that initial observation. Does that mean this one observation tainted the entire WMPD's investigation? No, that's silly. There is evidence to the contrary. They talked to multiple people that day, not just DE. They followed every angle they could, which happened to include DE, but it wasn't the only angle they followed.

like i said, investigating JMB right off the bat is standard procedure for a crime like this. he was a parent of one of the victims and had a pretty bad reputation around town

sure, they looked into other possible suspects like JMB but when they learned of the WM3, all that came to an end and the satanic angle took over completely. i'm not saying they went after DE because he was a "goth." they went after him because he (and the others) were easy targets based on their pasts and the types of people they were. and in the process of doing so, they forgot about or completely ignored a bunch of other shady characters who were associated in one way or another. it was not just a "general observation" by jones. he and driver had been trying their hardest to find evidence of satanism, cult activity, whatever in WM for years. the killings finally gave those two their chance to prove it and it wouldn't have taken much convincing. you don't think there were people in the WMPD who thought the same way as those two? hell, i'd bet the good majority of people living in WM at the time were concerned in one way or another about "cult activity"

how is it a false narrative when the prosecution literally brought in an occult "expert" during the echols/baldwin trial? that entire trial was full of questions about echols practicing witchcraft, wicca, etc. if it was a "false narrative" and driver/jones had no influence on the case, then why even bother trying to prove guilt by bringing that stuff up? surely, there would've been enough evidence to find DE guilty without all that

 

[Userid]

like i said, investigating JMB right off the bat is standard procedure for a crime like this. he was a parent of one of the victims and had a pretty bad reputation around town

sure, they looked into other possible suspects like JMB but when they learned of the WM3, all that came to an end and the satanic angle took over completely. i'm not saying they went after DE because he was a "goth." they went after him because he (and the others) were easy targets based on their pasts and the types of people they were. and in the process of doing so, they forgot about or completely ignored a bunch of other shady characters who were associated in one way or another. it was not just a "general observation" by jones. he and driver had been trying their hardest to find evidence of satanism, cult activity, whatever in WM for years. the killings finally gave those two their chance to prove it and it wouldn't have taken much convincing. you don't think there were people in the WMPD who thought the same way as those two? hell, i'd bet the good majority of people living in WM at the time were concerned in one way or another about "cult activity"

how is it a false narrative when the prosecution literally brought in an occult "expert" during the echols/baldwin trial? that entire trial was full of questions about echols practicing witchcraft, wicca, etc. if it was a "false narrative" and driver/jones had no influence on the case, then why even bother trying to prove guilt by bringing that stuff up? surely, there would've been enough evidence to find DE guilty without all that

If they followed standard procedure from the jump, then there was no conspiracy. I don't know why you're missing this point. You say they "ignored a bunch of other shady characters" -- no, they didn't. They had many leads, but they led nowhere.

Driver used to drive around looking for satanic activity. That doesn't mean the police took him seriously. No, I really don't think the entire or even the majority of the WMPD took Driver and Sudbury seriously, because there's no evidence they did, as their investigation had many suspects in its umbrella other than the WM3.

The prosecution had nothing to do with the WMPD investigation -- you're making two different arguments now and shifting from your original point. The prosecution brought in Griffis because they only had circumstantial evidence, and they felt like he would help prove their case. That's completely separate from the WMPD making the initial arrest -- the prosecution wasn't involved until after that.

 

[DHT1339]

If they followed standard procedure from the jump, then there was no conspiracy. I don't know why you're missing this point. You say they "ignored a bunch of other shady characters" -- no, they didn't. They had many leads, but they led nowhere.

Driver used to drive around looking for satanic activity. That doesn't mean the police took him seriously. No, I really don't think the entire or even the majority of the WMPD took Driver and Sudbury seriously, because there's no evidence they did, as their investigation had many suspects in its umbrella other than the WM3.

