Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020

[Grouse]

Snipped for focus.

Shelters are coed. If you're going to be uncomfortable because you're female and a guy might want to be in the same shelter, you don't belong in the hiker world that stays in shelters. It's how it is.

Most important, though, it's easy to imagine that staying at shelters is super risky if you're a woman (or, indeed, a man). In fact, there are rarely issues.... There's a kind of bonding that takes place between folks in the backcountry—even folks you've never met before—and there's kind of a code of acceptable behavior. This would be especially true in an extreme environment.

My experience is there's rarely predatory behavior, and when it happens, it's from severe mental illness like schizophrenia. That could happen anywhere.

That being said, I think there are areas in the US where the likelihood is higher (e.g. along some southerly sections of the AT), but that's because those areas are very accessible. The high Pyrenees aren't exactly in that category.

Also consider, in case you're wondering if people don't just consume a whole lot of alcohol, get drunk, and assault fellow hikers..... Consider how heavy alcohol is... You're carrying pack with your necessities, keeping it as trim as possible so you don't have to lug it up a mountain, and then you're carrying a case of Jack Daniels? Ummmm....no.
I suppose there's weed, but gosh only knows what effect that would have at significant altitude.

That's fair enough. I'm sure the risks are low compared to the benefits, and I envy the freedom that this couple have enjoyed. I was really taken by the story on the BBC website of their adventures a week or so ago, and then so shocked and upset to read what happened since.

As I said earlier I err on the risk averse side of this, particularly due to what happened to a young lady that we knew, a long time friend of my wife.

Here's hoping she turns up safe.

 

[Satchie]

The only thing that stands out for me here is the signal issue. Esther warned him signal was poor in the area but having visited and walked the trails he's not found that to be the case except for a very small area.

Its a shame they didn't ask him whether he thought she could still be out in the mountains having walked it. Though I note the search services are now doubtful that she's there. The twist in the tail.

I disagree that they are 'doubtful' she is there. The brutal truth is that, if she is there, she must be dead by now. The mission of any SAR organization is to rescue living people, not find dead bodies in the vast mountain wilderness. Also, the weather has gone bad and the searching will be fruitless because the ground is now covered in snow. But the search would have inevitably wound down by now anyway, SAR teams have to keep fresh to be ready to rescue the next living person in trouble.

"Chances of finding Dingley narrow as bad weather sets in". Gendarmes to scale down search for British hiker Esther Dingley in Pyrenees

This is a hard message to deliver to a desperate loved one: Hey, we're giving up, if she's out here she's dead mate, there's no hope.

There's always the possibility something else happened, and I believe it's important to keep one's mind open to all possibilities. Which means not to close the mind and focus exclusively on just one possibility, such as that the spouse murdered her. The suggestion has no basis whatever, because if a spouse did such a thing, he would be eager to promote the view that she'd had an accident.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Per the Esther & Dan FB page half an hour ago - Dan has been asked not to share further updates on social media as it's now a formal police investigation. He asks people to contact the authorities with any info.

 

[PommyMommy]

But what prompted the initial call to the police? DC randomly decided "I haven't spoken to her in 2 days, so I'm going to call the police"? There were a thousand reasons why they might not have connected (e.g. bad reception), but none of them urgent.
What was the urgency? ED was used to being out there by herself.

I would consider it quite urgent, but I do understand that this (days with no contact) was not out of the ordinary for them.

As I'm sure you're aware, there are what appear to be conflicting reports about when he reported her missing - Nov 24 vs. Nov 25. I assume from your comments above that you are going with Nov 24. I am not so sure. What makes the most sense to me is that he reported her missing when she didn't return as scheduled.

Gendarmes to scale down search for British hiker Esther Dingley in Pyrenees
She was due to return to Gascony in France to meet Coleman on Wednesday but failed to make contact. Alarmed at being unable to reach her, he reported Dingley missing.

MOO

 

[Ironside]

I disagree that they are 'doubtful' she is there. The brutal truth is that, if she is there, she must be dead by now. The mission of any SAR organization is to rescue living people, not find dead bodies in the vast mountain wilderness. Also, the weather has gone bad and the searching will be fruitless because the ground is now covered in snow. But the search would have inevitably wound down by now anyway, SAR teams have to keep fresh to be ready to rescue the next living person in trouble.

"Chances of finding Dingley narrow as bad weather sets in". Gendarmes to scale down search for British hiker Esther Dingley in Pyrenees

This is a hard message to deliver to a desperate loved one: Hey, we're giving up, if she's out here she's dead mate, there's no hope.

