Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Ravenmoon]

Not sure what I am trying to accomplish here, maybe I am just summing this all up for myself.

What (I think ) I know:
This trip wasn't pre-planned.
BP has said that the girls were restless. They had asked if they could have some type of outing- but BP had work to do and told the girls that if they could do some filing and office type work for them, she would pay them and maybe they could head out to the mall later that day..BUT, teenagers sometimes have a hard time waiting and asked KG to give them a ride to the trails to fill in a couple of hours.Libby loved being outside and taking photos and , in my mind, Abby loved being wherever Libby was. I don't think they expected more than some fresh air, silly fun and the adventure of being on a forbidden bridge . You know- rebellious for a couple of kids that really never got into any trouble.
KG dropped them off knowing that her dad would be there in a n hour or two and also mentioning that there were others around. I am sure knowing others were around in broad daylight gave her comfort.
It HAS been mentioned that the girls DID reference this guy in audio at some point. What was said exactly is up for debate. The feeling was that they found him "odd or creepy".
Libby posted Abby's photo on Snap Chat around 2:07 PM.
Apparently, the video of this monster seems to have been taken between 2:17 and 2:27 PM. This seems to vary with different officials.
It has been said that from start to finish, the entire depraved act took no more than 60 minutes.
We have a voice- we have words. The words are strikingly different in tone and sound. We know that they are from the SAME person through the words of LE who have heard and viewed the entire recording.
We know that there were "signatures" left at the CS.
We don't what those were.
We know that the crime scene was labeled "odd."
That...could mean a million different things.
We know that today, this monster is between the ages of 18 and 40, but could appear younger than his true age.

What we can assume safely through LE-
He is local, or knows this area WELL.
He is not in ill health (or- he was not at the time of the murders)
He is likely hiding in plain sight.

What I want to know?
Has he done this before? (what are others opinions?)
Has he done this since?
Who else knows? ( I do NOT believe there is NOT at least ONE person that knows)
Is he well known in the community? ( Personally, I think so)
Was this premeditated in the weirdest of ways?
Was his alibi found to be untrue?( I think so)

Anyhow... I do NOT go a single solitary day NOT thinking about these kids.
Seriously. I have a daughter that is the same. This is the case that haunts me- because it seems so solvable. Because these poor kids did nothing except be kids.

What are we missing??? What the he*! are we missing???

AMOO JMO MOO

 

[pearl]

So he emerges when Abby reached the end of the bridge, with Libby already having been there for a period of time. He walks past them without arousing any suspicion, simply a guy on a hike in the woods, says excuse me, and heads out on to the bridge as far as he was, checking to make sure things were clear as far as he could see.

Libby sees him spin around and head back swiftly toward them. Her spidey senses go in overdrive and she gets her phone out.

Off the general topic, but check the picture of Abby on the bridge. She appears to have a cellphone in her pocket. If not a phone, there appears to be something rectangular in there.

ALL speculation.

It looks to me that Abby's hand is pressing down on something in the pocket that has a hard straight edge like a cell phone does. I can see this but cannot see things pointed out in BG's picture.

 

[Satchie]

What I want to know?
Has he done this before? (what are others opinions?)
Has he done this since?
Who else knows? ( I do NOT believe there is NOT at least ONE person that knows)
Is he well known in the community? ( Personally, I think so)
Was this premeditated in the weirdest of ways?
Was his alibi found to be untrue?( I think so)

Anyhow... I do NOT go a single solitary day NOT thinking about these kids.
Seriously. I have a daughter that is the same. This is the case that haunts me- because it seems so solvable. Because these poor kids did nothing except be kids.

What are we missing??? What the he*! are we missing???

AMOO JMO MOO

RSBM

Just answering some:

Has he done this before? it's been pointed out by others, that it's very rare for someone to kidnap and murder two victims simultaneously. It requires a lot of self confidence to control two pre-teens, and could indicate the person already has experience with
single victim murders and has now branched beyond that.

