Deceased/Not Found MD - Sarah, 3, & Jacob Hoggle, 2, Clarksburg, 9 Sept 2014 *Arrest, incompetent* #2

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Montgomery County police are searching for a missing 27-year-old woman and her two young children.
Catherine Hoggle's 2-year-old son, Jacob Hoggle, was last seen at his grandmother's home Sunday afternoon while her 3-year-old daughter, Sarah Hoggle, was last seen Monday morning at their home in the 12200 block of Elm Forest Court in Clarksburg.
Police say Catherine has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.
Catherine's common-law husband, Troy Turner, called police at 8 p.m. Monday to report that Catherine and two of their three children were missing. Turner told police that while he was at work Sunday afternoon, Catherine's father drove the family to Catherine's mother's home in Gaithersburg. Catherine then borrowed her father's car, a gray 2007 Nissan Rogue, and told her parents she was taking Jacob to get pizza.
When she returned three hours later, she did not have any food or her son with her. Catherine told her parents she dropped Jacob off at a playmate's house and went back to her own home with Sarah.
Police determined Monday night that Jacob had never been at a friend's home. Detectives are still working to determine where Catherine's other son was at this time.
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Catherine stands 5 feet 6 inches tall and weighs 160 pounds. She has brown eyes and black hair. She was last seen wearing blue jeans and a black tank top.
Sarah is a biracial female, stands 3 feet 6 inches tall and weighs 40 pounds. She has brown eyes and brown hair. Her brother, Jacob, is also biracial, stands 3 feet tall and weighs 25 pounds. He has brown eyes and a blond afro.
Investigators believe the children may be with a friend or someone known to Catherine who does not know the police are looking for them.
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Missing Maryland Mom Charged With Child Neglect; Search for Children Continues

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Thinking of Sarah and Jacob as we approach the anniversary date of their last being seen. After all the legal twists and turns, what happened at the MS Appeals Court, is Catherine to be held indefinitely, are the murder counts to stand, anything further about her possibility of being restored to sanity? I keep thinking of the grandparents- the day she left with each child, wasn't there cause for concern she shouldn't have even been alone with them, given her mental history? I realize hindsight is 20/20 but it seems they were to have supervised her with the children, or am I mixing this up with another case?

Please update case details, any legal info you may know.
 
sammyed said:
wasn't there cause for concern she shouldn't have even been alone with them, given her mental history?
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So I guess I'll go ahead and answer this - the short answer would be YES. The family absolutely were concerned, and were all working together to help Catherine supervise the children while she was getting back on her feet after being involuntarily committed; at the time the kids "disappeared," she was going to a weekly outpatient therapy program and showing some promising signs of improvement/rehabilitation from her paranoid schizophrenia (some news sources say she'd been diagnosed with "schizoaffective disorder") - however, according to some, she was not complying with taking her meds regularly.

The kids' father, Troy Turner, believed that the day before Jacob disappeared, they had the "best day as a family that we'd had in a long time." Troy, Catherine, Sarah and Jacob had gone to their oldest child's (whose name I won't say because the family wishes for his name to be kept out of the media) soccer match the day before, and Catherine seemed like she was doing well. Troy and Catherine were no longer in a romantic relationship with each other by this time, but they were all living under the same roof with the three kids while Catherine got better - it is somewhat noteworthy that neither her mom or dad wanted her moving in with either of them. Do with that info what you will. Catherine was, at this time, considered a "vulnerable adult" and an indigent by the State of Maryland. I've voiced my opinion before on this thread about how I think Troy shouldn't have been put in this position, and how there should have been more/better services and resources available to Catherine to prevent a situation like this.

Basically, the common consensus here seems to be that her parents messed up by allowing Catherine, whose driver's license was suspended, to leave in her father's car with Jacob in tow "to go get pizza." Her mother found out about this later on, and apparently neglected to tell Troy about it until the following day. What upsets many people about this case is that no one (read: the Hoggles) actually thought to question the hours-long pizza run, followed by the dubious "sleepover" at the home of one of Jacob's friends. Clearly, Catherine's "progress" was false. Mental illness, especially psychosis, isn't something where you can say "all's good!" after a few good days or weeks. The person needs to demonstrate consistent, responsible behavior, stay on their meds, and reach out for help when they need it. Allowing her to be alone somewhere with Jacob that day was a premature and deadly decision on the part of Randy Hoggle. I am not trying to defame or demean this man, as I believe in the concept of "innocent until proven guilty," but he exhibited a grave lapse in judgment by allowing his treatment-noncompliant, unlicensed daughter to just take off like that with his grandson.
 