There's always the possibility something else happened, and I believe it's important to keep one's mind open to all possibilities. Which means not to close the mind and focus exclusively on just one possibility, such as that the spouse murdered her. The suggestion has no basis whatever, because if a spouse did such a thing, he would be eager to promote the view that she'd had an accident.

I completely agree with you. I wonder if it’s perhaps a translation issue. I think it’s most likely she had a fall and will eventually be found.

 

[RickshawFan]

As I'm sure you're aware, there are what appear to be conflicting reports about when he reported her missing - Nov 24 vs. Nov 25. I assume from your comments above that you are going with Nov 24. I am not so sure. What makes the most sense to me is that he reported her missing when she didn't return as scheduled.

Snipped for focus...

The thing is, in the transcribed interview, he had assumed the cell signal was bad and he was used to her being a day or two off schedule. But he reported to LE within the window when she was supposed to be back in Gascony? I find that very strange: she wasn't late yet, and the lack of communication wasn't unexpected.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I completely agree with you. I wonder if it’s perhaps a translation issue. I think it’s most likely she had a fall and will eventually be found.

Occam's Razor suggests this is the likely scenario, of course. But until she is found, all sorts of other angles will be examined by police and debated by us. Standard!

 

[10ofRods]

So...do we know whether her van was still where she parked it?

 

[Auntie_Seagull]

Snipped for focus...

The thing is, in the transcribed interview, he had assumed the cell signal was bad and he was used to her being a day or two off schedule. But he reported to LE within the window when she was supposed to be back in Gascony? I find that very strange: she wasn't late yet, and the lack of communication wasn't unexpected.

Still, if your loved one is in the mountains, past their date of return and you are unable to contact them, it's wise to notify the SAR. I don't see anyting suspicious in Dan's behavior.

 

[PommyMommy]

Snipped for focus...

The thing is, in the transcribed interview, he had assumed the cell signal was bad and he was used to her being a day or two off schedule. But he reported to LE within the window when she was supposed to be back in Gascony? I find that very strange: she wasn't late yet, and the lack of communication wasn't unexpected.

Again, I'm not convinced that he reported her missing on November 24. I would love to sort that out but unfortunately no longer have access to the many articles, The Guardian in particular, posted here. MOO

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Snipped for focus...

The thing is, in the transcribed interview, he had assumed the cell signal was bad and he was used to her being a day or two off schedule. But he reported to LE within the window when she was supposed to be back in Gascony? I find that very strange: she wasn't late yet, and the lack of communication wasn't unexpected.

I think she contacted Dan pretty regularly, more so that she posted on social media for example. Don't forget with Whatsapp you can see when someone was last online, and whether messages have been delivered and/or read. He probably sent a few and they didn't ever go through. They may also have something like "find my phone" set up between them, so he could see where her phone last picked up any signal.

Regardless of him not expecting her home yet, and also knowing reception could be patchy, there would come a point when it had just been too many hours. And once you get that thought in your head, and you've checked and double checked and waited a bit longer and tried not to worry and waited some more, I can see why there'd be enough reason to raise the red flag and get searchers to have a look.

 

[Satchie]

Like you I saw some of her posts about overcoming fears, and I think she mentioned sleeping out on her own was one of those fears, but that she was trying to overcome it.

Not speaking from experience but men or couples I would imagine would be more common in those sort of places. Given how remote they are it seems a bit risky to me for a lone female, but I'm maybe a bit risk averse on these things as a (female) friend of my wife's was murdered in Asia on a solo backpacking trip about 20 years ago, and a few years ago I met a chap whose wife had been murdered in South America, also on a solo backpacking trip.

Do you mean backpacking as in trekking through high mountain passes, or as in travelling through populated areas staying in hostels and taking buses? Big difference between those two activities, in terms of the kind of risks you face.

Wild, by Cheryl Stayed, published in 2012, became an instant bestseller and the movie a big hit...story of her solo backpacking (ie trekking) trip along the Pacific Crest Trail. Huge inspiration for women.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

The only thing that stands out for me here is the signal issue. Esther warned him signal was poor in the area but having visited and walked the trails he's not found that to be the case except for a very small area.

Its a shame they didn't ask him whether he thought she could still be out in the mountains having walked it. Though I note the search services are now doubtful that she's there. The twist in the tail.