Who else knows? I don't know why anyone else would know, there doesn't seem to have been an accomplice. In all the cases that I've followed, serial killers haven't told anyone about their crimes, if they do, they will very likely be turned in by their confidant (for eg, the current suspect in the McCann case allegedly bragged to someone about knowing what happened, and that person went to police).

Well known in the community? IMO, not that likely in such a small a town. Just by his short height alone, such a man would stand out as a suspect to everyone. However, IMO someone who previously lived in the area or on the fringes of the area, so knew the bridge and that park and felt comfortable there. IMO he may have left the area after the crime.

Was this premeditated? IMO, it's very likely this person was behaving in a predatory way, hanging around the park looking for a potential victim(s). This is typical of serial-type killers, they are looking to commit murder of someone, rather than anyone in particular.

<modsnip: No MSM or LE to substantiate>

Sadly, cases can and do remain unsolved. The US is huge, the population is mobile, a person can do what they want without being tracked or traced in any way. I think the best hope is if he caught trying to do something else.

JMO

 

[JnRyan]

Not sure what I am trying to accomplish here, maybe I am just summing this all up for myself.

What (I think ) I know:
This trip wasn't pre-planned.
BP has said that the girls were restless. They had asked if they could have some type of outing- but BP had work to do and told the girls that if they could do some filing and office type work for them, she would pay them and maybe they could head out to the mall later that day..BUT, teenagers sometimes have a hard time waiting and asked KG to give them a ride to the trails to fill in a couple of hours.Libby loved being outside and taking photos and , in my mind, Abby loved being wherever Libby was. I don't think they expected more than some fresh air, silly fun and the adventure of being on a forbidden bridge . You know- rebellious for a couple of kids that really never got into any trouble.
KG dropped them off knowing that her dad would be there in a n hour or two and also mentioning that there were others around. I am sure knowing others were around in broad daylight gave her comfort.
It HAS been mentioned that the girls DID reference this guy in audio at some point. What was said exactly is up for debate. The feeling was that they found him "odd or creepy".
Libby posted Abby's photo on Snap Chat around 2:07 PM.
Apparently, the video of this monster seems to have been taken between 2:17 and 2:27 PM. This seems to vary with different officials.
It has been said that from start to finish, the entire depraved act took no more than 60 minutes.
We have a voice- we have words. The words are strikingly different in tone and sound. We know that they are from the SAME person through the words of LE who have heard and viewed the entire recording.
We know that there were "signatures" left at the CS.
We don't what those were.
We know that the crime scene was labeled "odd."
That...could mean a million different things.
We know that today, this monster is between the ages of 18 and 40, but could appear younger than his true age.

What we can assume safely through LE-
He is local, or knows this area WELL.
He is not in ill health (or- he was not at the time of the murders)
He is likely hiding in plain sight.

What I want to know?
Has he done this before? (what are others opinions?)
Has he done this since?
Who else knows? ( I do NOT believe there is NOT at least ONE person that knows)
Is he well known in the community? ( Personally, I think so)
Was this premeditated in the weirdest of ways?
Was his alibi found to be untrue?( I think so)

Anyhow... I do NOT go a single solitary day NOT thinking about these kids.
Seriously. I have a daughter that is the same. This is the case that haunts me- because it seems so solvable. Because these poor kids did nothing except be kids.

What are we missing??? What the he*! are we missing???

AMOO JMO MOO

There are the phone calls by Liberty's father as he was driving to the site. At 3:11 Liberty's father, Derrick, texted Liberty and didn't receive a reply. I believe 3:14 is when he actually arrived. If we're looking at a 2:17 to 2:27 time for the beginning, then the 2:17 time puts it at just under 60 minutes. There are some of us on here (myself included) that believe the girls were already dead or dying by 3:11. I tend to believe that by the time Derrick went out to look for the girls the killer had already made his way out from the crime scene. And probably through or near the cemetery. By 3:30 when Derrick contacted his mother, I believe this killer was already in his vehicle if not already on the road.

