New to this case and new to the forum

[DHT1339]

There is no evidence to support that Driver and Jones influenced "how 'they' went after DE/JB." They investigated everything. They interviewed multiple groups of teenagers. The WMPD wasn't heavily influenced by Driver/Jones -- if they were, they wouldn't have investigated all these other angles, period.

They had multiple reasons to keep DE on their radar, including his stupid actions at the softball game, which even if he was joking, the WMPD would have to still follow up on that. Not to mention the blue candle wax found on one of the victims' clothes that traced back to DT. There was more to the WMPD investigating DE than his tastes in religion and clothes; and it wasn't just Driver and Jones who were saying DE could have been involved. Many of his peers mentioned his name also. It is the responsibility of police to follow up on a lead like that, whether they think it's bull or not.

You're focusing on one thing (Driver) and ignoring everything else.

like i said, WMPD investigating others has absolutely nothing to do with the way driver influenced how they see DE. if you really think that his words had no effect on how they viewed DE, then that's just something we'll have to agree to disagree on

driver was already in WMPD's ear about DE long before the softball game. and yeah, exactly......DE's peers thought he was weird. what do you think WMPD thinks when they hear so many people say that? it all goes back to driver's satanism conspiracy BS. if person A tells me that person B is part of some satanic cult, and then i hear a number of people tell me that person B is weird, has a violent past, etc, what am i going to think of? i'm going to think back to what person A originally told me

 

[Userid]

like i said, WMPD investigating others has absolutely nothing to do with the way driver influenced how they see DE. if you really think that his words had no effect on how they viewed DE, then that's just something we'll have to agree to disagree on

driver was already in WMPD's ear about DE long before the softball game. and yeah, exactly......DE's peers thought he was weird. what do you think WMPD thinks when they hear so many people say that? it all goes back to driver's satanism conspiracy BS. if person A tells me that person B is part of some satanic cult, and then i hear a number of people tell me that person B is weird, has a violent past, etc, what am i going to think of? i'm going to think back to what person A originally told me

You can't prove your point (Driver's influence). It's impossible. You're simply assuming he had this massive impact on the investigation and blindly following the narrative, even though it's obvious other avenues were explored. So be it.

That's how police investigations work. They have to go by what they hear, most times, to actually dismiss the lead. His peers didn't seal the deal, nor did Driver -- JM's confession did that. You can blame Driver all you want but that's what it boils down to.

 

[DHT1339]

You can't prove your point (Driver's influence). It's impossible. You're simply assuming he had this massive impact on the investigation and blindly following the narrative, even though it's obvious other avenues were explored. So be it.

That's how police investigations work. They have to go by what they hear, most times, to actually dismiss the lead. His peers didn't seal the deal, nor did Driver -- JM's confession did that. You can blame Driver all you want but that's what it boils down to.

you keep making it seem as if driver's influence and all the other things WMPD did during the course of the investigation can't be mutually exclusive. if he had no influence, then why did sudbury and jones go to DE's home the next day to interview him? why did sudbury then give driver's "list" of suspects to detectives who went to interview JB the day after they went to DE's home? so why start with those two?

again, driver was in WMPD's ear well before JM "confessed." JM calling out DE by name was just the cherry on top

 

[Userid]

you keep making it seem as if driver's influence and all the other things WMPD did during the course of the investigation can't be mutually exclusive. if he had no influence, then why did sudbury and jones go to DE's home the next day to interview him? why did sudbury then give driver's "list" of suspects to detectives who went to interview JB the day after they went to DE's home? so why start with those two?

again, driver was in WMPD's ear well before JM "confessed." JM calling out DE by name was just the cherry on top

None of that proves your point that they massively influenced the WMPD's investigation. It's ironic because, essentially, you're doing the same thing that supporters like yourself accuse the WMPD of doing to the the WM3, except you're just doing it with Driver. You're relying on conjecture with no real proof.

