UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

[Bakers]

Lucy Letby - accused baby killer This is a link from a couple of years ago from someone who actually works at that hospital. It's a few posts down by "Supernurse". So, another apparently first-hand account by someone who is saying the same as everyone else - that no one believes she's guilty of anything at all.

It really does make you wonder what on Earth the police and CPS think they have on her.

Once you are arrested on suspicion of multiple murders you are only allowed to be bailed if the police have no evdenice none what so ever zero so what evidence has changed to charged. What we do know is the hospital management were allowing babies to be born under 32 weeks than caring for them in there neonatal care unit.the vety neonatal unit that was closed immediately on the orders of the quality of care review report the hospital had done to find the reason for spike in death rate.due to it not meeting the standed of high level care these babies require.all the neonatal babies there where sent out to other neonatal care hospitals that do have the higher graded level of care staff that is required to keep these babies alive.also suspended 3 intensive care cots. A month after 1 arrest the chief executive of the hospital resigned.best option for him a this man should of been sacked immediately.so we now have a new chief executive of the hospital also a new head of cheshire police. Now is that a great start for both,the hospital takes no blame for these babies because the new head of cheshire police has charged a serial killer nurse . Oh this hospital also took in neonatal babies from other hospitals also during this time when not only where they massively under staffed it didn't have the standed of graded staff required to care for such complex babies

 

[Marantz4250b]

Once you are arrested on suspicion of multiple murders you are only allowed to be bailed if the police have no evdenice none what so ever zero so what evidence has changed to charged. What we do know is the hospital management were allowing babies to be born under 32 weeks than caring for them in there neonatal care unit.the vety neonatal unit that was closed immediately on the orders of the quality of care review report the hospital had done to find the reason for spike in death rate.due to it not meeting the standed of high level care these babies require.all the neonatal babies there where sent out to other neonatal care hospitals that do have the higher graded level of care staff that is required to keep these babies alive.also suspended 3 intensive care cots. A month after 1 arrest the chief executive of the hospital resigned.best option for him a this man should of been sacked immediately.so we now have a new chief executive of the hospital also a new head of cheshire police. Now is that a great start for both,the hospital takes no blame for these babies because the new head of cheshire police has charged a serial killer nurse . Oh this hospital also took in neonatal babies from other hospitals also during this time when not only where they massively under staffed it didn't have the standed of graded staff required to care for such complex babies

The highlighted sentence is just completely incorrect, I'm afraid. That is not how it works. The police are under no duty to keep you incarcerated based upon on the slightest suspicion that you might have done something bad. It's the other way around - they have to show a court that they have enough evidence to keep you if they want to hold you for more than twenty four hours, or that it is essential they they keep you in order to gather or preserve evidence. In any event the first twenty four hours can only be extended so far (up to 72 hours in 12 hour increments, I think) before they must charge or release.

How does a hospital "allow" babies to be born before a certain term, btw?

I agree that the hospital was a shambles, especially that department. The notion, though, that the hospital cannot now shoulder any of the blame because the guy in charge has left, regardless of the outcome of LL's case, is ridiculous, quite frankly. Of course it can and the parents already have lawyers ready to pounce.

 

[Bakers]

The highlighted sentence is just completely incorrect, I'm afraid. That is not how it works. The police are under no duty to keep you incarcerated based upon on the slightest suspicion that you might have done something bad. It's the other way around - they have to show a court that they have enough evidence to keep you if they want to hold you for more than twenty four hours, or that it is essential they they keep you in order to gather or preserve evidence. In any event the first twenty four hours can only be extended so far (up to 72 hours in 12 hour increments, I think) before they must charge or release.

How does a hospital "allow" babies to be born before a certain term, btw?

I agree that the hospital was a shambles, especially that department. The notion, though, that the hospital cannot now shoulder any of the blame because the guy in charge has left, regardless of the outcome of LL's case, is ridiculous, quite frankly. Of course it can and the parents already have lawyers ready to pounce.

The highlighted sentence is just completely incorrect, I'm afraid. That is not how it works. The police are under no duty to keep you incarcerated based upon on the slightest suspicion that you might have done something bad. It's the other way around - they have to show a court that they have enough evidence to keep you if they want to hold you for more than twenty four hours, or that it is essential they they keep you in order to gather or preserve evidence. In any event the first twenty four hours can only be extended so far (up to 72 hours in 12 hour increments, I think) before they must charge or release.

