Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Inverloch]

It's astonishing to me that this case hasn't been solved, given the video of the perpetrator. It's so clear - surely people who know the man well would recognise him instantly?

 

[Yemelyan]

I used to think the same way until I actually met LE. Being in LE is a job for them. Criminals keep committing crimes and there are more criminals and more crimes than just the Delphi murders.

Life goes on for the police and for the criminals they are tasked with apprehending. Maybe there is some type of other reasons police have that led them to their conclusions, but I really do think the police are just guessing with the second sketch because they are looking for an unknown. Maybe they get lucky with a tip that they can connect the forensic evidence they have to? I think they figured if they just cover their bases by saying the killer lives or lived, works or worked, and visits or visited that any type of association past or present will be seen as having an association to Delphi. Because in order to know any place usually it is because of one of those three reasons.

Just because police have not told us why they put out the second sketch does not mean they are not guessing either.

With all due respect, @somequestions, I think you have a bias that strongly skews how you view this case, and the bias is that you have actually tipped a person to authorities. If I understand correctly, you based your tip on the video, and the person you tipped doesn't closely match the official sketch. So either you are guessing or police are guessing, since in your view only one can be correct.

You've seen a snippet of a video of a man walking, heard four words he said, and read a bunch of articles where police said "we aren't going to tell you everything we know." The police, on the other hand, have all the evidence from the crime scene, the victimology of the girls, official interviews, and all of the video and audio. I'm trying to ask this as gently as possible, but who is more likely to be guessing, you or the investigators?

I'm not trying to say that police don't ever make mistakes but if they have in this case, I don't think it was because they were making guesses.

Four years is a long time to wait for justice but it's by no means unheard of or always indicative that the investigation is derailed or police are incompetent.

If you want to look up the murder of five year old Evelyn Miller, you can see an example of this. She was sexually abused and killed by her mother's boyfriend and though LE knew fairly early on that his behavior was suspicious and that he had tons of child sexual abuse material on his computer (including videos depicting the very specific, exact kind of abuse perpetrated on Evelyn when she died), they weren't able to fully develop their case against him for the murder for over six years. And he lived in her home and incriminated himself in multiple ways! They didn't even need to figure out his identity, it just took that long to get the evidence that would convict him of the crime.

As in the Delphi case, police held back all information about what had been done to Evelyn and how she died, and were highly criticized for this. Ultimately they were able to show, however, that the suspect incriminated himself in interviews through knowledge of the crime that could not have been known by anyone other than the perpetrator. The criminal complaint is available online, it's a master example of why and how police use holdback information in cases like Delphi.

You and I may wish there was more visible movement that the Delphi case is progressing, but just because we don't see it does not mean it isn't happening, and certainly doesn't mean police are using mere guesswork to inform their investigation. Have there been cases police weren't diligent about solving, for whatever reason? Sure. Is Delphi one of those? I doubt it.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I used to think the same way until I actually met LE. Being in LE is a job for them. Criminals keep committing crimes and there are more criminals and more crimes than just the Delphi murders.

Life goes on for the police and for the criminals they are tasked with apprehending. Maybe there is some type of other reasons police have that led them to their conclusions, but I really do think the police are just guessing with the second sketch because they are looking for an unknown. Maybe they get lucky with a tip that they can connect the forensic evidence they have to? I think they figured if they just cover their bases by saying the killer lives or lived, works or worked, and visits or visited that any type of association past or present will be seen as having an association to Delphi. Because in order to know any place usually it is because of one of those three reasons.

Just because police have not told us why they put out the second sketch does not mean they are not guessing either.

A defense attorney’s dream, I think, would be knowing that an investigation had been based on a lot of guessing. Educated guesses perhaps in order to explore a certain aspect, but I can’t imagine LE, in this or any case, just guessing and making stuff up to present to the public as true to the case, just to see if maybe something might happen. First, it’s a waste of time, second, if found out, all credibility in LE is lost. And again, a field day for the defense at trial.

