Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[kkdj]

I just keep thinking the day off of school was a perfect opportunity. It was.
The girls were up late as I recall and they were obviously into social media.
People knew they were going to the park imo.
I can't say for sure sure but I lean towards BG planning this, just waiting for them to show up.
I could be totally wrong but I just have a hard time believing this was just a sudden opportunity.
I admit I go back go back and forth tho.

 

[mom2chloe]

I still think BG had some kind of contact with one of the girls prior. Admittedly I am somewhat biased because I have teenagers but I think I would feel the same regardless. I’ve been a true crime follower from before motherhood and it still rings true with me. IMO

 

[coastal]

re: BG’s total time at scene, obviously most of it was spent pre-incident (possibly > hr or so) trolling, planning etc, I can see a need for a break whether that be food, cigarettes, gas maybe..with that in mind, on the chance that plastic was used for the transaction(s), the “ping” it creates is more valuable and telling than any cell tower phone ping..as I mentioned in my original post, this “transactional dna” identifies time, place, etc ..from there you run with it


The question of did suspect know girls and vice versa is so key to all this..that monday off for snow date not used..do we know if that was for all of school population (students, teachers, school staff, etc) or just students? ..also is it me or us there a touch of familiarity or semi-greeting when the word “guys” is used..the tone used here is similar to what i used to here in high school when we smoked and someone of authority comes thru door..”guys put’em out”

Welcome to Websleuths, bigdata!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I know there are a lot of different opinions out there, but personally, I don’t think the girls knew this guy and I don’t think they planned to meet anyone at the trails.
My reasons are these:
1) One of the few things LE has commented on in this case is that LE has checked all devices and social media accounts of the girls and family members and have found nothing to link to the murders. Family verified this. I have to take that as a rare fact in this case. I’m sure LE has interviewed all their friends including those they might have been in contact with that day about what was being talked about among them all.
2) Libby’s sister and grandmother have stated many times in interviews about how the trip to the trails happened. It was a fairly spur of the moment idea by two bored young teens.
3) Libby and Abby were too young to drive. They were completely dependent on other people to take them places. To meet anybody anywhere they would have to scrounge up a ride, then let that person know etc. I feel LE would have found that communication.
4) The girls never indicate in the video/audio that they know the person on the bridge. If they had, this case would have been solved within days if not hours. They also did not indicate the person on the bridge was someone they perhaps didn’t know but were expecting to meet there.
It’s possible, I guess, that the killer was stalking them. I’m doubtful of that but it’s possible.
Granted, we all know how few real facts we have in this case, so all of this is just my way of seeing things. One day, hopefully soon, we’ll all have the answers. Just my thoughts.

 

[Yemelyan]

I know there are a lot of different opinions out there, but personally, I don’t think the girls knew this guy and I don’t think they planned to meet anyone at the trails.
My reasons are these:
1) One of the few things LE has commented on in this case is that LE has checked all devices and social media accounts of the girls and family members and have found nothing to link to the murders. Family verified this. I have to take that as a rare fact in this case. I’m sure LE has interviewed all their friends including those they might have been in contact with that day about what was being talked about among them all.
2) Libby’s sister and grandmother have stated many times in interviews about how the trip to the trails happened. It was a fairly spur of the moment idea by two bored young teens.
3) Libby and Abby were too young to drive. They were completely dependent on other people to take them places. To meet anybody anywhere they would have to scrounge up a ride, then let that person know etc. I feel LE would have found that communication.
4) The girls never indicate in the video/audio that they know the person on the bridge. If they had, this case would have been solved within days if not hours. They also did not indicate the person on the bridge was someone they perhaps didn’t know but were expecting to meet there.
It’s possible, I guess, that the killer was stalking them. I’m doubtful of that but it’s possible.
Granted, we all know how few real facts we have in this case, so all of this is just my way of seeing things. One day, hopefully soon, we’ll all have the answers. Just my thoughts.