 

[Userid]

Also, you keep pointing to the fact that Driver mentioned DE and JB early and that the police "started with them." That's just inaccurate, all one has to do is look at the files on Cally's. Before JM's confession, they talked to DE at most 3 times and JB twice, starting the day after the bodies were found -- okay, but obviously they weren't the only ones police talked to that day and that early in the investigation. Such as Richard C. -- who they talked to 6 times, including the same day right after the bodies were found (the 7th). And again, look at how often they investigated JMB (who was also one of the first suspects) compared to the WM3. You can't just ignore these patterns in the overall investigation of the case and just say they're "not mutually inclusive."

 

[DHT1339]

None of that proves your point that they massively influenced the WMPD's investigation. It's ironic because, essentially, you're doing the same thing that supporters like yourself accuse the WMPD of doing to the the WM3, except you're just doing it with Driver. You're relying on conjecture with no real proof.

Also, you keep pointing to the fact that Driver mentioned DE and JB early and that the police "started with them." That's just inaccurate, all one has to do is look at the files on Cally's. Before JM's confession, they talked to DE at most 3 times and JB twice, starting the day after the bodies were found -- okay, but obviously they weren't the only ones police talked to that day and that early in the investigation. Such as Richard C. -- who they talked to 6 times, including the same day right after the bodies were found (the 7th). And again, look at how often they investigated JMB (who was also one of the first suspects) compared to the WM3. You can't just ignore these patterns in the overall investigation of the case and just say they're "not mutually inclusive."

ok, but what reason did they have to speak to DE and JB the day after the bodies were found? did they just pick their names out of a hat? richard cummings was already on their radar because he had gotten in trouble for drilling holes into his wall to spy on his neighbor, plus he lived at mayfair. DE and JB had zero connection whatsoever to the killings until JM "confessed."

funny you bring up callahan in that regard, because the first note on JMB is marked 5/8, a day after they visited echols and the same day they visited JB (and interviewed DE again since he was at JB's house.) so how is it not accurate to say they started with DE and JB?

 

[Userid]

ok, but what reason did they have to speak to DE and JB the day after the bodies were found? did they just pick their names out of a hat? richard cummings was already on their radar because he had gotten in trouble for drilling holes into his wall to spy on his neighbor, plus he lived at mayfair. DE and JB had zero connection whatsoever to the killings until JM "confessed."

funny you bring up callahan in that regard, because the first note on JMB is marked 5/8, a day after they visited echols and the same day they visited JB (and interviewed DE again since he was at JB's house.) so how is it not accurate to say they started with DE and JB?

The same reason they had for Richard C. -- and others -- who they talked to one day after the murder. They were following a lead, any lead they could. That's what an investigation is. You can't just sit there and wait until the perfect lead falls in your lap.

You're wrong about Richard C. They got the tip about the drilled holes while doing door-to-door interviews during the actual investigation at Mayfair. So to say "he was already on their radar" -- no, he wasn't, that's false.

You're also wrong about DE. He did live in Mayfair when he was young/a child. So your logic with regard to Richard C. living in Mayfair should be applied to DE as well, as both had knowledge of the area. That's a connection.

Lastly, I really think you're just splitting hairs at this point with regard to JMB and when the WMPD talked to him -- they were talking to him even before the investigation began, so obviously, he was on their radar. They didn't talk to any of the relatives (including siblings) until the 8th (at the earliest). That doesn't prove they were any more or less focused on them, compared to DE.

I don't think you're viewing this accurately -- the thing with investigations is that, you have multiple officials talking to multiple people at the same time. It's not like Sudbury was the only one working on this investigation and that the police were only talking to DE the first day of the investigation. And again, they didn't even investigate DE and JB as much as they investigated other suspects while the investigation was occurring, that's just the truth.

 

[herb4]

JMB was a great suspect for a number of legit reasons. Over time, I've concluded he had nothing to do with the crime but he looked good for it a long while.

 

[Userid]

JMB was a great suspect for a number of legit reasons. Over time, I've concluded he had nothing to do with the crime but he looked good for it a long while.

