Possible Victim: Valerie Mack, 24, Manorville Jane Doe #6, missing 2000, found Nov 2000 & Gilgo Beach Apr 2011

[Ivory Velvet]

One of the things that stood out to me about Valerie is a particularly rough mugshot. It made me think of Jessica Taylor right off the bat, in that these 2 victims don't appear to be of the "escort" variety (if you catch my meaning). There is just no way, imo , that LISK would engage with providers of this type. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Bittrolff would've.

 

[Sallyla]

One of the things that stood out to me about Valerie is a particularly rough mugshot. It made me think of Jessica Taylor right off the bat, in that these 2 victims don't appear to be of the "escort" variety (if you catch my meaning). There is just no way, imo , that LISK would engage with providers of this type. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Remember when they died. Turn of the millennium. The internet was not what it is now then and it certainly wasn’t the go to place for hookers then. Higher class hookers would have been more likely to work via agencies then so we’re more likely to be missed and missed quickly and have records of their location kept.

May have been availability rather than choice.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Remember when they died. Turn of the millennium. The internet was not what it is now then and it certainly wasn’t the go to place for hookers then. Higher class hookers would have been more likely to work via agencies then so we’re more likely to be missed and missed quickly and have records of their location kept.

May have been availability rather than choice.

Fair point about the internet ( although, internet prostitution existed as far back as 1995) , but that doesn't change the point of my post. There have always been "tiers" of prostitution , and girls who worked the streets have always been in the bottom tier. Prior to 2000 , you didn't need to use an escort service in order to acquire a higher class of girl. Many call girls worked independently. And there were always strip clubs and private gentleman clubs where clients could visually access providers prior to hiring their services. These higher "tiers" of prostitution have always been available to clients , provided they had the contacts and the money.

 

[FullMinder]

The new belt images have been posted on Articles Recovered at Scene

I definitely think the correct orientation is HM now.

Both image file names have the word "Barnes" in it. Maybe it was found on MBB.
"beltpicBarnesblack2noglove"
"beltpicBarnesbrown1"

Speaking of image filenames on the website, does anyone know what "EAD" would stand for in Valerie's Gilgo crime scene photos? https://www.gilgonews.com/images/Manorville/EAD_0003.jpg

 

[burntsnoop]

Speaking of image filenames on the website, does anyone know what "EAD" would stand for in Valerie's Gilgo crime scene photos? https://www.gilgonews.com/images/Manorville/EAD_0003.jpg

Found this acronyms list from National Crime Intelligence Resource Center. Not sure if applies but worth a shot-

 

[eagleyeseymour]

Remember when they died. Turn of the millennium. The internet was not what it is now then and it certainly wasn’t the go to place for hookers then. Higher class hookers would have been more likely to work via agencies then so we’re more likely to be missed and missed quickly and have records of their location kept.

May have been availability rather than choice.

Excellent point Sallyla. We must look at this in the context of the time period. While Shannan Gilbert and the GB4 were all referred to as "escorts", this is mainly due to the culture shift taking place which enabled any sex worker with a camera and internet access to market themselves online.

What would the GB4 would have been referred to had these women been born 10 years earlier? Likely not escorts. Many of the "escorts" on those websites (Backpage, Craigslist) are self-proclaimed. After all, there is no certification or accreditation process. It's essentially a term to communicate that they are available as a companion and that sex is available.

While the term "escort" may have once been associated with a woman who was not a street walker. The internet provided opportunity for many to operate as escorts, when otherwise they would've likely been street walking or stripping due to their life circumstances. Had Valerie Mack and Jessica Taylor lived, I imagine they'd use those websites to their advantage like any other woman in the sex industry.

 

[eagleyeseymour]

One of the things that stood out to me about Valerie is a particularly rough mugshot. It made me think of Jessica Taylor right off the bat, in that these 2 victims don't appear to be of the "escort" variety (if you catch my meaning). There is just no way, imo , that LISK would engage with providers of this type. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

LISK would engage with any provider he felt he could manipulate , overpower and kill while getting away with it. No one is dolled up for their mugshots.

