Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert #2

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Yes and my take on it is she was in a panic and in fear for her life, she was already on the horn to 911 when she reached GC's. Maybe in her mind when GC said he was calling 911, she thought he was calling someone else, I mean evidently at that moment in time she was trusting NO ONE. We are all going on the info that is/was available to us, we simply weren't "there". If I remember correctly she was said to have only uttered the words "help me, help me, help me!" It makes sense to me that she in fact, well? Needed help. Lucid or not. Again, its just my take on it, that's why we're on here :)

The thing that never sits right with me, if she was so scared of the police she ran at their mention, why did she call 911? Doesn’t add up. The female neighbour (whose name escapes me) didn’t let her in and said she was calling the police. There’s some doubt about what Coletti originally said he didn’t let her in and the 911 tape apparently confirmed that (though he later said he had let her in) so she ran and hid behind his boat when MP came , then bolted when it appeared GC was going to speak to him and give away her hiding place.

It seems much more likely to me that SG did not run away because the police had been called, but because they wouldn’t let her in where she would be safe and hidden from MP. Given she was on the phone to police herself but we know she was hiding from MP, isn’t that the most likely answer?
 
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I don’t think so in NY. Only if they took her across state lines. MP said she’d got the train from NJ to meet him in Manhattan. He had taken precautions to make sure he couldn’t be prosecuted.

Remember he himself never called the police and told Colletti he shouldn’t have called them.

Plus in that situation, what were the police going to do? All they would’ve had was a guy saying he was with a friend at a party, she may have been using and seemed to have had a psychotic break. No offences there for MP. There would be nobody to contradict that and if found, Shannan wouldn’t have willingly admitted being a sex worker/on drugs. And if she was in a situation needing rescue, it’s likely that would mean no prosecutions of someone who tried to help.

Plus Ozcam’s razor. If her death was an accident and nobody at the party had any idea about the Gilgo bodies, everyone there would simply have assumed SG had run off intoxicated in a perilous area. Often there seems to be an assumption that in these circumstances there would be as much panic for MP and JB as if they knew there were other bodies/evidence of dead women/evidence SG was drugged. If they were innocent their state of panic just wouldn’t have happened.

IIRC MP made no calls to her after leaving to check on her nor tried to contact her loved ones until her boyfriend called him.

Also, if street smarts matter, how come so many sex workers are killed? They’realmost all street smart. Still many die.

Well I never insinuated street smarts save sex workers from getting killed. I was mentioning it to imply that most of them know how to get around/find a ride spur of the moment.
 
The thing that never sits right with me, if she was so scared of the police she ran at their mention, why did she call 911? Doesn’t add up. The female neighbour (whose name escapes me) didn’t let her in and said she was calling the police. There’s some doubt about what Coletti originally said he didn’t let her in and the 911 tape apparently confirmed that (though he later said he had let her in) so she ran and hid behind his boat when MP came , then bolted when it appeared GC was going to speak to him and give away her hiding place.

It seems much more likely to me that SG did not run away because the police had been called, but because they wouldn’t let her in where she would be safe and hidden from MP. Given she was on the phone to police herself but we know she was hiding from MP, isn’t that the most likely answer?

Yes I agree, it was MP that she was trying to evade.
 
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I would offer that this discussion can be corelated directly to the (non)release of the 911 call tapes. To be fully transparent here, I understand the desire for those immediately involved (Gilbert family and attorney) and the rest of the public (very much including all of us) for this to be provided, I also do believe there is a significant importance to keep the specifics of the call close to LE’s vest as the investigation continues to go forward.

On the one hand, LE is under extreme pressure to provide more information (evidence) while they are obligated to protect the same in order that they may charge and prosecute without prejudice. There is so, so much more to the this than just SG. This is where I weighed in on other threads.

GROUPINGS

Between December 2010 and December 2011, eleven sets of remains (or partial remains) were discovered on Jones Island. The last remains were those of SG. These remains can be initially grouped into five separate fragments based on (dis)similarities for initial investigation.

A. Baby Doe because she is the only child;
B. Asian male because it is the only set of male remains;
C. ALC, MB, MBB and MW because their remains were all (reported) to have been wrapped in burlap;
D. Four sets of partial remains, and;
E. SG because she almost got away.

FRAGMENT A: Initially, Baby Doe could have simply been an abandoned child. Later DNA testing proved that Baby Doe was the child of one of the partial remains on Jones Island. It is not a stretch to assume baby Doe was with “mom” at the time of her demise. It is logical to add Baby Doe to FRAGMENT D (with her mother).