Has he done it before? I don't believe it is his first crime against women or children even if this was his first murder. If he has done it since, I believe it is likely he killed a different victim type such as a late teen or early 20's woman. Different victim types have occurred and the killer Robert Brashers comes to mind as someone who assaulted and/or killed children (Megan Scherer) as well as an adult (Zitricki). Because Zitricki was murdered in SC and the Scherer's in MO eight years later, LE did not immediately make the connection.
Robert Eugene Brashers - Wikipedia

In the case of the killer here I don't believe anyone knows. I believe there are others in Indiana that have looked at that video and the sketches and can think of someone who resembles the killer but aren't sure enough to make the call. After almost 4 years I don't believe there is anyone around the killer that can remember whether or not he was absent from his residence on 13 Feb 2017. If he lives by himself and was self employed or had that day off, then his absence on that day probably went unnoticed at that time.

 

[somequestions]

I have a hard time imagining BG starting from the south end of the bridge, passing them, then turning back around. That bridge is pretty scary and doesn’t appear to be made for people to pass each other. It might have happened but I would have to vote that the killer simply followed them onto the bridge as some distance.

I think all we can do is guess because we do not have any more information. But it certainly would be strange if after the 2:07pm timestamp of Libby's picture of Abby looking back at the bridge, the timestamp for the start of the video Libby took was 2:09 pm.

Edit: 2:09 pm is just an example time. I do not want it to seem like it is fact. Does anyone know the timestamp for the start of Liberty German's video of bridge guy?

 

[MistyWaters]

It looks to me that Abby's hand is pressing down on something in the pocket that has a hard straight edge like a cell phone does. I can see this but cannot see things pointed out in BG's picture.

This has been something I’ve also wondered about because of the pocket and early on, the possibility Abby had a cellphone has been discussed. However her mother denied it and possibly Riley misspoke....but still, who knows, maybe it became holdback evidence and now nobody’s saying.

Feb 17, 2017
ISP on Delphi murders: "Everyone is a suspect"
Delphi, Indiana: State police say technology is key in the search for the Delphi killer
“We’re checking their cell phones, we’re checking their social media places Twitter, Facebook and that to see if there’s some type of connection there,” said Sgt. Riley. “We’re looking at every possible option.”....”

 

[MistyWaters]

I think all we can do is guess because we do not have any more information. But it certainly would be strange if after the 2:07pm timestamp of Libby's picture of Abby looking back at the bridge, the timestamp for the start of the video Libby took was 2:09 pm.

When the family and Carter appeared on the Dr Phil show in Dec/17 the time of Libby’s video was mentioned. IIRC it was 2:33pm. It was also mentioned here several times the FBI billboards stated a time of 2:30pm, if anybody remembers that?

 

[BNA]

they were at the end of the bridge with nowhere really to go at that point.

JMO

No offense intended, but this isn't The Truman Show. The world is not walled off at the end of that bridge.

I am not blaming them for not running, tho.

I doubt that it even occurred to them to run until it was too late.

And, there is likely more to this than them simply being oblivious to danger.

 

[BNA]

It looks to me that Abby's hand is pressing down on something in the pocket that has a hard straight edge like a cell phone does. I can see this but cannot see things pointed out in BG's picture.

If there is something in there, from what we know it was not a phone. But we do not know for sure that it was not a phone.

I had a niece about that age who carried 3 phones around in three separate purses. That was decades ago.

It could be a phone that nobody but the girls knew about. Or, it could be a change purse. She would be holding whatever it is to make sure that it did not fall out of her pocket to the ground or creek below.

Remember the LE admonition: Know what your kids are doing. I think there was a specific reason that those words were uttered. Don't be writing that off.

 

[news buff]

Was it Kelsi who said that the phone didn't move?

 

[Ravenmoon]

Was it Kelsi who said that the phone didn't move?

Not sure that I understand the question?
Could you clarify?

 

[news buff]

Not sure that I understand the question?
Could you clarify?