The prosecution had nothing to do with the WMPD investigation -- you're making two different arguments now and shifting from your original point. The prosecution brought in Griffis because they only had circumstantial evidence, and they felt like he would help prove their case. That's completely separate from the WMPD making the initial arrest -- the prosecution wasn't involved until after that.

"if they followed standard procedure from the jump, then there was no conspiracy"

those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive. they had good reason to suspect JMB aside from the fact that he was a parent of one of the victims. once they finished with him, they had their sights set on the WM3 because they were easy targets. of course they ignored other characters in this thing. hobbs is an obvious one. bojangles guy. look up mikeal williams and david beasley. if anyone was involved in satanisn, it's those two

"used to drive around looking for satanic activity." yeah, that's one hell of an understatement. driver believed that DE's parents were involved in some satanic cult and that DE and his GF were planning to have a baby in order to give it up for a sacrifice. that's called infatuation. that kind of stuff was more than enough to easily convince people of guilt in a town like WM in 1993

why did DE and JB become targets in the first place? they had no connection to the victims or to the crime scene. to say that driver/jones had no influence on that is just ignoring reality. and the prosecution believing that accusing DE and JB of being satanists goes back to driver and jones. they didn't just get that idea out of the blue

 

[Userid]

"if they followed standard procedure from the jump, then there was no conspiracy"

those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive. they had good reason to suspect JMB aside from the fact that he was a parent of one of the victims. once they finished with him, they had their sights set on the WM3 because they were easy targets. of course they ignored other characters in this thing. hobbs is an obvious one. bojangles guy. look up mikeal williams and david beasley. if anyone was involved in satanisn, it's those two

"used to drive around looking for satanic activity." yeah, that's one hell of an understatement. driver believed that DE's parents were involved in some satanic cult and that DE and his GF were planning to have a baby in order to give it up for a sacrifice. that's called infatuation. that kind of stuff was more than enough to easily convince people of guilt in a town like WM in 1993

why did DE and JB become targets in the first place? they had no connection to the victims or to the crime scene. to say that driver/jones had no influence on that is just ignoring reality. and the prosecution believing that accusing DE and JB of being satanists goes back to driver and jones. they didn't just get that idea out of the blue

They are mutually exclusive to your specific argument though, especially when it wasn't just JMB who the WMPD investigated. I know King David, he's another one they looked at. They had cops in California follow up on the ice-cream truck driver and his friend (the names elude me now). They took blood and fingerprint samples from multiple suspects like Alvis Bly, Robert Burch, Bobby DeAngelo, LGH, James M. (known pedofile), etc.

All of this disproves your argument; not just JMB.

 

[Userid]

Also, you act like DE and JB were the only teens that police talked to early in their investigation. This is false. They talked to many teens, including but not limited to the ones I mentioned in my prior post.

You have zero proof that Jones and/or Driver had any impact on the investigation; and you're conflating your argument to include the prosecution now, which is misguided.

 

[DHT1339]

They are mutually exclusive to your specific argument though, especially when it wasn't just JMB who the WMPD investigated. I know King David, he's another one they looked at. They had cops in California follow up on the ice-cream truck driver and his friend (the names elude me now). They took blood and fingerprint samples from multiple suspects like Alvis Bly, Robert Burch, Bobby DeAngelo, LGH, James M. (known pedofile), etc.

All of this disproves your argument; not just JMB.

Also, you act like DE and JB were the only teens that police talked to early in their investigation. This is false. They talked to many teens, including but not limited to the ones I mentioned in my prior post.

You have zero proof that Jones and/or Driver had any impact on the investigation; and you're conflating your argument to include the prosecution now, which is misguided.

there's a difference between "talking to" someone and actually investigating them in depth. i never said they didn't investigate anyone aside from the WM3, i said that they ignored shady characters because they had their sights set on the WM3. hobbs, bojangles guy, and beasley/williams are good examples of that. those are 4 people who should have been given a long look but were ignored. if driver/jones had no impact on WMPD, then why were DE and JB the two who immediately came to mind when the topic of satanism came up? driver was more than happy to pass along any crazy conspiracy BS he had conjured about DE to the WMPD and they obviously took that all into consideration.