FRAGMENT B: The only male remains. Dressed in women’s clothes. Might have been advertising as an escort. Might have just been picked up ‘at the bar’. Might have been killed after true sex was discovered. Variously reported as “teeth removed” or “poor dental health”. To date, no DNA identification. Not enough detail available to the public to work with.

FRAGMENT C: The easiest. All four remains were reported “wrapped in burlap” placed within 1500 feet of each other. There were no reports that these victims were dismembered or that they were partial remain. All four disappeared within two years of each other. All Craigslist/Backpage escorts. Various revelations of “leave your cellphone behind”, “client is trustworthy”, “high paying client” and “don’t want/need a driver either way.” These were ‘newer’ and ‘intact’ victims. High likelihood they are victims of the same perpetrator(s).

FRAGMENT D: These four sets of remains began as unknowns. All four were dismembered with only partial remains on Jones Beach. Two were linked to partial remains previously found in Manorville and ultimately identified as VM and JT. Another matched partial to remains found on Blue Point Beach and referred to as Fire Island Jane Doe. The last set were matched to remains found previously in Rockville Center and known to be ‘Peaches’. It is further determined Peaches was the mother of Baby Doe. The first remains of these four victims were found in 1996 (two victims), 1997 and 2003. The Jones Beach remains had been in place for as long as 14 years prior to discovery. These are ‘older’ crimes.

FRAGMENT E: This piece is unique because it was relatively fresh and afforded a lot of investigatory promise because of witnesses, testimony, 911 tapes, dispatch tapes/logs, phone records, security video. For all intent and purpose, this case had a wealth of evidence not available to LE regarding the other ‘older’ victims recently discovered.

Some, or all, or none of these fragments (B through D) may or may not be related.

Windsor -- Suppose for a moment that SG (1) was actually able to provide more precise location information but it was mishandled (beyond the transfer of the call to NY State Police); (2) provided additional information as to why she feared for her life; (3) was able to provide names or provide descriptions; or what if (4) when SG was on 911 while still at JB’s and the background voices were not just JB and MP as has been reported and (5) those voices were identifiable and in contradiction to what JB and MP gave in following investigative discussion; (6) as SG went door to door while still connected to 911 that the homeowners’ voices were also recorded and later testimony found contradiction; or, OMG, even worse (7) the tapes reveal SG encounters someone while running who identifies themselves as LE; what if that voice is identifiable?

If releasing the 911 tapes were to simply reveal a terribly mishandled call that would be an embarrassment to the County, current LE and prosecution would jump to release them with great fanfare if only to be able to say “that was then, this is now” and “that happened under the old guard and we are here now fixing things.”

There is very likely something tangible on those tapes that indicates a culpability and LE has not yet compiled enough evidence to secure a conviction. And if that intended conviction is for a government official? There need be a lot of credible, solid, untainted evidence. Things need be done by the book.

“SG death was a homicide?” My personal opinion? ABSOLUTELY. But much is clouded in the original (non)investigation effort and (non)disclosure. More later.
 
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Let's say you are at night out, you lost your wallet, but you have your cellphone, you and your boyfriend/girlfriend live in an apartment, and you have money at home, would that be wrong to assume you could find a way home regardless whether you are street smart or not ?
 
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Let's say you are at night out, you lost your wallet, but you have your cellphone, you and your boyfriend/girlfriend live in an apartment, and you have money at home, would that be wrong to assume you could find a way home regardless whether you are street smart or not ?

It’s possible that’s what he thought when leaving.
 
Let's say you are at night out, you lost your wallet, but you have your cellphone, you and your boyfriend/girlfriend live in an apartment, and you have money at home, would that be wrong to assume you could find a way home regardless whether you are street smart or not ?
Absolutely you should be able to find your way home. Unless you did not know where you are. Your boyfriend, was know to be violent, as he had broken your jaw previously, and it required surgery. They is no public transportation available, and no retail stores, restaurants, or similar refuges. Oh, one other thing you were being followed, and believed your life was in great danger. Likely given enough time due to daylight and the arrival of the Police, Shannan would have been fine.
 
What happened to our maps thread ? I can't find it anywhere. I'm trying to refresh my memory regarding the proximity of Barbara Brennan's house to Hackett's house.

Did you find the maps thread? I see so many threads... some locked, some open... easily confusing to find things (imo).
 