Perfect summation. The main factor that brings it all together for me is point #2. BP has stated in numerous interviews that the girls asked her to take them shopping that day. She said the reason they were helping her with filing that morning was so that they could earn some pocket money for the shopping trip. The idea to go to the bridge instead of shopping must have occurred in literally the last hour or two before they were dropped off at the trails (in fact the first time they broached the topic that afternoon, they were told they couldn't go).

For this reason, if this trip was in any way arranged or communicated to other people, LE have an exact time frame in which to search for these communications. The phone reset that BP says took place a few days before, and that so many find suspicious, would not have affected any communication that occurred the day they went missing. And I don't find it logical that they could have made the plans so far in advance, given that they didn't drive and had to rely on multiple things going perfectly right to get to the trails that particular day.

 

[kkdj]

What if someone had made himself a small camp where the girls were found? A small camp that could view the bridge, although they were well hidden. Perhaps other children had even been led to this small camp before by BG but they never told anyone out of fear. Perhaps this time BG just decided to kill also.
Something to think about imo.

 

[minazoe]

on "Guys", and "down the hill". .. I feel like something is missing..example...

" I have a gun, keep your mouths shut"

it just leaves questions in my mind once again, if they were waiting for this guy , because the whole thing starts with this wrangling of the girls to a different location.
it sounds harmless enough..."like let's get over here instead of on the bridge guys" ....so this is where the kidnapping occurs...and we don't know what else he said ...

I suppose he just pointed the gun...kidnapped the girls and murdered them... they did not know this man...but it still leaves questions in my mind, and did he stalk them,
because of the personal way he seems to approach them... it's absolutely maddening. mOO

 

[MistyWaters]

Perfect summation. The main factor that brings it all together for me is point #2. BP has stated in numerous interviews that the girls asked her to take them shopping that day. She said the reason they were helping her with filing that morning was so that they could earn some pocket money for the shopping trip. The idea to go to the bridge instead of shopping must have occurred in literally the last hour or two before they were dropped off at the trails (in fact the first time they broached the topic that afternoon, they were told they couldn't go).

For this reason, if this trip was in any way arranged or communicated to other people, LE have an exact time frame in which to search for these communications. The phone reset that BP says took place a few days before, and that so many find suspicious, would not have affected any communication that occurred the day they went missing. And I don't find it logical that they could have made the plans so far in advance, given that they didn't drive and had to rely on multiple things going perfectly right to get to the trails that particular day.

Sudden plans, an out of the way trail, low volume of hikers makes it appear it was by sheer misfortune the killer happened upon the girls that afternoon.

Yet the girls presence on the bridge was communicated to others by the SC photos.

Had a reporter not snagged the photos from someone’s FB, I wonder if it would’ve been publicly released? It seems to me SC has become somewhat an elephant in the corner of the room. LE announcing the new direction with focus on a suspect as young as 18 with local connections opens various possibilities quite different than if he were a far older man. We don’t know how many SC recipients there was, if by now they’re all known to LE and did she send photos or communicate by any other app that day. I seem to recall she had well over 100 FB friends and was quite active on SM in general.

Often what’s not talked about during the several PCs, LE and family interviews is very significant in terms of protecting the integrity of the investigation, just my thoughts....

 

[stattlich1]

I've heard he had a gun. No proof of that.
I've heard he had a 'kill kit'. No proof of that either.
I've heard he had all kinds of stuff under his jacket. No proof here either.

Now it could be possible, though the girls did not know him, or recognize him, he may have known them.

Who knows right? It's all speculation.

I do think he was swift. I also think he was familiar with the lay of the land. I think he knew the girls were on that bridge long before they knew he was around. I also think the CS was pre-selected. I see him parking at the cemetery, walking to his observation point that he has already cased out, waiting. I see him simply accessing the bridge while the girls are on it, from either end, doesn't matter to me. I see him corralling the girls to the murder scene. I see him departing via that cemetery.

I also keep the possibility of an accomplice being involved.