How do you think police reacted when DE told them he was wiccan? you think those people had any clue what that meant? DE saying that only contributed to everything driver had been feeding them

 

[Userid]

there's a difference between "talking to" someone and actually investigating them in depth. i never said they didn't investigate anyone aside from the WM3, i said that they ignored shady characters because they had their sights set on the WM3. hobbs, bojangles guy, and beasley/williams are good examples of that. those are 4 people who should have been given a long look but were ignored. if driver/jones had no impact on WMPD, then why were DE and JB the two who immediately came to mind when the topic of satanism came up? driver was more than happy to pass along any crazy conspiracy BS he had conjured about DE to the WMPD and they obviously took that all into consideration.

How do you think police reacted when DE told them he was wiccan? you think those people had any clue what that meant? DE saying that only contributed to everything driver had been feeding them

Now you're just splitting hairs. Collecting fingerprint and blood evidence is more than just "talking to someone."

Listen, if you want to buy the media narrative that the WM3 were railroaded and that a juvenile parole officer had clout over an entire police and state department, that's fine, but honestly, you're ignoring a lot of things to believe that.

If memory serves, Beasley and Williams' alibis checked out, so they were eliminated as suspects. Again, I think you're conflating. You're conflating incompetency with conspiracy. TH should have been more thoroughly investigated, and the WMPD screwed up with Bojangles, I'll agree there -- but that doesn't prove your point (that the WMPD had satanic panic tunnel vision).

Ironically, I always hear people complaining that TH wasn't investigated thoroughly enough -- yet they are completely silent on all the other biological parents who were not investigated thoroughly also (two of the victims had steps). Again, this is illustrative of WMPD incompetence.

Lastly, you shouldn't assume that Cally's is exhaustive. It has a plethora of information, but it doesn't possess every single file on the case -- it was simply what the creators of the site could gather when they visited the WMPD, in one day if I'm not mistaken. Point being, this case was thoroughly investigated -- many avenues were explored. To chalk that up as them just going through the motions is just false, period.

 

[DHT1339]

Now you're just splitting hairs. Collecting fingerprint and blood evidence is more than just "talking to someone."

Listen, if you want to buy the media narrative that the WM3 were railroaded and that a juvenile parole officer had clout over an entire police and state department, that's fine, but honestly, you're ignoring a lot of things to believe that.

If memory serves, Beasley and Williams' alibis checked out, so they were eliminated as suspects. Again, I think you're conflating. You're conflating incompetency with conspiracy. TH should have been more thoroughly investigated, and the WMPD screwed up with Bojangles, I'll agree there -- but that doesn't prove your point (that the WMPD had satanic panic tunnel vision).

Ironically, I always hear people complaining that TH wasn't investigated thoroughly enough -- yet they are completely silent on all the other biological parents who were not investigated thoroughly also (two of the victims had steps). Again, this is illustrative of WMPD incompetence.

Lastly, you shouldn't assume that Cally's is exhaustive. It has a plethora of information, but it doesn't possess every single file on the case -- it was simply what the creators of the site could gather when they visited the WMPD, in one day if I'm not mistaken. Point being, this case was thoroughly investigated -- many avenues were explored. To chalk that up as them just going through the motions is just false, period.

you're the one who brought up the WMPD "talking to" people. yeah, they did talk to a lot of people, and they did collect DNA from people as well. that doesn't change the fact that they ignored certain people who should've been looked into more

i wouldn't say their alibis checked out. the pastor of the church they attended said they were there starting at 830 PM the night of the 5/5. which means they weren't accounted for during a timeframe in which the killings could've occurred. not saying they're responsible, but if that was enough reason to eliminate them as suspects, then it's just another example of what i've been talking about. especially considering how their behavior/wardrobe was described and the proximity of their residence to where the boys were last seen

i wouldn't say JMB wasn't investigated enough. did they ever investigate todd moore? i know he was out of town on 5/5 but he should've still been looked into regardless. i'm guessing they didn't. obviously they never even batted an eyelash at hobbs

when did i mention anything about callahan? i know not everything is there. but that doesn't mean we can assume things either