I'm sure if you look at the GB4 there were plenty instances where they were disheveled and not of the "escort" variety. Look at Amber, Schaller spoke of when they first met, he described her as being , and I'm paraphrasing, an absolute mess. Raggedy clothing, severely underweight, missing teeth and all, and what we do know is LISK called her and killed her.

 

[Sallyla]

Fair point about the internet ( although, internet prostitution existed as far back as 1995) , but that doesn't change the point of my post. There have always been "tiers" of prostitution , and girls who worked the streets have always been in the bottom tier. Prior to 2000 , you didn't need to use an escort service in order to acquire a higher class of girl. Many call girls worked independently. And there were always strip clubs and private gentleman clubs where clients could visually access providers prior to hiring their services. These higher "tiers" of prostitution have always been available to clients , provided they had the contacts and the money.

It was very much niche until the mid-00s. There may have been hookers online but there weren’t that many people aware of it and it wasn’t as safe or easy as it became.

Even if working independently I don’t think high class hookers were his thing. Especially as an inexperienced killer he would have been extra careful. Higher class hookers tend to have fewer issues like drugs, mental illness, aggressive pimps. Often they’re people like students who live outwardly normal lives so are more likely to be missed and have family and friends around who’d notice they’d gone and ask questions and they’re also more likely to be the people police will sit up and listen to unlike say Alex or Mari who were solidly working class and rough around the edges.

I’d say Melissa, Maureen and Meghan occupied a space between high class call girls and street corner hookers like Jessica & Valerie. Although Melissa did work the streets for a while.

Amber on the other hand was possibly even lower down the food chain than streetwalkers given she was often robbing and fleecing Johns. She had missing teeth and things. Not a criticism of her, she had a sad life. Perhaps when things started heating up in the search for Shannan he felt rushed to get one more kill in so downgraded again?

Looking at the victims, I think the most striking thing is that there weren’t any truly high class hookers. There was a mix of low to mid range.

 

[Sallyla]

X post Eagleyed.

 

[coldcaser]

It was very much niche until the mid-00s. There may have been hookers online but there weren’t that many people aware of it and it wasn’t as safe or easy as it became.

Even if working independently I don’t think high class hookers were his thing. Especially as an inexperienced killer he would have been extra careful. Higher class hookers tend to have fewer issues like drugs, mental illness, aggressive pimps. Often they’re people like students who live outwardly normal lives so are more likely to be missed and have family and friends around who’d notice they’d gone and ask questions and they’re also more likely to be the people police will sit up and listen to unlike say Alex or Mari who were solidly working class and rough around the edges.

I’d say Melissa, Maureen and Meghan occupied a space between high class call girls and street corner hookers like Jessica & Valerie. Although Melissa did work the streets for a while.

Amber on the other hand was possibly even lower down the food chain than streetwalkers given she was often robbing and fleecing Johns. She had missing teeth and things. Not a criticism of her, she had a sad life. Perhaps when things started heating up in the search for Shannan he felt rushed to get one more kill in so downgraded again?

Looking at the victims, I think the most striking thing is that there weren’t any truly high class hookers. There was a mix of low to mid range.

Serial killers who target sex workers know what kinds of girls they can kill and most likely get away with— lot lizards, street walkers, and the girls who advertise online who would be street walkers if it weren’t for the fact it became so easy to go online and make an ad.

There’s a website called usasexguide where johns review girls they’ve been with. They have a section for every state and then it breaks down into escorts, street walkers, strip clubs, etc. I’ve gone through literally thousands of pages on there looking for clues, anyone suspicious, reviews of victims, photos of them, etc. I was actually able to find one street walker review from around the time Jessica went missing. This girl worked in NYC. She also had a tattoo that said Remy. By going through these posts I’ve gotten a good feel for how these men’s minds operate. Often you’ll see them calling browsing street walkers “hunting”. Many talk about how they love to hunt and “capture” their “prey”. Some of them particularly go after the most desperate girls because they know they’re hard pressed for money and more likely to do whatever you want them to. I’ve seen stories where men openly describe raping women, beating them, attacking them with tasers. You won’t find these kinds of guys in the other subsections. At least they won’t talk like that openly online. Higher class escorts don’t attract the dregs of society like street walkers do. And like you said, they’re more likely to have people who’d care about them and miss them.