It could be a random serial killing, but I have my doubts. Though, it certainly could be.

If there was no video, there would be little if any chance of ever catching him. Nearly the perfect crime. Even WITH the video, he has yet to be found.

The fact that he was so quick, in, out, and gone. Makes me think he's experienced, but not necessarily a serial killer. Either experienced, or a very meticulous planner. To the point of leaving no trace behind that could easily identify him. I think about this often. Quite a professional murderer. Or just luck? For now, I'm on the professional side of the fence. Experienced.

MOO

 

[MichelleBlue]

I know there are a lot of different opinions out there, but personally, I don’t think the girls knew this guy and I don’t think they planned to meet anyone at the trails.
My reasons are these:
1) One of the few things LE has commented on in this case is that LE has checked all devices and social media accounts of the girls and family members and have found nothing to link to the murders. Family verified this. I have to take that as a rare fact in this case. I’m sure LE has interviewed all their friends including those they might have been in contact with that day about what was being talked about among them all.
2) Libby’s sister and grandmother have stated many times in interviews about how the trip to the trails happened. It was a fairly spur of the moment idea by two bored young teens.
3) Libby and Abby were too young to drive. They were completely dependent on other people to take them places. To meet anybody anywhere they would have to scrounge up a ride, then let that person know etc. I feel LE would have found that communication.
4) The girls never indicate in the video/audio that they know the person on the bridge. If they had, this case would have been solved within days if not hours. They also did not indicate the person on the bridge was someone they perhaps didn’t know but were expecting to meet there.
It’s possible, I guess, that the killer was stalking them. I’m doubtful of that but it’s possible.
Granted, we all know how few real facts we have in this case, so all of this is just my way of seeing things. One day, hopefully soon, we’ll all have the answers. Just my thoughts.

Although I see your points, IMO on the Gray interview that Kelsi did just a week or two ago (posted upthread & I did an informal summary) she said a few things of interest that contradict what you are saying so I think anything is still possible:

• When Gray made a statement the LE had investigated all of the social media possibilities & there was nothing, she responded that authorities have not ruled anything out.
• When describing the decision to take the girls to the location she described a span of a couple of hours where they first asked her to go, she said no, and then they asked again an hour later & she said yes. It seemed then that another hour or so passed before they left.

I'm not trying to completely dissect her words, but I do think some of what she said reflects that some contact beforehand with someone has not been ruled out.

 

[minazoe]

there is no way this guy is experienced and gets in and out quick...but is not a Serial Killer.

He is 100 percent a sexually motivated ( they all are) serial killer, and if he sexually assaulted these girls he is also a pedophile.

so he is a pedophile, a rapist, a kidnapper a stalker and serial murderer.

mOO

 

[zencompass]

I've heard he had a gun. No proof of that.
I've heard he had a 'kill kit'. No proof of that either.
I've heard he had all kinds of stuff under his jacket. No proof here either.

Now it could be possible, though the girls did not know him, or recognize him, he may have known them.

Who knows right? It's all speculation.

I do think he was swift. I also think he was familiar with the lay of the land. I think he knew the girls were on that bridge long before they knew he was around. I also think the CS was pre-selected. I see him parking at the cemetery, walking to his observation point that he has already cased out, waiting. I see him simply accessing the bridge while the girls are on it, from either end, doesn't matter to me. I see him corralling the girls to the murder scene. I see him departing via that cemetery.

I also keep the possibility of an accomplice being involved.

It could be a random serial killing, but I have my doubts. Though, it certainly could be.

If there was no video, there would be little if any chance of ever catching him. Nearly the perfect crime. Even WITH the video, he has yet to be found.

The fact that he was so quick, in, out, and gone. Makes me think he's experienced, but not necessarily a serial killer. Either experienced, or a very meticulous planner. To the point of leaving no trace behind that could easily identify him. I think about this often. Quite a professional murderer. Or just luck? For now, I'm on the professional side of the fence. Experienced.