Agree re the signal issue.

She said it was poor and so he may not hear from her. Was she guessing, or did she report that when she was there?

If she said it when she was there, either it wasnt true or the signal changed when he arrived. Most likely, the signal was fine all along.

JMO

 

[Satchie]

Again, I'm not convinced that he reported her missing on November 24. I would love to sort that out but unfortunately no longer have access to the many articles, The Guardian in particular, posted here. MOO

The Guardian is not actually behind a paywall, though they ask you to register. You can scroll down and click 'I'll do it later'. Must say, I love their integrity and do send them money every so often.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

So...do we know whether her van was still where she parked it?

Yes. I believe it was where she left it, at or near Benasque.

Spanish authorities were reportedly alerted of her disappearance on November 25 and informed their French counter parts the next morning, having found her camper-van parked on the Spanish side of the border.

‘Still no sign of missing British hiker Esther Dingley’, says partner

 

[PommyMommy]

The Guardian is not actually behind a paywall, though they ask you to register. You can scroll down and click 'I'll do it later'. Must say, I love their integrity and do send them money every so often.

Duh, that's right! Thanks, Satchie. I'll have a look later this evening. MOO

 

[Amonet]

2nd December 2020

BBC Breakfast

Q: Dan, thank you very much for talking to us this morning. How are you?

DC: (Pause) It’s a difficult time.

Q: It certainly is, um, why do you want to talk to us today? What, how, what, what hope of help are you hoping to get?

DC: Over the past few days the search has been very intense in an area near where Es was walking, she had a clearly defined route, we know exactly where she was the last time she communicated with us and there’s been increasing talk among the search teams that perhaps she isn’t up there after all. Based on a number of factors, with Esther’s level of experience, the fact the weather was fantastic, these are clearly marked trails, and the depth of search that’s taken place, um, it’s increasingly become more plausible she isn’t, hasn’t had an accident on the mountain rather than the fact they simply couldn’t find her. And partly the reason I wanted to talk today was because if there’s even the smallest chance she is, (chokes up) excuse me, is still out, is still out there, then I’d like to get that message out that it’s a possibility and that she may still come home.

Q: What have you been told, um, are the possibilities if she’s not on the mountain?

DC: They haven’t speculated with me. The search teams on both sides of the border, the French and Spanish sides, so Esther, Esther was hiking in Spain for the past few weeks, she was clearly compliant with local regulations and such and she was only planning to dip into France for a particular remote mountain shelter and so, but that’s required search on both sides. Both teams have been very honest with me about their expectations with the search X taking place. Now that the case has become more of a judicial investigation in each country, they’ve advised me to do my best not to think about what that might mean. And simply that something else might, may have happened. And that they’re going to start looking into that.

Q: Dan I know this is a difficult time, we began this interview with you saying that, but what is the implication? What have they told you to be prepared for?

DC: Nothing, nothing specific. Um I’ve spent most of the last 4 days walking, to be honest, I’ve been out on the hills um retracing the routes that the search teams had already walked. They walked them multiple times, I walked them multiple times, I’m familiar with the terrain myself now. All they simply said is ‘we don’t think Esther has had an accident on the mountain’. Um they can never be totally 100% certain, it’s still a mountain landscape, but given the nature of the terrain they’ve just come to the conclusion that further search isn’t going to find her because she probably isn’t there, and I need to start waiting for the other police departments to start looking into this.

Q: Esther messaged you via WhatsApp the social media messaging um app on the 22nd of November and then she was on the top of Pic de Sauvegarde on the France/Spain border. It was quite common for you two to be in regular contact and you have absolute confidence in her ability as a walker and someone who’s done this before on her own, is that correct?

DC: Yeah, Esther and I have walked I don’t know how many thousand miles together, we did a 3-month trek this summer, um in the Alps. She’s done solo treks on her own, several times. She’s very competent, very confident, and she had all the equipment with her to stay safe. She usually kept in touch daily but she had warned me there was poor signal in the area and sometimes when she was on her solo trips it wasn’t unknown that it would be one or two days before I heard from her. It was always worrying but she was doing what she absolutely loved to do, I’ve never seen her as happy as she has been the past few weeks, so I respect that side of her and I loved her for it, I, love her for it. She, when she didn’t get in touch I assumed it was a signal issue. Now I’ve since been in the area and found that the signal is actually quite good in a lot of the places she might have been, so, um again that actually narrows down the, if she had had an accident and that was the reason she couldn’t have been in touch it must have been in a very very small area indeed which has been poured over by people, drones, helicopter, dogs, um, yep, so that’s why I, I’m I’m convinced that she isn’t up there.