How does a hospital "allow" babies to be born before a certain term, btw?

I agree that the hospital was a shambles, especially that department. The notion, though, that the hospital cannot now shoulder any of the blame because the guy in charge has left, regardless of the outcome of LL's case, is ridiculous, quite frankly. Of course it can and the parents already have lawyers ready to pounce.

 

[Bakers]

twins, illness.transporting babies into the neonatal ward

 

[Marantz4250b]

twins, illness.transporting babies into the neonatal ward

I have no idea what you are saying here. Sorry.

 

[Buttonspoons]

Don’t know if this has been mentioned but I had a google of my thinking and perhaps it’s a possibility?
Benzyl alcohol, studies have found its fatal to neonatals. It’s used as antiseptic amongst other things - but it’s used in soloutions and one of those I found online said it can be used to flush catheters.

I don’t know if something new or a different brand of a medicine etc could potentially be a reason for unexplained collapses. Could also explain why the twins died a day apart, perhaps they were both receiving the same medicstion/fluids etc.

Another one to flip the coin is Pavulon or Pancuronium which is used as a muscle relaxant, is it possible they overdosed on this? Wether intentional or accidental? It’s used for intubating for ventilators and what not, I read a bit about this as it’s been used to murder people previously - skin hunters springs to mind.


It can cause gasping syndrome in neonatals but also contains Benzyl alcohol.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

The highlighted sentence is just completely incorrect, I'm afraid. That is not how it works. The police are under no duty to keep you incarcerated based upon on the slightest suspicion that you might have done something bad. It's the other way around - they have to show a court that they have enough evidence to keep you if they want to hold you for more than twenty four hours, or that it is essential they they keep you in order to gather or preserve evidence. In any event the first twenty four hours can only be extended so far (up to 72 hours in 12 hour increments, I think) before they must charge or release.

How does a hospital "allow" babies to be born before a certain term, btw?

I agree that the hospital was a shambles, especially that department. The notion, though, that the hospital cannot now shoulder any of the blame because the guy in charge has left, regardless of the outcome of LL's case, is ridiculous, quite frankly. Of course it can and the parents already have lawyers ready to pounce.

There appears to be some confusion regarding the police investigation/custody procedures, generally. Allow me to clarify.

When a criminal offence has been committed or is suspected to have been committed then anyone involved, suspected of involvement or attempted involvement in the commission of the offence can be arrested by a constable, if there are reasonable grounds to believe arrest is necessary for 'prompt and effective investigation of the offence'.

Initial lawful detention is for up to 24 hours, although this has to be reviewed by an independent inspector at specific times during the detention period.

Further detention, up to 36 hours, can be authorised by a superintendent, but only if it can be justified.

Beyond that, further extensions are made by application to a Magistrate and once again it will need to be justified. This could potentially mean a total detention period of up to 96 hours, by which time the suspect must be either charged of released. N.B. Terrorist Act offences have longer maximum detention periods.

It is important to note that the suspect may only held for a short period and interviewed under caution to be asked to give their account of the allegations for which they have been arrested.

The arrest may also provide various powers of search of premises, vehicles etc without having to apply for a search warrant. This is to secure further evidence. The arrest also provides police with the power to take DNA and fingerprints.

The suspect may be released within the detention window on police bail or 'under police investigation', which are different procedures. Once the police have further evidence then the suspect may be re-arrested to be further interviewed or there may be no further action. The custody sergeant will only ever authorise detention if it is lawful.

A suspect HAS to be charged once there is sufficient evidence for the charge. After this they cannot be interviewed further regarding that specific offence. A voluntary interview following charge at the request of the defendant is rare but can happen.

It is essential to remember that this is a very complex and unusual investigation and that prior to charge LL was under investigation. It takes time to gather and collate the evidence to enable the CPS to make charging decisions on all the alleged offences.

 

[Eloise]

Police dig up back garden at home of neonatal nurse Lucy Letby | Daily Mail Online These pictures give a fuller fleshed out vision of Lucy as a person, imo. Those couple of photos of Lucy in scrubs that are always shared make her seem like some kind of nursing nerd who went home after every shift to a cup of tea and an early lights out. Ironically I find the photos of her having what is an entirely normal social life for a 20something nurse more humanising than the image of her as a modern-day Florence Nightingale.