 

[sandy_80]

waiting for someone connected to the victim to incriminate himself is one thing...waiting for an unknown stranger is another .
there is only too many questionable things about this investigation....
ONE that I can easily question is how they decided to name ( second sketch ) as def BG ???
there is no way they would know that...all they have is what one witness reported suspecting ( like the sketch artist himself said ) .....in this case the way it should have been displayed to the public is ( there a POI who we want to speak to ) .is the logical thing to say

 

[Justice101]

With all due respect, @somequestions, I think you have a bias that strongly skews how you view this case, and the bias is that you have actually tipped a person to authorities. If I understand correctly, you based your tip on the video, and the person you tipped doesn't closely match the official sketch. So either you are guessing or police are guessing, since in your view only one can be correct.

You've seen a snippet of a video of a man walking, heard four words he said, and read a bunch of articles where police said "we aren't going to tell you everything we know." The police, on the other hand, have all the evidence from the crime scene, the victimology of the girls, official interviews, and all of the video and audio. I'm trying to ask this as gently as possible, but who is more likely to be guessing, you or the investigators?

I'm not trying to say that police don't ever make mistakes but if they have in this case, I don't think it was because they were making guesses.

Four years is a long time to wait for justice but it's by no means unheard of or always indicative that the investigation is derailed or police are incompetent.

If you want to look up the murder of five year old Evelyn Miller, you can see an example of this. She was sexually abused and killed by her mother's boyfriend and though LE knew fairly early on that his behavior was suspicious and that he had tons of child sexual abuse material on his computer (including videos depicting the very specific, exact kind of abuse perpetrated on Evelyn when she died), they weren't able to fully develop their case against him for the murder for over six years. And he lived in her home and incriminated himself in multiple ways! They didn't even need to figure out his identity, it just took that long to get the evidence that would convict him of the crime.

As in the Delphi case, police held back all information about what had been done to Evelyn and how she died, and were highly criticized for this. Ultimately they were able to show, however, that the suspect incriminated himself in interviews through knowledge of the crime that could not have been known by anyone other than the perpetrator. The criminal complaint is available online, it's a master example of why and how police use holdback information in cases like Delphi.

You and I may wish there was more visible movement that the Delphi case is progressing, but just because we don't see it does not mean it isn't happening, and certainly doesn't mean police are using mere guesswork to inform their investigation. Have there been cases police weren't diligent about solving, for whatever reason? Sure. Is Delphi one of those? I doubt it.

This^^^^

 

[Justice101]

<modsnip: Removed reference to removed post>

It looks like there are several places on the left of the trail where a would-be stalker could hide behind the shank of a hill or down the bank slightly.

I think the girls probably passed him coming from the bridge. When they saw him again, it was obvious he had doubled back which is extremely odd.. that probably is what hit the girl's radar for Libby to turn on her video.

Those poor girls knew they were all alone at the end of a trail.

 

[Yemelyan]

waiting for someone connected to the victim to incriminate himself is one thing...waiting for an unknown stranger is another .
there is only too many questionable things about this investigation....
ONE that I can easily question is how they decided to name ( second sketch ) as def BG ???
there is no way they would know that...all they have is what one witness reported suspecting ( like the sketch artist himself said ) .....in this case the way it should have been displayed to the public is ( there a POI who we want to speak to ) .is the logical thing to say

As to the bolded part...JMO but I don't think LE are just sitting around waiting for an unidentified stranger to suddenly incriminate himself (by confessing to a friend, relative, or communicating with LE or something of that nature).

Instead, I think they are hoping to use evidence to ascertain his identity and then obtain incriminating statements during an interrogation. I just wanted to clarify this.

If you familiarize yourself with some of the techniques that LE use in questioning POIs, a common one is to offer up a scenario in which the individual is involved but had a "justification" for their behavior. Sometimes the POI will bite on this "excuse" and reveal that they know more about the crime than they should know. Or the interrogator will offer up a lesser of two evils scenario - "now did you plan this or did it just happen spur of the moment?" Even if the person being questioned continues to make denials, this technique is very effective at getting suspects to give up information that could only be known by the person who committed the crime. Unfortunately it's also associated with a high rate of false confessions so the holdback information is critical.

My point about the Evelyn Miller example is that police realized fairly early on that they weren't dealing with a stranger abduction and murder situation. In a sense they were able to skip the whole step of figuring out the identity of the major POIs, which Delphi detectives are evidently still wrestling with. And yet it STILL took years to develop a prosecutable case against the offender. Therefore, a wait of years in the Delphi case, to me, seems still reasonable - certainly not what anyone would wish for justice, but also not yet in the realm where you ask "are there serious mistakes or a cover-up going on."