Have you heard the recent interview with RC? I heard it when it came out so I might be hazy on it, but he basically said that JMB was full of bull and that JMB hated CB. He still has a lot of animosity towards JMB and I don't really think he dismissed him as a suspect, but again, maybe I'm not remembering it exactly right (only listened to it once and it came out over a year ago).

I still can't completely eliminate JMB and I still think he makes a better suspect than TH. The fact that his wife also died of odd circumstances also keeps him high on the list. Plus he was known to consistently abuse CB, not just "spank" as JMB tried to downplay, but really beat him to the point where neighbors would keep CB in their company just so he wouldn't have to go home because they knew how bad it was.

 

[DHT1339]

The same reason they had for Richard C. -- and others -- who they talked to one day after the murder. They were following a lead, any lead they could. That's what an investigation is. You can't just sit there and wait until the perfect lead falls in your lap.

You're wrong about Richard C. They got the tip about the drilled holes while doing door-to-door interviews during the actual investigation at Mayfair. So to say "he was already on their radar" -- no, he wasn't, that's false.

You're also wrong about DE. He did live in Mayfair when he was young/a child. So your logic with regard to Richard C. living in Mayfair should be applied to DE as well, as both had knowledge of the area. That's a connection.

Lastly, I really think you're just splitting hairs at this point with regard to JMB and when the WMPD talked to him -- they were talking to him even before the investigation began, so obviously, he was on their radar. They didn't talk to any of the relatives (including siblings) until the 8th (at the earliest). That doesn't prove they were any more or less focused on them, compared to DE.

I don't think you're viewing this accurately -- the thing with investigations is that, you have multiple officials talking to multiple people at the same time. It's not like Sudbury was the only one working on this investigation and that the police were only talking to DE the first day of the investigation. And again, they didn't even investigate DE and JB as much as they investigated other suspects while the investigation was occurring, that's just the truth.

DE living at mayfair as a child means he had a connection to the killings? lol, come on. DE knew the area yes, but not because he lived at mayfair as a child. cummings was already living there, and the boys were known to hangout there. so he already had more connection to the killings than DE/JB did

yet, the police went right to DE and JB despite neither having any connection to the crime scene or victims. that's my point. JMB was a parent of a victim, cummings lived in a place where the boys were known to hangout. the police had good reason to investigate them. what good reason did they have to immediately start looking into DE and JB the day after the bodies were found? do you see any notes on callahan from someone in WMPD or someone like driver/jones that says "i know of one person who could've committed this crime, and that's JMB"? DE was singled out immediately

 

[Userid]

DE living at mayfair as a child means he had a connection to the killings? lol, come on. DE knew the area yes, but not because he lived at mayfair as a child. cummings was already living there, and the boys were known to hangout there. so he already had more connection to the killings than DE/JB did

yet, the police went right to DE and JB despite neither having any connection to the crime scene or victims. that's my point. JMB was a parent of a victim, cummings lived in a place where the boys were known to hangout. the police had good reason to investigate them. what good reason did they have to immediately start looking into DE and JB the day after the bodies were found? do you see any notes on callahan from someone in WMPD or someone like driver/jones that says "i know of one person who could've committed this crime, and that's JMB"? DE was singled out immediately

Buddy, you brought up the subject of Mayfair Apartments. You implied police had good reason to look into Richard C. early in the investigation simply because he lived in Mayfair -- again, so did DE at one point. Richard C. had no direct connection to the victims either, many people lived in Mayfair at the time of the murders/investigation and were not talked to as early as he was. This just proves that the WMPD were following any lead they could, just as they did with Sudbury's.

My point is, they had just as much/little to go on when they talked to Richard C., as they did with DE --yet they talked to him just as early, and more, throughout the investigation.

 

[DHT1339]

Buddy, you brought up the subject of Mayfair Apartments. You implied police had good reason to look into Richard C. early in the investigation simply because he lived in Mayfair -- again, so did DE at one point. Richard C. had no direct connection to the victims either, many people lived in Mayfair at the time of the murders/investigation and were not talked to as early as he was. This just proves that the WMPD were following any lead they could, just as they did with Sudbury's.