I don't think we'll really know what the heck is up with this case until the trial starts. It's definitely a head scratcher and one I'm totally on the fence about, just personally.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Police dig up back garden at home of neonatal nurse Lucy Letby | Daily Mail Online These pictures give a fuller fleshed out vision of Lucy as a person, imo. Those couple of photos of Lucy in scrubs that are always shared make her seem like some kind of nursing nerd who went home after every shift to a cup of tea and an early lights out. Ironically I find the photos of her having what is an entirely normal social life for a 20something nurse more humanising than the image of her as a modern-day Florence Nightingale.

I don't think we'll really know what the heck is up with this case until the trial starts. It's definitely a head scratcher and one I'm totally on the fence about, just personally.

I've always said that the photos of her go a very long way to demonstrating just how "normal" she clearly is. She's not vain or self-centred and, significantly, all those pictures are taken by other people - friends - rather than herself. It's very rare (as far as I can tell) for mass murderers and serial killers to have a wide circle of friends. They tend to be loners or people who have transient, short lasting relationships with others. In everything I see out there about her LL seems to be the very opposite of every mass-killer I've ever read about.

 

[Eloise]

I've always said that the photos of her go a very long way to demonstrating just how "normal" she clearly is. She's not vain or self-centred and, significantly, all those pictures are taken by other people - friends - rather than herself. It's very rare (as far as I can tell) for mass murderers and serial killers to have a wide circle of friends. They tend to be loners or people who have transient, short lasting relationships with others. In everything I see out there about her LL seems to be the very opposite of every mass-killer I've ever read about.

Right. I do agree, and she doesn't really seem at all like any of the other cases where a nurse has been killing patients for attention/glory etc. They all seem to be loners and weirdos and have people willing to call them that. I haven't heard anything like that about LL.

It makes it all the more interesting (for want of a better word. Intriguing, maybe, and also potentially disturbing) why she's arrested and charged for these heinous acts. If the prosecution can't prove their case - and they must believe they have a solid one or they wouldn't be going through this - then what really happened? We already know the hospital and the NHS generally have big problems. I feel like it would be a huge travesty if she's a scapegoat for that. Not just for her personally, but for everyone who relies on that health system. Because they'll continue to get away with poor healthcare and poor patient experience if they just throw individual nurses under the bus for their problems.

 

[Kemug]

Yes, intriguing and disturbing, Eloise. Very disturbing. As you say, the law must have a pretty solid case for this all to be happening. And surely LE and the NHS can't both be a shambles? I'm sorry to say that I am beginning to think that maybe she did do it - just maybe - in which case it's an even bigger tragedy.

 

[Eloise]

Yes, intriguing and disturbing, Eloise. Very disturbing. As you say, the law must have a pretty solid case for this all to be happening. And surely LE and the NHS can't both be a shambles? I'm sorry to say that I am beginning to think that maybe she did do it - just maybe - in which case it's an even bigger tragedy.

It is really a massively intriguing and probably will be very influential case in 2021 I think. One to watch, for sure. We either have a HUGE coverup with an innocent scapegoat or we have one of the most unsuspectingly evil serial murderers ever.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Whilst fishing around for more information the other day I came across this site;

https://lucyletby.com/

It's clearly nothing to do directly with her, her defence team or family and seems a bit strange. From the use of the word "attorney" it sounds like whomever is running it is American.

 

[passingby]

There is a 'contact domain holder' facility at the domain host here:

WHOIS search results

Whether use of such facility would garner any response I don't know.

The page itself does invite email to info@[the domain name in question].com

The headquarters for the National Press Photographers Association, referenced via it's logo at the base of the page, is at the Henry W. Grady College of Journalism and Mass Communication at the University of Georgia.

Registrant Organization: Reliance Cyber Security
Registrant State/Province: Michigan
Registrant Country: US

My gut feeling leads me toward thinking the domain holder hopes for a flood of link traffic once the case starts - whereupon that traffic, at it's height, could be redirected for profit. I could be entirely wrong.

 

[Eloise]

Sounds like someone trying to capitalise on potentially huge numbers of clicks once the trial starts. The disclaimer says it's neither endorsed nor approved by Lucy.

 

[sleepyhead25]

I am really leaning towards it being a stitch up.

None of it makes any sense. And it does feel like the NHS have put pressure on the authorities to charge her and ‘find’ / and even worse potentially ‘create’ some kind of evidence.

I could understand her colleagues having to keep quiet and not being allowed to make any comment - but the complete silence And not hearing really much positive or negative from everyone else is just odd and very eerie - if she had friends surely they would be shouting from the roof tops proclaiming her innocence unless they too have been silenced? Same with families that remember her caring for their children that aren’t connected to the trial. All seems very very fishy!