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I am still thinking about Abby and Libby and this case daily even though I haven’t been able to keep up with the threads here lately.

Thank you to those of you who post day after day, doing what you can to keep this case active so that hopefully the right pair of eyes recognizes the murderer responsible for this and comes forward to say so.

Recently, I spent time working on a 1000 piece puzzle and oddly enough, it may have put some of the many challenges that LE faces about this case into perspective for me. They have used the puzzle analogy before and it makes so much sense to me more than ever now.

I ended up getting stymied in certain sections of the puzzle I was working on because I was very adamant that the pieces had to fit where they appeared to go based on the size, colours or the patterns they seemed to belong with. I ended up being wrong several times because of my pre-conceived notion of where things had to fit based on my first impressions.

I had to keep going back to the puzzle with fresh eyes in order to chip away at it and then finally put it all together. I had the picture of the puzzle in front of me the entire time, I practically had it memorized, and it still took ‘process of elimination’ over and over again until I finally got all of the pieces to fit in the right places.

LE now has over 50,000 tips (likely an Indiana state record -JMO), hundreds of interviews and likely hundreds (if not thousands) of pieces of evidence and they didn’t know how many of them (if any) actually belonged to the investigation or where they all fit in initially, based on their first impressions.

They have systematically chipped away at analyzing all of it for the past almost four years, first by establishing the crime scene(s), identifying what are and are not actually valid pieces of evidence in a massive publicly visited outdoor crime scene, analyzing DNA, interviewing family, friends, co-workers, and ‘witnesses’ and eliminating suspects…..not to mention the hundreds upon hundreds of hours of video they must have also viewed from many places that day, week or even month, in minute detail, frame-by-frame.

That is a monumental task, to say the least.

Sure they had loads of resources, but I can guarantee that that every single piece of evidence had to be examined dozens of times by dozens of people in order to establish that it was, in fact, something that was significant to be regarded as evidence in reference to this double homicide.

Libby’s video and audio alone must have also consumed thousands of hours being examined by the top professionals as well, not to mention that LE has acknowledged that they have more that they have not released and we have no idea exactly how much there is or who or what else is on it from that day.

I imagine that Libby also took other pictures that we have not seen from that day, and they must have been analyzed under a very fine microscope hundreds of times by dozens of people as well.

All of this, amongst weeding out the ‘red herrings’, and attempts to follow up on the ‘I saw this guy in a blue jacket …’ type tips that they must have received over the years, not to mention the time it takes to document such follow-up.

I am also keeping in mind that we only know a very small part of what happened based on what has been released, so there is much, much more that we don’t even have an inkling about that they surely are spending a lot of investigation time on very, very quietly.

3 years and 10 months have gone by since Abby and Libby were found, and I know that many people are losing patience with the investigation because it is believed that LE should release more information to get that once ‘last piece of the puzzle’….that one, breaking the case wide open, tip.

It must crush LE every time they think they may have it, and then realize they actually don’t.

From what they have said, my impression is that investigators seem to know that ‘missing piece’ is out there, and whether it comes in the form of an admission from someone, current or future advances in DNA, or by unearthing other photographic proof that he was there that day….if it exists, it will be found.

It is so darn hard to be patient when we all want justice and to see this disgusting murderer on the front page of newspapers nation-wide with the word ‘ARRESTED’ above his face so that he won’t be able to hide under the title ‘BG’ anymore. We will all know his name one day and we will see his face and he won't be able to hide in a pixelated video anymore.

Don’t give up…..I still believe that day is coming.
This case is not cold.

All JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I remember a YouTube audio-only interview with Tobe Leazenby in which he said all the original focus was toward local, but when that didn't lead anywhere they switched to non-local emphasis. I think that interview was with Katt. It was prior to the two-year anniversary.

It must have been something regarding the car that caused authorities to switch back to local. Through subsequent digging they apparently had reason to believe the CPS car ventured through Delphi earlier in the day, and seemed to have familiarity. I think that's why they shifted back to local in the 2019 presser.

It could also be a case of local authorities deciding to do it their own way, to follow their own instincts, once the FBI and national presence was not as great.