Out of the GB4, Amber had the most “symptoms” of a street walker, between robbing and her severe substance abuse issues. Her robbing johns doesn’t put her on a lower rung than street walkers though. Street walkers are known for being wallet magicians. She also had the benefit of having a home to bring men back to which brings a level of SOME safety, while street prostitutes are going into strangers cars. Are you familiar with the saying “once you get to the second location you’re dead”? Street walkers are, by default, always going to that second location. Even more vulnerable than them though are truck stop prostitutes but I’ve rambled enough so I’ll end that thought there.

 

[Sallyla]

Coldcaser, I’m in the UK. I think it may be a cultural difference. Over here not having sex but running with the money or robbing the John without sex is called ‘clipping’. With the sort of people who are into that, they regard them as the worst because you get your stuff stolen and no sex. At least with streetwalkers they get sex even if their wallet is stolen.

I agree with your points, I saw a documentary which said some men like broken down sex workers because they’re easier to degrade.

 

[LR1]

According to this report, which is news to me, they've determined VM had "only briefly come to Long Island for sex work" and that "It wasn't a prolonged trip to Long Island, it was certainly specifically for that visit," says Hart.

Gilgo Unsolved Part 3: What comes next?

 

[Curious2017]

According to this report, which is news to me, they've determined VM had "only briefly come to Long Island for sex work" and that "It wasn't a prolonged trip to Long Island, it was certainly specifically for that visit," says Hart.

Gilgo Unsolved Part 3: What comes next?

This makes me wonder if VM went to LI bc she was promised a large amount of cash, such as the scenario with a few of the other women.

 

[eagleyeseymour]

According to this report, which is news to me, they've determined VM had "only briefly come to Long Island for sex work" and that "It wasn't a prolonged trip to Long Island, it was certainly specifically for that visit," says Hart.

Gilgo Unsolved Part 3: What comes next?

Most significant piece other than Hart's comments regarding Philly. She shook her head yes but caught herself and said, "nothing i'm going to discuss at this time" when asked if a Philly link exists independent of Valerie Mack

 

[DetectiveB]

After watching Hart speak about how she "awful" she feels about family members loosing their loved ones...
I then thought about how the amount or the lack of "hard work" or "evidence" she's given or the dept.

I mean, really...what was so important to hold back, for an entire year, a photo of the front and back of a belt?
It's been 10 Years and one of the "Highest Paid" P.D. in the country-this is ALL they've shared with the public- AFTER saying the public is an important key in helping solve this case. And NOW you're not wanting to share the 911 calls...
I have so much I want to say but I get so brain scrambled from anger.

I am sure that SCPD is on this very site getting all their "hard work"...Hi Gerri! Hi James! (lol, sorry couldn't resist)

It's like living in the twightlight zone, it's so obviously ridiculous. All of it. We've got corruption, cover ups, sex, drugs...you name it ...and the only thing they've given the public is a photo of a belt (which ironically the photo resembles a grave stone w HM initials on it)

Just tell us what is the size!? Is it a Male's Belt!? Is it a Choker?! etc...
Hart-less is more like it. I am not a negative person by any means but I can't help but feel for these families. It's disgusting that they even feel like they're giving us anything of importance, and doing it with a straight face! Do they really think we're that naive? Such a waste of time.

In the meanwhile, perhaps we have to go another route? Remember Einstein's famous quote, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I think perhaps digging into the JOHN DOE(s) may be an important way to go. SCPD will not do it, we know that.

Take for example: "The Man at Wolf Hill Road." I've spoken about him before and brought up that perhaps he was VM's pimp. I mean if you think about it, both VM and JT had to have pimps, no? And both around the time of their deaths, there were male bodies found in different locations. If KW was known to be JT's pimp, why wasn't he with her? Is it possible to have more than one? IDK? But KW was photographed w JT and obviously other girls in the sex trade business. Cherries fits the description to the right of him. He needs to be asked exactly who are ALL the girls in that PHOTO? There's been mentioning of other girl's having the "Remy" tattoo as well. There is also a photo of a black suitcase in his myspace photo history-looks very similar to that of which Cherries was found.