My point is, they had just as much/little to go on when they talked to Richard C., as they did with DE --yet they talked to him just as early, and more, throughout the investigation.

yes, because the boys hungout at mayfair. did the boys hangout at mayfair when DE lived there as a kid?

cummings had more connection to the victims simply because he lived there at the time the murders occurred. anyone who lived there at the time could've had valuable info because the boys were known to hangout there. 180 residences at mayfair were part of the initial door to door interviews. so it's not accurate to say many people who lived there were not talked to as early as he was.

there was no "lead" on cummings. he lived in a place where the boys often hungout and they felt like they had reason to investigate him deeper because of the hole drilling stuff. again, they had no reason to go straight to DE the day after the bodies were found aside from the tip from jones

 

[Userid]

yes, because the boys hungout at mayfair. did the boys hangout at mayfair when DE lived there as a kid?

cummings had more connection to the victims simply because he lived there at the time the murders occurred. anyone who lived there at the time could've had valuable info because the boys were known to hangout there. 180 residences at mayfair were part of the initial door to door interviews. so it's not accurate to say many people who lived there were not talked to as early as he was.

there was no "lead" on cummings. he lived in a place where the boys often hungout and they felt like they had reason to investigate him deeper because of the hole drilling stuff. again, they had no reason to go straight to DE the day after the bodies were found aside from the tip from jones

Again, multiple people lived at Mayfair when the murders occurred. They all weren't investigated as early as Richard C. So your logic is simply faulty.

I never said the people at Mayfair weren't talked to, good try though. I said, they weren't investigated as early -- and often/thoroughly -- than Richard C.

The lead on Richard C. came from the door-to-doors, it's right there on Cally's! How can you say there was no lead? They got a tip from the neighbor, just like they got a tip from Jones!

 

[DHT1339]

Again, multiple people lived at Mayfair when the murders occurred. They all weren't investigated as early as Richard C. So your logic is simply faulty.

I never said the people at Mayfair weren't talked to, good try though. I said, they weren't investigated as early -- and often/thoroughly -- than Richard C.

The lead on Richard C. came from the door-to-doors, it's right there on Cally's! How can you say there was no lead? They got a tip from the neighbor, just like they got a tip from Jones!

again, they had reason to investigate cummings in depth when they found out about the hole drilling. what reason would they have to investigate the hundred other people at mayfair in depth?

so you're going to compare the tip from the neighbor about something that actually took place to jones telling sudbury "DE is the first person i thought of who would've done this," without any evidence or proof to back it up? haha ok

 

[Userid]

again, they had reason to investigate cummings in depth when they found out about the hole drilling. what reason would they have to investigate the hundred other people at mayfair in depth?

so you're going to compare the tip from the neighbor about something that actually took place to jones telling sudbury "DE is the first person i thought of who would've done this," without any evidence or proof to back it up? haha ok

What does hole drilling have to do with murdering 3 boys in the woods, exactly? Are you trying to say that being a peeping tom is equivalent to murder? It's creepy, illegal, and disgusting -- sure -- but it has as much direct correlation to this specific crime as being in a cult.

Richard C. being a peeping tom was just as much cause as DE being a cultist. They followed both leads, because that's what you do in an investigation.

Leads like DE are followed up on all the time in investigations, whether they come from a juvenile parole officer or a neighbor. I'm starting to wonder if you realize how investigations work. "I hear this guy is a so-and-so, I heard this guy said this," etc. -- and the police have to look into it, that's their job. And they did this with many individuals, not just DE.

You keep ignoring that they interviewed Richard C. more than they interviewed DE (before his arrest) on top of it, which just goes to show even further that the investigation wasn't tainted by Jones/Driver and/or satanic panic.

 

[DHT1339]

What does hole drilling have to do with murdering 3 boys in the woods, exactly? Are you trying to say that being a peeping tom is equivalent to murder? It's creepy, illegal, and disgusting -- sure -- but it has as much direct correlation to this specific crime as being in a cult.