I understand there are very specific mental illnesses at play here, but I cannot understand why she won’t say where her kids are! That seems calculated too me which would need clear, yet evil, thought. I know people can block out memories of tragic events, but I just don’t believe she doesn’t know. While there was a lot more that could have been done to prevent this, I only blane one person.
Moo
 
SurrealisticSlumbers said:
So I guess I'll go ahead and answer this - the short answer would be YES. The family absolutely were concerned, and were all working together to help Catherine supervise the children while she was getting back on her feet after being involuntarily committed; at the time the kids "disappeared," she was going to a weekly outpatient therapy program and showing some promising signs of improvement/rehabilitation from her paranoid schizophrenia (some news sources say she'd been diagnosed with "schizoaffective disorder") - however, according to some, she was not complying with taking her meds regularly.

The kids' father, Troy Turner, believed that the day before Jacob disappeared, they had the "best day as a family that we'd had in a long time." Troy, Catherine, Sarah and Jacob had gone to their oldest child's (whose name I won't say because the family wishes for his name to be kept out of the media) soccer match the day before, and Catherine seemed like she was doing well. Troy and Catherine were no longer in a romantic relationship with each other by this time, but they were all living under the same roof with the three kids while Catherine got better - it is somewhat noteworthy that neither her mom or dad wanted her moving in with either of them. Do with that info what you will. Catherine was, at this time, considered a "vulnerable adult" and an indigent by the State of Maryland. I've voiced my opinion before on this thread about how I think Troy shouldn't have been put in this position, and how there should have been more/better services and resources available to Catherine to prevent a situation like this.

Basically, the common consensus here seems to be that her parents messed up by allowing Catherine, whose driver's license was suspended, to leave in her father's car with Jacob in tow "to go get pizza." Her mother found out about this later on, and apparently neglected to tell Troy about it until the following day. What upsets many people about this case is that no one (read: the Hoggles) actually thought to question the hours-long pizza run, followed by the dubious "sleepover" at the home of one of Jacob's friends. Clearly, Catherine's "progress" was false. Mental illness, especially psychosis, isn't something where you can say "all's good!" after a few good days or weeks. The person needs to demonstrate consistent, responsible behavior, stay on their meds, and reach out for help when they need it. Allowing her to be alone somewhere with Jacob that day was a premature and deadly decision on the part of Randy Hoggle. I am not trying to defame or demean this man, as I believe in the concept of "innocent until proven guilty," but he exhibited a grave lapse in judgment by allowing his treatment-noncompliant, unlicensed daughter to just take off like that with his grandson.
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Thank you for what is very likely a re-clarification of events of that time. You are correct that it was very short-sighted (neglectful actually) to have allowed Catherine that much freedom, with those young children, in that period of time. I'm wondering what LEs primary theories are about what she did: 1) murder, 2) giving away of them would seem to top the list. Hiding the bodies via bodies of water or landfills would be most likely successful all this time I would think. I'm choosing to be hopeful they're alive somewhere, but it's so unlikely, as is that mom even recalls what happened after all this time.

I read that she is of high intellect, but oh how little this really matters in the end. I hurt for their father and older brother, such an awful crime and trauma for them. She should never be free.
 