Q: Ok, um Dan this is a very very tough time, you’ve made that very clear for you and of course for Esther’s family as well. Thank you for talking to us this morning and wish you well and obviously hope for a positive outcome in finding Esther, Esther Dingley.

DC: Thank you very much.

BBC iPlayer - Breakfast - 02/12/2020

Really interesting interview. Thanks Tortoise for the transcription!

 

[Vaccine]

I disagree that they are 'doubtful' she is there. The brutal truth is that, if she is there, she must be dead by now. The mission of any SAR organization is to rescue living people, not find dead bodies in the vast mountain wilderness. Also, the weather has gone bad and the searching will be fruitless because the ground is now covered in snow. But the search would have inevitably wound down by now anyway, SAR teams have to keep fresh to be ready to rescue the next living person in trouble.

"Chances of finding Dingley narrow as bad weather sets in". Gendarmes to scale down search for British hiker Esther Dingley in Pyrenees

This is a hard message to deliver to a desperate loved one: Hey, we're giving up, if she's out here she's dead mate, there's no hope.

There's always the possibility something else happened, and I believe it's important to keep one's mind open to all possibilities. Which means not to close the mind and focus exclusively on just one possibility, such as that the spouse murdered her. The suggestion has no basis whatever, because if a spouse did such a thing, he would be eager to promote the view that she'd had an accident.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. Here's what Dan said on BBC Radio 4 this morning:
'Over the past few days the search has been very intense in an area near where Es was walking, she had a clearly defined route, we know exactly where she was the last time she communicated with us and there’s been increasing talk among the search teams that perhaps she isn’t up there after all. Based on a number of factors, with Esther’s level of experience, the fact the weather was fantastic, these are clearly marked trails, and the depth of search that’s taken place, um, it’s increasingly become more plausible she isn’t, hasn’t had an accident on the mountain rather than the fact they simply couldn’t find her'.

And the Daily Mail headline;

Police hunting Pyrenees for missing British hiker 'are looking at other options beyond an accident and do NOT believe she is in the mountains', boyfriend reveals

And the BBC News website:
Esther Dingley: Partner says police 'looking at non-accident options'

 

[GordianKnot]

I completely agree with you. I wonder if it’s perhaps a translation issue. I think it’s most likely she had a fall and will eventually be found.

BBM:

Given her heavy SM presence, one certainly can't rule out the possibility of a selfie-related accidental fall. Just doing a basic online search using "person falls off mountain taking selfie" will lead to numerous tragic cases :

British tourist, 21, dies falling off Australian cliff while taking selfie

Officials plea for caution after another sightseer falls to death while taking photos

Man falls to death off cliff while taking pictures, more human remains found during recovery effort

The list goes on and on and on....

My main man William of Occam agrees with you.

A fall is the most likely scenario.

JMO.

 

[Satchie]

I think we will have to agree to disagree. Here's what Dan said on BBC Radio 4 this morning:
'Over the past few days the search has been very intense in an area near where Es was walking, she had a clearly defined route, we know exactly where she was the last time she communicated with us and there’s been increasing talk among the search teams that perhaps she isn’t up there after all. Based on a number of factors, with Esther’s level of experience, the fact the weather was fantastic, these are clearly marked trails, and the depth of search that’s taken place, um, it’s increasingly become more plausible she isn’t, hasn’t had an accident on the mountain rather than the fact they simply couldn’t find her'.

And the Daily Mail headline;

Police hunting Pyrenees for missing British hiker 'are looking at other options beyond an accident and do NOT believe she is in the mountains', boyfriend reveals

And the BBC News website:
Esther Dingley: Partner says police 'looking at non-accident options'

Yes, we certainly can disagree. My objection to the quotes you've cited is that they all come through the partner: he is telling those news outlets his interpretation of what police really think. My argument is that a desperate, grief-stricken spouse is not an impartial witness to what police really think, he's in a desperate, grief stricken state of mind. Plus police don't really share their private opinions, they speak in very neutral terms that can easily be misinterpreted by someone who is desperate and grief stricken.

An equivalent example is how people deal with a diagnosis of a potentially deadly disease, in themselves or a loved one. Many people go into denial, refusing to acknowledge it. Or it may take time for it to sink in.