Did you find the maps thread? I see so many threads... some locked, some open... easily confusing to find things (imo).

I did. It's under News, TV and Radio. Why it got stuck in there is beyond me...it should be it's own thread.
 
Hey folks,

Unless an approved link can be provided to substantiate that Shannan suffered from mental illness or a drug addiction, do not speculate in that regard. It is a violation of Websleuths victim friendly policy.

VICTIM FRIENDLY

Websleuths is a victim friendly forum. Attacking or bashing a victim is not allowed. Discussing victim behavior, good or bad is fine, but do so in a civil and constructive way, and only when such behavior is known to be relevant to the case.

The "victim friendly" rule extends to the family members of victims and suspects. Sleuthing family members, friends, and others who have not been designated as suspects is not allowed. Don't make random accusations, suggest their involvement, nor bash and attack them. Posting their personal information, including names, addresses, and background data -- even if it is public -- is not allowed. That does not mean, however, that statements made by family members and other third parties cannot come into discussion as the facts of the case are reported in the media.
 
I don’t think so in NY. Only if they took her across state lines. MP said she’d got the train from NJ to meet him in Manhattan. He had taken precautions to make sure he couldn’t be prosecuted.

Remember he himself never called the police and told Colletti he shouldn’t have called them.

Plus in that situation, what were the police going to do? All they would’ve had was a guy saying he was with a friend at a party, she may have been using and seemed to have had a psychotic break. No offences there for MP. There would be nobody to contradict that and if found, Shannan wouldn’t have willingly admitted being a sex worker/on drugs. And if she was in a situation needing rescue, it’s likely that would mean no prosecutions of someone who tried to help.

Plus Ozcam’s razor. If her death was an accident and nobody at the party had any idea about the Gilgo bodies, everyone there would simply have assumed SG had run off intoxicated in a perilous area. Often there seems to be an assumption that in these circumstances there would be as much panic for MP and JB as if they knew there were other bodies/evidence of dead women/evidence SG was drugged. If they were innocent their state of panic just wouldn’t have happened.

IIRC MP made no calls to her after leaving to check on her nor tried to contact her loved ones until her boyfriend called him.

Also, if street smarts matter, how come so many sex workers are killed? They’realmost all street smart. Still many die.
Money.
 
Okay, let us assume that Joseph Brewer and Michael Pak had no motive to harm Shannan Gilbert. In fact they were trying to help and be of aid to her. Despite their best efforts, she ran into the marsh and died of exposure. No crime no foul. case closed.

Except for some reason the SCPD has not closed the case, and for years has fought to supress publication of evidence, because as far as the SCPD is concerned it is an active case, and release of evidence such as the 911 tapes will prejudice its case.

You cannot have it both ways, either there was no crime, and JB and MP are both innocent of any wrong or, there was a crime, and logically MP and likely JB are POI's.

You decide.
 
Okay, let us assume that Joseph Brewer and Michael Pak had no motive to harm Shannan Gilbert. In fact they were trying to help and be of aid to her. Despite their best efforts, she ran into the marsh and died of exposure. No crime no foul. case closed.

Except for some reason the SCPD has not closed the case, and for years has fought to supress publication of evidence, because as far as the SCPD is concerned it is an active case, and release of evidence such as the 911 tapes will prejudice its case.

You cannot have it both ways, either there was no crime, and JB and MP are both innocent of any wrong or, there was a crime, and logically MP and likely JB are POI's.

You decide.

How come CPH didn't make your list ? ;)
 
How come CPH didn't make your list ? ;)
I was just focusing on the immediate events that took place in JB's house to SG's final disappearance that night. We have direct evidence of the interaction between SG, MP and JB. I have no doubt that CPH was involved, but I am not sure there is direct evidence of that fact that has been verified.
If CPH has involvement, likely both JB and MP would be aware of CPH's involvement, and that likely would come out in discovery proceedings prior to any legal proceedings.
 
Tonight (Saturday) at 8:00 on Lifetime:

The Long Island Serial Killer: A Mother’s Hunt for Justice | Lifetime (mylifetime.com)

The Long Island Serial Killer: A Mother’s Hunt for Justice tells the story of Mari Gilbert’s search for the truth behind what happened to her daughter Shannan, a sometime escort who disappeared after a ‘date’ on Long Island. After Shannan (Katharine Isabelle, Hannibal) fails to come home, her mother Mari (Kim Delaney) knows something is terribly wrong. Pleading to police to take her concerns seriously, she keeps pushing the police for answers...
 