Wouldn't surprise me if we saw a suicide attempt before the trial.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Sounds like someone trying to capitalise on potentially huge numbers of clicks once the trial starts. The disclaimer says it's neither endorsed nor approved by Lucy.

How des that actually work though? I don't understand how you can monetise that.

 

[sleepyhead25]

Sorry if already posted but here are copy & pastes from fundraising in memory of one baby that sadly died

I dont want to post links as they name the child’s parents. I’ve cut out anything that makes them / the baby that passed too identifiable so it’s just sticking to the ‘facts’ as they saw it at the time.

I can’t begin to imagine what they are going through, not knowing if their baby was intentionally taken from them by an absolute psychopath or if they are also just part of a sick cover up to save face in the neonatal department of the said hospital.

Parents fundraiser story:

Our Story – In loving memory of ***

Our beautiful baby girl, ***, decided to make her appearance into this world on the *** at only ***. *** was born at *** at *** on *** morning and cared for by the brilliant neonatal medical team within *** until she was transferred to ***, Neonatal Unit at round *** that day.

*** only survived *** days. She peacefully fell asleep while being cradled in her daddy’s hand on the *** surround by overwhelming love for a perfect little girl that made us a family for the first time.

Through this terribly hard time, all the Consultants, Doctors, Midwives and Nurses that we were lucky enough to have look after us were incredible and second to none. The care that not only *** received but also us is indescribable. The job that these special and caring people do on a daily bases is truly amazing and provides babies and parents with hope and the reassurance that all that can be done is being done.

This is the one thing that as a couple we can hold onto and take comfort from as *** received the best possible care and treatment that is out there. No one gave up on her. All avenues were explored and treatments pushed to the limits to see if that little extra would help *** recover.

In the end, her little lungs just couldn’t cope any longer and we had to make the hardest decision of our lives and let our baby girl go peacefully while having our first hold and cuddle. We are so proud of our baby daughter and also of the NHS teams that we came into contact with as I believe we wouldn’t have got those *** precious days that enable us to create everlasting memories of our baby girl if it wasn’t for the dedication and commitment of these truly amazing people.

The commitment and compassion of the Neonatal Unit didn’t stop once *** had passed. They continued to care for her and us and again provided additional time for us and our families to spend with her in privacy.

During these three days we were able to spend as much time with *** as we liked as we were fortunate enough to have a room at Ronald McDonald House. Only a floor above ***. This charity provides an incredible facilitate for families that have babies in the neonatal unit, offering a bedroom with en suite, kitchen and dining areas along with laundry facilities. This charity allows parents to take care of themselves and most importantly takes away an additional worry of not being on hand when your baby needs you. You are only a phone call and lift ride away. During our stay we were able to talk to other parents that were also going through the same as us, our families were able to visit without feeling in the way as there was somewhere to retreat too.

I can’t stress enough how thankfully we are to the Neonatal Unit within *** and Ronald McDonald for their support. To try and show how much this meant to us and still does, *** Daddy is running the Chester half marathon along with friends to raise money for Ronald McDonald House and Ickles Pickles (charity that provide the incubators and ventilators to the neonatal units) so that parents like us and babies like *** continue to receive exceptional support and help throughout a really tough time in their lives.

Once again thank you so much to all the medical teams that helped *** and also to our families and friends that have supported ***. Every penny raised counts so please donate and show your support for these truly amazing charities.

Thank you to you all
***

Friends fundraiser story:

In *** two of my closest friends *** were blessed with a beautiful baby ***, ***. *** was born at the ***, she was premature born at *** and it soon became clear that little *** was in for a tough time, she was transferred to *** to receive the specialist care that she wasnt able to recieve at the *** and after a brave and hard fought ***, she very sadly fell asleep having her 1st cuddle with her daddy. It was an extremely difficult time for *** and their families. But *** is always close in our thoughts and our hearts and *** along with friends and family have raised over 8 thousand pounds for charities directly associated with *** short life.

After speaking to *** they both expressed how much it would of meant if little *** would of been able to stay in *** to allow more family to visit her while she was with us, and so we're raising money again this year to help support children born prematurely and their families.

Please if you can help us raise money to support the *** and the young children born there, any donation however big or small would be very much appreciated.