 

[Userid]

you're the one who brought up the WMPD "talking to" people. yeah, they did talk to a lot of people, and they did collect DNA from people as well. that doesn't change the fact that they ignored certain people who should've been looked into more

i wouldn't say their alibis checked out. the pastor of the church they attended said they were there starting at 830 PM the night of the 5/5. which means they weren't accounted for during a timeframe in which the killings could've occurred. not saying they're responsible, but if that was enough reason to eliminate them as suspects, then it's just another example of what i've been talking about. especially considering how their behavior/wardrobe was described and the proximity of their residence to where the boys were last seen

i wouldn't say JMB wasn't investigated enough. did they ever investigate todd moore? i know he was out of town on 5/5 but he should've still been looked into regardless. i'm guessing they didn't. obviously they never even batted an eyelash at hobbs

when did i mention anything about callahan? i know not everything is there. but that doesn't mean we can assume things either

I said from the get-go they investigated many people and took blood/fingerprints from the individuals I listed, among others.

I mentioned Cally's because many people believe it is all encompassing. If you're not in that group, fair enough -- it was just more or less of a warning.

To be fair, I feel like you are assuming way more than I am. I'm going by the evidence and that many avenues were investigated in this case other than satanic panic -- this is undeniable. It was not the only thing on the WMPD's radar, and these avenues were investigated beyond standard protocol.

 

[DHT1339]

I said from the get-go they investigated many people and took blood/fingerprints from the individuals I listed, among others.

I mentioned Cally's because many people believe it is all encompassing. If you're not in that group, fair enough -- it was just more or less of a warning.

To be fair, I feel like you are assuming way more than I am. I'm going by the evidence and that many avenues were investigated in this case other than satanic panic -- this is undeniable. It was not the only thing on the WMPD's radar, and these avenues were investigated beyond standard protocol.

i never said it was the ONLY thing on WMPD's radar

i said that driver's and jones's influence played a big part in how they went after DE and JB to a lesser extent. i can't understand how you can deny that when driver was feeding his conspiracies about DE to the WMPD left and right. you really think they would hear that DE practiced satanism, his parents were a part of a satanic cult, he planned to give his baby up for a sacrifice, etc and that it didn't play a role in how they viewed DE in regards to the murders?

without all that, what do they have on DE? that he dressed differently and had a troubled past?

 

[Userid]

i never said it was the ONLY thing on WMPD's radar

i said that driver's and jones's influence played a big part in how they went after DE and JB to a lesser extent. i can't understand how you can deny that when driver was feeding his conspiracies about DE to the WMPD left and right. you really think they would hear that DE practiced satanism, his parents were a part of a satanic cult, he planned to give his baby up for a sacrifice, etc and that it didn't play a role in how they viewed DE in regards to the murders?

without all that, what do they have on DE? that he dressed differently and had a troubled past?

There is no evidence to support that Driver and Jones influenced "how 'they' went after DE/JB." They investigated everything. They interviewed multiple groups of teenagers. The WMPD wasn't heavily influenced by Driver/Jones -- if they were, they wouldn't have investigated all these other angles, period.

They had multiple reasons to keep DE on their radar, including his stupid actions at the softball game, which even if he was joking, the WMPD would have to still follow up on that. Not to mention the blue candle wax found on one of the victims' clothes that traced back to DT. There was more to the WMPD investigating DE than his tastes in religion and clothes; and it wasn't just Driver and Jones who were saying DE could have been involved. Many of his peers mentioned his name also. It is the responsibility of police to follow up on a lead like that, whether they think it's bull or not.

You're focusing on one thing (Driver) and ignoring everything else.