MOO

Dear @stattlich1,

Thank you for your insightful post.

I agree that this is all speculation (gun, kill kit, etc.)

For me, it's the way he appears all "bundled up" that causes me to speculate about what is under his jacket. But then, it is just speculation, given the few facts we do have.

One of my thoughts was that he had a gun he threatened them with for both of them to comply with his directions. But then - we don't know, as you say, if he had a gun - or what he had.

But...somehow he had those girls move from the bridge to the crime scene.

An accomplice cannot be ruled out because we just don't know.

My thought that he was a serial killer is because he may have killed other girls (one girl each time) in other areas (or States) but that he is local and this time he did it in Delphi. I thought this because of the speed in which this all took place. Just another speculation to add to the speculation pot!


Your theory (from your post) is entirely plausible and well thought-out:

"I do think he was swift. I also think he was familiar with the lay of the land. I think he knew the girls were on that bridge long before they knew he was around. I also think the CS was pre-selected. I see him parking at the cemetery, walking to his observation point that he has already cased out, waiting. I see him simply accessing the bridge while the girls are on it, from either end, doesn't matter to me. I see him corralling the girls to the murder scene. I see him departing via that cemetery."

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Although I see your points, IMO on the Gray interview that Kelsi did just a week or two ago (posted upthread & I did an informal summary) she said a few things of interest that contradict what you are saying so I think anything is still possible:

• When Gray made a statement the LE had investigated all of the social media possibilities & there was nothing, she responded that authorities have not ruled anything out.
• When describing the decision to take the girls to the location she described a span of a couple of hours where they first asked her to go, she said no, and then they asked again an hour later & she said yes. It seemed then that another hour or so passed before they left.

I'm not trying to completely dissect her words, but I do think some of what she said reflects that some contact beforehand with someone has not been ruled out.

Thanks for the information and I understand what you’re saying.
I don’t know what Kelsi meant by responding that way to the social media question, but LE has said they found nothing on social media. This is one of the most maddening things about this case...LE says something, then they or someone else says something that can be construed differently. Crazy.
As far as the afternoon leading up to them heading to the bridge, to me, it’s still spur of the moment. Even if you add an hour and give that to the girls to let people know they are headed there, I would think LE would easily have found that communication(s) and looked into it. I’m sure all their friends have been questioned about that day.
However they track this guy down, by social media or other means, I hope they do it soon. Just my thoughts.

 

[Justice101]

following///

 

[stattlich1]

there is no way this guy is experienced and gets in and out quick...but is not a Serial Killer.

He is 100 percent a sexually motivated ( they all are) serial killer, and if he sexually assaulted these girls he is also a pedophile.

so he is a pedophile, a rapist, a kidnapper a stalker and serial murderer.

mOO

I try very hard not to solidify my thoughts on this case, as there is so much unknown. Indeed, this murderer could be exactly as you state.

I also think he could have tons of experience and not be a serial killer. Maybe he's retired Navy Seal, Army Ranger, Marine, trained in urban warfare, the art of killing. Possibly a combat vet.

Maybe the killer here is highly trained in murder investigation. Maybe he knows how to cover his tracks. Maybe he's a defense attorney. I'm not sure, but it's as much a speculative possibility as anything else that is speculative.

He could be an athlete, in excellent physical condition, who studies, or has a degree in criminology.

It's been said the crime scene was contaminated. I think Robert Ives stated as such. Well, I don't know HOW it was contaminated. I once had the thought that he simply poured 2 gallons of bleach over everything before he left. I don't know if that would mess up DNA, but it would surely complicate matters.

DNA has been discussed here over the years, a lot. I hesitate to bring it up. However, if he's sexually motivated in this killing, he either left no trace, left no DNA of any kind, destroyed all DNA and other evidence whether of sexual nature or not, or any DNA retrieved has simply not led to this killer.