I am personally dealing with someone that may have schizoaffective disorder. We are awaiting an actual diagnosis. I will tell you he doesn't remember the things he has done. He doesn't connect the dots like a normal person would. He doesn't think that things he is doing is abnormal and doesn't realize his thinking is completely abnormal. He is not currently medicated because he is an adult and it has been HE!! trying to get him diagnosed. I wonder if she even honestly knows what she did and/or where they are. The doctors have told me that medication may or may not help him.
 
cocomod said:
I am personally dealing with someone that may have schizoaffective disorder. We are awaiting an actual diagnosis. I will tell you he doesn't remember the things he has done. He doesn't connect the dots like a normal person would. He doesn't think that things he is doing is abnormal and doesn't realize his thinking is completely abnormal. He is not currently medicated because he is an adult and it has been HE!! trying to get him diagnosed. I wonder if she even honestly knows what she did and/or where they are. The doctors have told me that medication may or may not help him.
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At the time it all happened, I could believe that she was not in her right mind. She took off at a Chic Fila drive thru and then went and hid in an office building and was finally caught at an apartment building and the videos of her show she was devolving. 5 years later, she knows what she did. IMO. TT and the family have come out in the press and stated as such. At one point, she was found competent. TT has been very vocal about all of this. So has her mom. But she is also medicated now too. I live in the area.

Mental health disorders without treatment are devastating to the person and to those around them. No different than if a person had a physical disorder with no treatment. So hard to stand by and watch. And the trial and error with medicines to figure out which one is the right fit or which dose of the right one is the right fit is not a fun path to travel. I feel your pain.
 
@ericasf - Thank you for sharing the link to that. You mention being a local; did you ever attend one of TT's candlelight vigils? Or talk to any of the family members of either TT or CH's family? Understand if that's too personal to ask.
At least the murder charges are sticking. However, doesn't that "clock" run out in a couple of years? Unless found competent to stand trial? She could be allowed to walk the streets then. There'd be nothing legally barring her from being released by that point.
@cocomod - Sounds like a really tough situation for all involved - medication can and does help, though. As long as the person is willing. There's certainly hope for the vast majority.
 
SurrealisticSlumbers said:
@ericasf - Thank you for sharing the link to that. You mention being a local; did you ever attend one of TT's candlelight vigils? Or talk to any of the family members of either TT or CH's family? Understand if that's too personal to ask.
At least the murder charges are sticking. However, doesn't that "clock" run out in a couple of years? Unless found competent to stand trial? She could be allowed to walk the streets then. There'd be nothing legally barring her from being released by that point.
@cocomod - Sounds like a really tough situation for all involved - medication can and does help, though. As long as the person is willing. There's certainly hope for the vast majority.
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Yes, I was friends with TT at the end of high school, beginning of college and still keep in touch. Honestly, the entire story is in the media. It really took over the area here especially since he was from here and had roots here. I'll look at the media links that are here and see if I can add any others.

What it looks like is that as of right now, she'll be held until Dec '22 and then they can find her incompetent to stand trial and no chance of recovering in the foreseeable future and as long as they show that she is dangerous, they can commit her to a state facility. The state CAN recharge her too if the psychiatrist shows a chance of bringing her to a competent state. The key word there in it all is if she is deemed dangerous. I don't know what the court's interpretation would be if she is found incompetent but not dangerous. In that appeals court opinion, I did see that there was supposed to be an evidentiary hearing on her long term competency to address her appeal on the statute of limitations complaint because she was first charged in 2014 on misdemeanor and once they started getting close to the 3 year statute there, they dropped those charges and upped the charges to 2 counts of 1st degree murder. We were all holding our breath that they would see that the time restarted with the new felony charges, and it did. So, if she is continued to be found incompetent, it has to be with the finding that she is a danger to herself or others. Otherwise, it heads to a gray area. They can charge her again with the charges and she can be recommitted and do the whole thing all over again, if the state decides to go down that route. That's when we get loud here, if it would come down to it.
 
People with severe mental illness, generally tend to get worse as they age. She could be charged with murder at any time as there is no statute of limitations on the charges. But do I personally believe her mental status will improve over the next 5-10 years? No. JMO
 
SurrealisticSlumbers said:
it is somewhat noteworthy that neither her mom or dad wanted her moving in with either of them. Do with that info what you will. Catherine was, at this time, considered a "vulnerable adult" and an indigent by the State of Maryland. I've voiced my opinion before on this thread about how I think Troy shouldn't have been put in this position, and how there should have been more/better services and resources available to Catherine to prevent a situation like this.
Click to expand...
The father lived with Troy/Catherine.
 
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