Richard C. being a peeping tom was just as much cause as DE being a cultist. They followed both leads, because that's what you do in an investigation.

Leads like DE are followed up on all the time in investigations, whether they come from a juvenile parole officer or a neighbor. I'm starting to wonder if you realize how investigations work. "I hear this guy is a so-and-so, I heard this guy said this," etc. -- and the police have to look into it, that's their job. And they did this with many individuals, not just DE.

You keep ignoring that they interviewed Richard C. more than they interviewed DE (before his arrest) on top of it, which just goes to show even further that the investigation wasn't tainted by Jones/Driver and/or satanic panic.

haha, now you're just going off topic

again, one thing actually happened....and the other was a baseless conspiracy being peddled by two guys who had an unhealthy obsession with that kind of thing. but hey, at least you admit that sudbury was swayed by the satanic cult BS.

doesn't matter how many times cummings was interviewed. like i said, he lived in a place where the boys often hungout AND WMPD had more reason to suspect him after what the neighbor said. what's so hard to grasp about that? let me repeat myself, DE did not live at mayfair at the time of the killings, nor did he have any connection with the killings or crime scene. cummings lived at mayfair, which was a place where the boys hungout often and were even claimed to have been spotted on 5/5/93. the police had reason to investigate him in depth because he was a shady character who lived in a key setting as it related to the crime

 

[Userid]

haha, now you're just going off topic

again, one thing actually happened....and the other was a baseless conspiracy being peddled by two guys who had an unhealthy obsession with that kind of thing. but hey, at least you admit that sudbury was swayed by the satanic cult BS.

doesn't matter how many times cummings was interviewed. like i said, he lived in a place where the boys often hungout AND WMPD had more reason to suspect him after what the neighbor said. what's so hard to grasp about that? let me repeat myself, DE did not live at mayfair at the time of the killings, nor did he have any connection with the killings or crime scene. cummings lived at mayfair, which was a place where the boys hungout often and were even claimed to have been spotted on 5/5/93. the police had reason to investigate him in depth because he was a shady character who lived in a key setting as it related to the crime

Whatever you need to tell yourself, chief. You just can't answer my questions in my previous post, obviously. If you think that Richard C. was the only "shady" character who lived in the Mayfair apartments that WMPD could have investigated as thoroughly as they did, you know even less about the case than I thought. They would have investigated any peeping tom, whether they lived in Mayfair or not -- because they were obviously investigating any and all leads; not just DE or satanic leads.

I didn't admit anything about Sudbury.

It does matter because it directly contradicts your point. To assume the entire investigation was influenced by the satanic panic angle is utterly naïve, but knock yourself out. All one has to do is go to Cally's and look at the plethora of other suspects that were investigated deeper than DE and/or JB before they got arrested.

Lastly, DE wasn't investigated solely because he was a satanist, but because he had a history of severe mental health issues on top of that, including manic depression and scizophrenia. He also wasn't the only one who was investigated because of similar mental health issues in the area.

 

[DHT1339]

Whatever you need to tell yourself, chief. You just can't answer my questions in my previous post, obviously. If you think that Richard C. was the only "shady" character who lived in the Mayfair apartments that WMPD could have investigated as thoroughly as they did, you know even less about the case than I thought. They would have investigated any peeping tom, whether they lived in Mayfair or not -- because they were obviously investigating any and all leads; not just DE or satanic leads.

I didn't admit anything about Sudbury.

It does matter because it directly contradicts your point. To assume the entire investigation was influenced by the satanic panic angle is utterly naïve, but knock yourself out. All one has to do is go to Cally's and look at the plethora of other suspects that were investigated deeper than DE and/or JB before they got arrested.