Tonight (Saturday) at 8:00 on Lifetime:

The Long Island Serial Killer: A Mother’s Hunt for Justice | Lifetime (mylifetime.com)

The Long Island Serial Killer: A Mother’s Hunt for Justice tells the story of Mari Gilbert’s search for the truth behind what happened to her daughter Shannan, a sometime escort who disappeared after a ‘date’ on Long Island. After Shannan (Katharine Isabelle, Hannibal) fails to come home, her mother Mari (Kim Delaney) knows something is terribly wrong. Pleading to police to take her concerns seriously, she keeps pushing the police for answers...


As of February 20, 2021 any movie that comes out about the Gilbert story that does not include December 13, 2012, Burke's snuff films and the child *advertiser censored* and the Feds taking down the 3 sickest perverts in Suffolk County only has a non-realistic half baked version of events which is why I have said yes to my movie which is about un-covering the cover-up of Shannan's assassination.

Get ready folks, it will not only be original but will include secrets exposed. Im so done with the lying liars. Shannan's truth will
be revealed. I have no doubt people will suicide themselves. Pak told
me 2 separate nights he was going to kill himself. I was working with
the SDNY to prosecute him and Diaz for trafficking (exploiting)
Shannan. SDNY told me to have NYPD make wellness check on him
and I did.

Ray told Spota I had the Feds on Shannan's case and repeatedly asked me if we [SDNY] were going to prosecute Hackett (HINT HINT) and Spota shut down the SDNY. I have been on
Shannan's case 10 years, with both of her
attorneys. Her first attorney was Robin Sax.
I am stoked.
 
i have recently started to familiarize myself with the tragic fate of ms. sarah gilbert. my heart breaks for her, the terror she felt, and her late mother who never found the answers that she fought so hard for. i don’t know enough yet to build a solid opinion, but parsing through the posts of all my fellow sleuths has been eye-opening!

i just want to share one thing that has just bothered me since i first read it… The following is an excerpt taken from “The Long Island Serial Killer” (Feb 21, 2012) by: Eyes for Lies -

MP "says he tries to test her by asking her if she’s seen the movieFear and Loathing in Las Vegas…. (MP) continues, 'And then like I heard a 911 operator…uh…a…a lady on her phone…and that’s when I realized…oh…she’s on the phone with 911.’”

I think many have agreed that this “test” was certainly odd, if - in fact - it was a “test”. I’m doubtful about that - it makes no sense. What seemed more likely to me, when i first read that - is that is a cover for what was really said, and possibly captured with 911, before he realized SG had them on them on the phone. By his own “recollection” - it is right AFTER this “test” that he THEN “realized…oh…she’s on the phone with 911.”

To see if my suspicion made sense, I had to look up the movie Fear & Loathing in LV - as i was not at all familiar with it (and even so, was suspicious of this odd detail from MP!). I wondered if there was a reason that either this movie, or perhaps lines from the movie if uttered, would be something that would cause panic to SG. It didn’t take long to find a ton of references to crazy, tripping drugging, and this line from the script that stood out to me: “You *advertiser censored*… I’ll have you chopped into hamburger” (among many, many others) .

Inventing this “test” just seems like a way to explain what may have been heard by the operator. Just my opinion, i wonder if others have had similar thoughts… (and i apologize in advance if this has already been addressed - as i have not made it through all the earlier pages!).


That is interesting theory. My theory has always been that it was really a coded conversation between the two of them. That question really meant something else, like, "Are you OK or about to be chopped into a hamburger?" Or, perhaps it indicated that JB's meter had run out...or JB was still paid up...I didn't know, but I felt it was a code.

Then, when Pak felt "set up," I felt the code question did NOT mean, "Are you tripping/paranoid/in distress?" because the answer, "Yes," would more likely illicit a complaint about being put upon rather than a complaint about being set up.

However, I like the consideration that the utterance was for the 911 operator. In fact, maybe the reference to a film that references freaking out on drugs was to make that suggestion to the 911 operator.
 
Yes its hard to say what happened after everyone left (or didn't). Also, who knows who might of shown up later on? Right?
Somehow, I think if Pak caught her, Gus would have seen this and would have told the police that a man picked up the girl, and they left; he has no more information. He admitted to being less forthcoming about his neighbor, and Pak and Shannan were not his neighbors.

BUT...if the theory of Shannan dying or being near death in Pak's car is true, maybe he brought her dead or dying body right back to Dr. Hack.
 
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