It's all a sheet show. So much mess that it's mind boggling, imo. But there are so many amazing people here in this group who care and with continued input, help, research, etc this case will be solved.

One last rant...if you look at the case of "The Man at Wolf Hill Road" and this particular post...it mentions AC and the body not having any shoes...BUT when you look at other articles or publication, those facts have been altered or removed. Why? It just sounds so familiar to that of the AC4...but I could be wrong. But nonetheless...facts should not be tampered with. Period. But as we all know...this is a Sheet Show with a plethora of sad clowns.

"Investigators describe the man as white, possibly Hispanic; between 35 and 45 years old; 140-150 lbs.; between 5’8” and 6’ tall; short, dark hair; and wearing a khaki-colored, short-sleeved V-neck knit shirt with black trim; a T-shirt with an Atlantic City emblem on it; size 30-32 Levi blue jeans; and a blue bathing suit. He was not wearing shoes or socks and had been dead for about two months, according to autopsy reports."

NYM000309

 

[DetectiveB]

It was very much niche until the mid-00s. There may have been hookers online but there weren’t that many people aware of it and it wasn’t as safe or easy as it became.

Even if working independently I don’t think high class hookers were his thing. Especially as an inexperienced killer he would have been extra careful. Higher class hookers tend to have fewer issues like drugs, mental illness, aggressive pimps. Often they’re people like students who live outwardly normal lives so are more likely to be missed and have family and friends around who’d notice they’d gone and ask questions and they’re also more likely to be the people police will sit up and listen to unlike say Alex or Mari who were solidly working class and rough around the edges.

I’d say Melissa, Maureen and Meghan occupied a space between high class call girls and street corner hookers like Jessica & Valerie. Although Melissa did work the streets for a while.

Amber on the other hand was possibly even lower down the food chain than streetwalkers given she was often robbing and fleecing Johns. She had missing teeth and things. Not a criticism of her, she had a sad life. Perhaps when things started heating up in the search for Shannan he felt rushed to get one more kill in so downgraded again?

Looking at the victims, I think the most striking thing is that there weren’t any truly high class hookers. There was a mix of low to mid range.

Nice post...the one thing we have to remember tho, I believe that Shannan's story wasn't made public until after the first body was found...so "he" could not have felt the heat just yet.

 

[Sallyla]

Nice post...the one thing we have to remember tho, I believe that Shannan's story wasn't made public until after the first body was found...so "he" could not have felt the heat just yet.

If he was involved with Shannan’s death, he wouldn’t need it making public would he? He’d already know. And if he was in Oak Beach, around the area, he’d know Pak & Alex had been out asking questions, Mari and her other daughters were visiting the area, agitating, pushing, contacting the police and not taking no for an answer from them, finding evidence like the earring, taking about Hacketts call.

If they had connections in SCPD that times a million.

Public announcements only come as news to the innocent.

 

[Sallyla]

I think it’s a strong indication that he was involved in whatever happened to Shannan. As you say, her disappearance wasn’t publicised until later. So it’s unlikely to be an unrelated killer who had seen reports about Shannan as that can’t be what triggered the frenetic changes. Unless it’s an incredibly unlikely coincidence changes must have been caused by someone in a position to have the inside track on Shannan.

 

[coldcaser]

This makes me wonder if VM went to LI bc she was promised a large amount of cash, such as the scenario with a few of the other women.

I was thinking the same thing. It sounds like she was lured, like the GB4 were. She specifically traveled there for that date. It makes me wonder if it is one serial killer whose MO developed.

 

[Curious2017]

I was thinking the same thing. It sounds like she was lured, like the GB4 were. She specifically traveled there for that date. It makes me wonder if it is one serial killer whose MO developed.

I wonder if she had a driver? or maybe took public trans to get to the meeting place? So do you think "he" was dismembering, like JT and VM, then changed to the "neater" method of strangulation?
I just cant get Bittrolf out of my mind when thinking about VM and JT. They were possibly killed only 7-8 years after his first murders, so its not out of the realm of possibilities. He could have evolved into dismembering vics and gotten careless in regard to the location they were dumped- which was essentially his own backyard, imo.