Lastly, DE wasn't investigated solely because he was a satanist, but because he had a history of severe mental health issues on top of that, including manic depression and scizophrenia. He also wasn't the only one who was investigated because of similar mental health issues in the area.

ah, we've reached the "i know more than you do" part. right on

alright, then why didn't WMPD investigate hundreds of other mayfair residents as in-depth as they did cummings? again, you miss the point. it doesn't matter how deeply WMPD investigated others, it's the fact that DE (and JB to a lesser extent) became a target right away based off driver/jones conspiracies. if you don't understand the difference between cummings's neighbor tipping the police about his hole drilling and sudbury visiting DE based off a conspiracy, then i really don't know what else to tell you.

there are no "satanic" leads in this, because there was no evidence of satanism in WM. for there to be a "satanic" lead, it would mean that one would have to buy into driver and jones's conspiracies (which WMPD did) if WMPD investigated potential suspects based on mental health histories, then why did they go straight to DE?

 

[Userid]

ah, we've reached the "i know more than you do" part. right on

alright, then why didn't WMPD investigate hundreds of other mayfair residents as in-depth as they did cummings? again, you miss the point. it doesn't matter how deeply WMPD investigated others, it's the fact that DE (and JB to a lesser extent) became a target right away based off driver/jones conspiracies. if you don't understand the difference between cummings's neighbor tipping the police about his hole drilling and sudbury visiting DE based off a conspiracy, then i really don't know what else to tell you.

there are no "satanic" leads in this, because there was no evidence of satanism in WM. for there to be a "satanic" lead, it would mean that one would have to buy into driver and jones's conspiracies (which WMPD did) if WMPD investigated potential suspects based on mental health histories, then why did they go straight to DE?

Haha, you're really all over the place now. This really isn't that complicated: police had a wide umbrella when it came to people of interest. A peeping tom was just as much interest as DE as early on in the investigation. That's the point. You keep implying there was a conspiracy, with zero proof there was a conspiracy. DE was not the only "target right away." And Sudbury's tip wasn't solely "based off conspiracy" -- honest question here, do you even know DE's background? Again, his supposed link to satanism wasn't the only reason why he was investigated -- and he wasn't even investigated as thoroughly as others in the case. Dance around it all you want, but it's fact.

Cult members, peeping toms, pedofiles, bums, vietnam vets, and people with severe mental health issues (all within the area) were investigated early and often, among others. You can either admit this or use pretzel logic to claim otherwise. Simply because his name was mentioned early on doesn't prove anything, particularly that this one comment/lead tainted an entire police investigation.

 

[DHT1339]

Haha, you're really all over the place now. This really isn't that complicated: police had a wide umbrella when it came to people of interest. A peeping tom was just as much interest as DE as early on in the investigation. That's the point. You keep implying there was a conspiracy, with zero proof there was a conspiracy. DE was not the only "target right away." And Sudbury's tip wasn't solely "based off conspiracy" -- honest question here, do you even know DE's background? Again, his supposed link to satanism wasn't the only reason why he was investigated -- and he wasn't even investigated as thoroughly as others in the case. Dance around it all you want, but it's fact.

Cult members, peeping toms, pedofiles, bums, vietnam vets, and people with severe mental health issues (all within the area) were investigated early and often, among others. You can either admit this or use pretzel logic to claim otherwise. Simply because his name was mentioned early on doesn't prove anything, particularly that this one comment/lead tainted an entire police investigation.

what driver and jones were peddling to WMPD was a conspiracy. do you have proof that there was satanic cult activity in WM in 1993? you argue that the police interviewing DE on 5/7/93 was based on his past history and that they interviewed others based on their mental health. alright then, why did they go straight to DE then if that was the case? surely, there had to have been others with troubled pasts who actually had a connection to the crime who would've immediately come to mind. why did sudbury make it a point to write down how he agreed with jones about the crime having "satanic overtones"? you're really going to try and claim sudbury's tip wasn't solely based off conspiracy? DE had zero connection to the victims or the crime scene. the only reason sudbury/jones went to him the day after the bodies were found is because they believed the killings were part of some satanic ritual and that DE had to have been involved because he was part of a cult

they interviewed him twice in two days, this was more than "his name being mentioned early on." come on now