Lastly, I am quite familiar with firearms. Some have said they think they see an outline of one under his jacket, I presume on his right side. Maybe it is. I've looked at it extensively and don't think it is, but that's just me. If he does have a firearm in a jacket pocket on his right side, or in a shoulder holster, he could be left handed, as that would be the typical side for a lefty to draw from inside a coat.

I would guess that a man who would pull and display a combat knife could rather easily control two young teen girls.

IMO, only an experienced killer could do this crime, or this guy so far has been real lucky.

 

[minazoe]

if they were smart they would trap him on the internet...This might be the way to find him. Im not going to elaborate.
but they might be able to figure out who he is this way, You cant just hide on the internet...maybe on the dark web..but they will find him somehow some way and he cannot erase his footprint. mOO

 

[mpnola]

on "Guys", and "down the hill". .. I feel like something is missing..example...

" I have a gun, keep your mouths shut"

it just leaves questions in my mind once again, if they were waiting for this guy , because the whole thing starts with this wrangling of the girls to a different location.
it sounds harmless enough..."like let's get over here instead of on the bridge guys" ....so this is where the kidnapping occurs...and we don't know what else he said ...

I suppose he just pointed the gun...kidnapped the girls and murdered them... they did not know this man...but it still leaves questions in my mind, and did he stalk them,
because of the personal way he seems to approach them... it's absolutely maddening. mOO

I was listening with headphones bc it was night and my son was next to me, when they first released the new one with "guys" included. I could hear clear as day (in my own head hahaha) one of the girls scream. "Oh my God, noooooo!!!" I cant be sure that they removed/ attempted to cover that, but it is so clear to me. Wear headphones and listen. I cant unhear it. I hear the scream every time I hear that clip. In my opinion, that is what is missing and why it clearly sounds dubbed out.

 

[Yemelyan]

It's been said the crime scene was contaminated. I think Robert Ives stated as such. Well, I don't know HOW it was contaminated. I once had the thought that he simply poured 2 gallons of bleach over everything before he left. I don't know if that would mess up DNA, but it would surely complicate matters.

Snipped and bolded to address just this part.

If we are talking about DNA, there's contamination and then there's contamination.

All crime scenes are contaminated to a point and there are investigative protocols to deal with it. One of the first procedures investigators do at a crime scene is interview the first responders or people who discovered the body and they make basically a map of each person's movements through the crime scene. They take elimination samples of their DNA and compare it to the "map" they've made. So if, say, a civilian searcher finds a victim's body in the woods and tells police "I approached her from the right side. I touched her neck to see if she had a pulse. But that's all I did." LE will expect to find the searcher's DNA on the neck. That's "normal" contamination. But if later, they find that person's DNA on the victim's leg, then there might be something else there that needs follow-up investigation.

Then there is a more serious type of contamination. In one murder case, a victim was killed in her home but a paramedic put a blanket from the victim's couch over her body to preserve decency. That blanket had hairs and semen from a previous consensual sexual encounter that were transferred to the body. This is the type of contamination that can prevent a case from ever being solved or potentially destroy a case at trial.

Since the victims in the Delphi case were found in an outdoor setting, apparently by civilian searchers, and after exposure to changing conditions overnight, it's almost certain that there was going to be contamination from the start that investigators were going to have to deal with. According to Superintendent Carter, the FBI Rapid Response team headed up the processing of the scene itself which makes one think (or hope) that it was done with a great deal of expertise.

JMO.

 

[stattlich1]

If we are talking about DNA, there's contamination and then there's contamination.

I cut this little part out simply to ask you this question. Do you have knowledge of a case, or cases, where the killer deliberately tried to contaminate a murder scene, in particular, by destroying DNA?

Just a curious question on my part

 

[Yemelyan]

I cut this little part out simply to ask you this question. Do you have knowledge of a case, or cases, where the killer deliberately tried to contaminate a murder scene, in particular, by destroying DNA?

Just a curious question on my part

I do. Several come to mind. One is the Vanessa Marcotte murder case, where the murderer tried to burn just the parts of her body where he suspected his DNA was.