Thank you

***

In loving memory of ***

 

[sleepyhead25]

So whatever the method they think she’s used they are assuming it killed slowly.
As she was not there/and hadn’t been for quite a long period in the case of the child in the fundraiser above. What harm did she cause that child that was so irreversible? Was it the same method for every child?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Sounds like someone trying to capitalise on potentially huge numbers of clicks once the trial starts. The disclaimer says it's neither endorsed nor approved by Lucy.

How des that actually work though? I don't understand how you can monetise that.

I am really leaning towards it being a stitch up.

None of it makes any sense. And it does feel like the NHS have put pressure on the authorities to charge her and ‘find’ / and even worse potentially ‘create’ some kind of evidence.

I could understand her colleagues having to keep quiet and not being allowed to make any comment - but the complete silence And not hearing really much positive or negative from everyone else is just odd and very eerie - if she had friends surely they would be shouting from the roof tops proclaiming her innocence unless they too have been silenced? Same with families that remember her caring for their children that aren’t connected to the trial. All seems very very fishy!

Wouldn't surprise me if we saw a suicide attempt before the trial.

I would say that "stitch up" in the traditional sense is a bit of a stretch as I don't believe that the British police actively go out of their way to fit-up entirely innocent people. I'd completely reject any suggestion that the police would "create" evidence. I don't buy them being leaned on to that degree by the NHS either. Remember it's the CPS who make a charging decisions in the end after reviewing the evidence. However, I can completely accept the theory that it may be likely that the police have been channelled into one particular direction and have ended up in the situation where "tunnel vision" is affecting their judgement and is unreasonably pointing them in down a specific road. The evidence will undoubtedly be extremely complicated and technical and I think it's possible for them to be led (by act or by omission) down one particular path by those who understand it better.

As to her friends and colleagues, the only things we've heard from them are positive and singing her praises. I haven't heard a single thing said about her which isn't entirely positive. There hasn't even been a passing comment which could be taken as painting her in terms which are remotely negative. The thing about her friends and colleagues making statements in direct support of her innocence I suppose is that it's an extremely emotive subject and they really have no more information than anyone else does. What if they all came out making unequivocal statements as to her innocence and she's convicted?

I've thought a lot about this of late - lockdown does that to a person - and I just don't think she's guilty. There is nothing, that I can see, that she has in common with any other serial murderer; she doesn't come from a broken home and hasn't had a bad or abusive upbringing (as far as we know), she is from a reasonably affluent middle-class area, she doesn't appear vain or obsessed with herself, she hasn't had substance abuse problems (that we know of), she had a good idea of what she wanted to do with her life from an early age and set out to achieve that and appears to have an ordered and rational thinking process, she is hard working and was apparently an excellent student and from everything we know is extremely well thought of by her colleagues and friends and appears to have a close circle of the latter. Which other serial murderers, especially baby murderers, have similar backgrounds? I can't think of a single one. People have compared her to Beverly Allitt but she's absolutely nothing like her at all. I think that the only reason for the comparison is that people have no other point of reference for a nurse who kills babies as it's so rare so they blindly associate the two when, in reality, there is absolutely nothing in common between them. Allitt had very serious mental health issues which she had had for years and was known to have a propensity for violence and was abusive and attention seeking. I see none of that in Lucy Letby.

If she did this then she is probably the most unusual and remarkable serial killer in history. I simply don't think she did though. I suspect that the evidence we will see presented by the prosecution will be highly circumstantial and speculative in nature. I very much doubt that they have suddenly uncovered some terribly damning "smoking gun" type evidence that proves she did it (say, a video of her injecting something she shouldn't), especially in relation to eighteen charges, which is extremely difficult for the defence to refute.

I'd agree with you in relation to self-harm. I believe that that was what they were talking about when saying that she should be remanded for her own protection. The internet of experts seem to have assumed that she'd be in danger from victims families but that is extremely rare and I doubt anything would be done against someone who would likely be under intense press and police scrutiny. You'd never get away with it. Her defence QC mentioned that she was "..extremely anxious.." about the situation she was in and that she wanted "...a resolution to the matter as soon as possible..". Most of the bail hearing was heard away from the press so we don't know the specifics but reading between the lines of those statements I think that they were saying that she was distressed to the point that she would be a danger to herself if let out. I can entirely understand that, I'd probably be the same in her position, especially if I knew I hadn't done it.

Like I say, I genuinely don't think she's guilty. If she's convicted I hope it's on the back of some very convincing evidence but I have my doubts after such a long time.