Good post.

I still wonder why they haven't released a vehicle description.

JMO

 

[somequestions]

A defense attorney’s dream, I think, would be knowing that an investigation had been based on a lot of guessing. Educated guesses perhaps in order to explore a certain aspect, but I can’t imagine LE, in this or any case, just guessing and making stuff up to present to the public as true to the case, just to see if maybe something might happen. First, it’s a waste of time, second, if found out, all credibility in LE is lost. And again, a field day for the defense at trial.

I want to clarify. I never wrote that LE is simply making things up to present to the public. I meant that I think in April 2019 they looked at the Delphi murder case investigation and said to themselves: "We tried the video, we tried the first sketch, and we have nothing. We have this sketch from February 2017 (2nd sketch) with information that may tie this individual to a car parked nearby so let's just put this out this. Maybe we get lucky with a name and this witness ends up being the one who actually saw this man leaving the trail. It is worth a shot."

I think today LE are still investigating the Delphi case. They have thousands of tips to go over and over. Now based on what I wrote above, is that considered guessing or not? That is each individual person's opinion to determine for themselves.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I want to clarify. I never wrote that LE is simply making things up to present to the public. I meant that I think in April 2019 they looked at the Delphi murder case investigation and said to themselves: "We tried the video, we tried the first sketch, and we have nothing. We have this sketch from February 2017 (2nd sketch) with information that may tie this individual to a car parked nearby so let's just put this out this. Maybe we get lucky with a name and this witness ends up being the one who actually saw this man leaving the trail. It is worth a shot."

I think today LE are still investigating the Delphi case. They have thousands of tips to go over and over. Now based on what I wrote above, is that considered guessing or not? That is each individual person's opinion to determine for themselves.

Thanks for clarifying. Sorry I misunderstood. We’re on the same page it seems.

 

[SouthernMom]

Just checking in and so sad to see that this case is still unsolved. The Evansdale Iowa Case of Lyric Cook Morrisey and Elizabeth Collins is also still unsolved after 8 years. How could two separate yet similar crimes go unsolved this long? Who are these criminals that they could go undiscovered for years? The two examples that give me an idea of who could do this and how are the crimes of Joseph Duncan and also Michael Klunder.

 

[sandy_80]

I want to clarify. I never wrote that LE is simply making things up to present to the public. I meant that I think in April 2019 they looked at the Delphi murder case investigation and said to themselves: "We tried the video, we tried the first sketch, and we have nothing. We have this sketch from February 2017 (2nd sketch) with information that may tie this individual to a car parked nearby so let's just put this out this. Maybe we get lucky with a name and this witness ends up being the one who actually saw this man leaving the trail. It is worth a shot."

I think today LE are still investigating the Delphi case. They have thousands of tips to go over and over. Now based on what I wrote above, is that considered guessing or not? That is each individual person's opinion to determine for themselves.

I kinda of agree...I have more reasons for them to be pushing the second sketch
...the worse part is that the sketches only created that much chaos and confusion and that's it... no suspect would be brought to this case based on a sketch ......and LE is telling us that the video that the girls so bravely captured is basically useless ?
yes..cause LE can not even put a clear profile for the suspect from the video and audio.. he could be just anyone ....they tell you to focus on his gait instead ??? he was walking on a broken bridge ...and they tell you to focus on his gait...that's how desperate they seem

 

[JnRyan]

I've contended for some time that the release of a sketch in 2017 and then a different sketch in 2019 has caused confusion. The unique aspect of this sketch is that no one saw this killer commit the murders or even saw him at the crime scene. This sketch was likely a process of elimination by LE when interviewing those at the trail about who they saw that day
In playing devil's advocate to my own concept, I went back to one particular crime where there has been an arrest. The Golden State Killer - formerly known as the East Area Rapist/Original Night Stalker or EAR-ONS. There LE had various descriptions or sketches. Of course, some of these were of persons seen in the vicinity of the crime and not of the person in the act of committing the crimes. Those sketches have variations.
3 sketches the FBI was working with (EAR_Sketches.jpg)

Other sketches (ONS_composites.jpg).