Yes, sorry to be unclear. I remember reading that Libby's phone had appeared to be in town, being carried about, after the time of the murders. Then read that it showed that pattern because of two cell phone towers. But cannot remember if Law Enforcement spoke about the phone, or if it was Kelsi.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Yes, sorry to be unclear. I remember reading that Libby's phone had appeared to be in town, being carried about, after the time of the murders. Then read that it showed that pattern because of two cell phone towers. But cannot remember if Law Enforcement spoke about the phone, or if it was Kelsi.

Gotcha! It may have been both that clarified this.

EBM for Spelling..of course

 

[Yemelyan]

Yes, sorry to be unclear. I remember reading that Libby's phone had appeared to be in town, being carried about, after the time of the murders. Then read that it showed that pattern because of two cell phone towers. But cannot remember if Law Enforcement spoke about the phone, or if it was Kelsi.

It wasn't Kelsi, it was another family member who said the phone was pinging around town. But this has since been interpreted as how the phone pinged off the (at that time) two cell towers.

 

[Yemelyan]

IMO the actual phrase "creepy guy" is a rumor at this point. Specifically, it came from a GH show but his remarks, in context, show that he was paraphrasing (at best) or speculating might be a better way to say it, based on what he had been told by relatives who had listened to more of the audio. It was never meant to be a direct quote, though many have run with the idea as though it was.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Not sure what I am trying to accomplish here, maybe I am just summing this all up for myself.

What (I think ) I know:
This trip wasn't pre-planned.
BP has said that the girls were restless. They had asked if they could have some type of outing- but BP had work to do and told the girls that if they could do some filing and office type work for them, she would pay them and maybe they could head out to the mall later that day..BUT, teenagers sometimes have a hard time waiting and asked KG to give them a ride to the trails to fill in a couple of hours.Libby loved being outside and taking photos and , in my mind, Abby loved being wherever Libby was. I don't think they expected more than some fresh air, silly fun and the adventure of being on a forbidden bridge . You know- rebellious for a couple of kids that really never got into any trouble.
KG dropped them off knowing that her dad would be there in a n hour or two and also mentioning that there were others around. I am sure knowing others were around in broad daylight gave her comfort.
It HAS been mentioned that the girls DID reference this guy in audio at some point. What was said exactly is up for debate. The feeling was that they found him "odd or creepy".
Libby posted Abby's photo on Snap Chat around 2:07 PM.
Apparently, the video of this monster seems to have been taken between 2:17 and 2:27 PM. This seems to vary with different officials.
It has been said that from start to finish, the entire depraved act took no more than 60 minutes.
We have a voice- we have words. The words are strikingly different in tone and sound. We know that they are from the SAME person through the words of LE who have heard and viewed the entire recording.
We know that there were "signatures" left at the CS.
We don't what those were.
We know that the crime scene was labeled "odd."
That...could mean a million different things.
We know that today, this monster is between the ages of 18 and 40, but could appear younger than his true age.

What we can assume safely through LE-
He is local, or knows this area WELL.
He is not in ill health (or- he was not at the time of the murders)
He is likely hiding in plain sight.

What I want to know?
Has he done this before? (what are others opinions?)
Has he done this since?
Who else knows? ( I do NOT believe there is NOT at least ONE person that knows)
Is he well known in the community? ( Personally, I think so)
Was this premeditated in the weirdest of ways?
Was his alibi found to be untrue?( I think so)

Anyhow... I do NOT go a single solitary day NOT thinking about these kids.
Seriously. I have a daughter that is the same. This is the case that haunts me- because it seems so solvable. Because these poor kids did nothing except be kids.

What are we missing??? What the he*! are we missing???

AMOO JMO MOO

I really like everything in this post!
I’ll give my thoughts on a few things you mention.

...I am torn about whether he’s done this before. I tend to think he was more lucky than experienced.
...I don’t think he has done anything since. I’m sure LE is keeping an eye out for something similar in some way. I think he would have been arrested already if he had committed another crime.
...I think there are one or two people who suspect someone they know might be him, but I don’t think he has told anyone or anyone knows for sure what he’s done.
...Personally I don’t think he is well known in the community. I think if he was, lots of folks would have recognized him and a decent number would have called about him.
...Yes to premeditated if you mean the killer set out in search of someone to kill. No if you mean he had a plan to specifically kill Libby and/or Abby.
...I agree about the alibi he gave LE being untrue. But then wouldn’t that mean LE knows who the killer is? A whole new can of worms there.
Just my thoughts.


...

 

[somequestions]

When the family and Carter appeared on the Dr Phil show in Dec/17 the time of Libby’s video was mentioned. IIRC it was 2:33pm. It was also mentioned here several times the FBI billboards stated a time of 2:30pm, if anybody remembers that?

Ok, thanks for the information. So that would mean that from the time Libby took the picture of Abby at 2:07 pm, Abby was "on" the bridge for approximately 26 more minutes if bridge guy was behind her?

 

[MistyWaters]

IMO the actual phrase "creepy guy" is a rumor at this point. Specifically, it came from a GH show but his remarks, in context, show that he was paraphrasing (at best) or speculating might be a better way to say it, based on what he had been told by relatives who had listened to more of the audio. It was never meant to be a direct quote, though many have run with the idea as though it was.

I recall a creepy guy mentioned in UK news report as well but it was the reporter’s presumption of what the girls talked about.

 

[MistyWaters]

Ok, thanks for the information. So that would mean that from the time Libby took the picture of Abby at 2:07 pm, Abby was "on" the bridge for approximately 26 more minutes if bridge guy was behind her?

Great question!

The sequence that took place has probably been a topic of almost 100 of these threads and it’s still a puzzler.

ETA - I’ve had many different thoughts as time passes but here’s another one that’s a little different. -
BG appears from what looks like nowhere at the far end of the bridge and starts walking along it toward the girls who are midway taking photos, idle chatting etc. The bridge is too narrow to safely pass, especially by a stranger, so the girls backtrack off the bridge and BG walks on by, heading toward the trail system. They think that’s the last they’ll see of him. The girls once again go back onto the bridge and proceed to take more photos.

But soon again he appears at the entrance to the bridge and he’s begun to formulate a plan because he knows he’ll cause them to walk right to the end in order to allow him to pass by. They do exactly that, walk off the bridge, even though they didn’t intend to walk the full length. The “girl talk” and mention of him pertains to annoyance rather than fear.

So they wait for him to keep on walking on by, exiting off the bridge back to wherever he came from but that’s not what happens. When he says the word “guys” it’s his way of getting their attention considering both the girls were probably ignoring him. This is only my speculation.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Great post, but I disagree wholeheartedly, and even more so when you detailed how long it would take. They were not cornered by any stretch of the imagination. Moreover, and this is a possibility, A and L could have only crossed due to being wary of their pursuer, but the Abby photo blows that out of the water because they weren't running from anyone when it was taken. Correct me if I misread, but why would they have waited until BG closed the distance to start recording? They weren't worried, and German already had the phone out during the Abby picture with BG not in the background. They were weary at some point, but it certainly wasn't when they were halfway across, because they would have fled rather than stopped for pictures of Abby walking on the tracks. By your estimate, 2:00 was roughly 30-40% of the maneuver, yet BG was not on video until probably he was about 90% across. That gives them a ridiculous amount of time to flee, notably, because you can see hundreds of feet down the trail, far past the west side of the ravine during the Abby pic, and BG wasn't on it. So, and I'm just reviewing what you had written, it's about a five-minute walk across the bridge at an average pace, and the victims were clearly over it by the time they were intercepted with no one tailing them for what appeared to be several hundred feet down the tracks. No one is tailing them, yet they feel trapped at the middle of the bridge by their pursuer who isn't remotely close to them, and commit to the crossing where they wait on the east side for 5-10 minutes for the guy to catch them, then wait all that time to fail to flee to three of a possible four directions from their pursuer who had one. That's like someone being killed by a closing garage door with five minutes to get out of the way.

bbm
It would make sense only, if the end of the MHB was their given meeting point or if the girls thought, an accomplice was already waiting and they didn't know, at what place exactly. IMO