What the killer looked like in 1973 (Joseph_James_DeAngelo.jpg)

Some of these might be close, but I don't believe one of three sketches - the third - is even close to DeAngelo. And some of these sketches are based on witnesses who might have been closer to the crime scene than the witnesses we have here with Abigail and Liberty's case. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some doubt among the investigators here as to which sketch most accurately depicts the killer at Delphi. Hence, ISP Superintendent Carter stating that he might be somewhere in between the two sketches.

 

[sandy_80]

its presumed that DeAngelo was a master in changing his appearance...there was a time when he was on the force when he was unrecognizable ...he was very thin... his full cheeks flat and he had a moustache......which might explain the many varieties of sketches
another thing that makes sketches useless
my wish for these brave girls ...is that they get better treatment...
they deserve better.. better ppl
fresh eyes...experts..any help for outside...
paul holes offered assistance but was ignored...as seen on his twitter

 

[minazoe]

my feeling is we are looking for the Evansdale killer. I think even the names of the victims are even so similar.
and the dates too...

two very specific sets of victimologies and killing areas,
2 victims
young girls together
rural setting
daytime

both cases close by geographically

he has a specific fantasy
that has escalated
hence the showy display.

although I think he may have wanted to get them into a vehicle but it didn't work out for him.
if it had he might have moved the girls some miles away to create distance.

mOO

 

[Yemelyan]

my feeling is we are looking for the Evansdale killer. I think even the names of the victims are even so similar.
and the dates too...

two very specific sets of victimologies and killing areas,
2 victims
young girls together
rural setting
daytime

both cases close by geographically

Snipped and bolded by me...

The cases may turn out to be linked but they are not in any way close geographically, or not how I would define "close."

Evansdale, IA and Delphi, IN are 400 miles apart, or over 6 hours driving distance.

 

[SouthernMom]

Snipped and bolded by me...

The cases may turn out to be linked but they are not in any way close geographically, or not how I would define "close."

Evansdale, IA and Delphi, IN are 400 miles apart, or over 6 hours driving distance.

I'm still not decided on whether the Evansdale case and the Delphi case are connected. I do think it is entirely possible though. Due to no reports of someone coming forward to say they know the killer and details of similar crimes, I do believe the killer acted alone. Just my opinion. It's so scary to think there could be more than one of these creeps out there.

 

[SouthernMom]

my feeling is we are looking for the Evansdale killer. I think even the names of the victims are even so similar.
and the dates too...

two very specific sets of victimologies and killing areas,
2 victims
young girls together
rural setting
daytime

both cases close by geographically

he has a specific fantasy
that has escalated
hence the showy display.

although I think he may have wanted to get them into a vehicle but it didn't work out for him.
if it had he might have moved the girls some miles away to create distance.

mOO

You could be right. However, there is a lot that is unknown about what happened to the Evansdale girls. Due to the length of time that passed before their bodies were undiscovered, there was probably very little evidence at the discovery scene. I'm not even sure if it could be known that the location where the Evansdale girls died is the same as the one where they were eventually found.
Of course, the Delphi killer may have planned to take Liberty and Abby to a different location but something happened.

For some reason, knowing all the information about both crimes, the investigators say they DO NOT believe the two are connected. BBM
My respects to all points of view.

 

[sunshineray]

"However, [former Carroll County prosecutor Robert] Ives raised the possibility that elements of the scene had been staged in an attempt to trick investigators by sending them down a false path."...

"Retired FBI profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole, who has worked on cases such as the Green River Killer...

On staging, she explained: 'staging tends to be done most often by somebody who knows the victims'."

Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online

Staging the crime scene is most often done by someone who know the victim(s). Per the April 2019 press conference, killer never thought LE would change their investigative strategy and the killer wanted to know what LE knows.

All of those sound to me like the former Carroll County prosecutor, LE investigators and former LE investigative consultants feel the crime scene was staged by a manipulative killer, the killer was locally known and the killer most likely knew the victims somehow.

I really hate to say this but I think this is a cold case, a stand off of sorts. LE may even know who's responsible for killing Abby and Libby but I don't feel they can prove it in a court of law. I also think whomever may have known who is responsible has either fled the area in fear or has passed away.

LE very obviously doesn't want to share anymore information with the public. If by chance a tip does produce a person willing to testify in a meaningful way, LE will need every bit of evidence as pristine as the day it was left at the scene. AJMO

If someone knows they should speak it.