OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #59

Status
Not open for further replies.
It would be interesting to know if the Wagners were/are involved in the activities of any Ohio militia groups, like Oathkeepers. While its unlikely other members of that group would have been involved in the murders, the Wagners participation in those groups could explain the substantial stock of weapons, ammo, and other equipment used in the murders. Their affiliation with a white supremacy group could have given them info and experience in stalking and surveilling their murder victims. Many of these groups practice.

For example, the Michigan militia men who made plans to kidnap the governor of Michigan met and practiced in Ohio.

Feds say they thwarted militia plot to kidnap Whitmer



Plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Whitmer was hatched in Ohio, Feds say

If the Wagner family was involved with a white supremacy/militia group, it would explain more about their character, beliefs, experience with weapons and their ability to plan and carry out such a heinous crime.

Worth looking into.

I just made a post that starts going down that path. Jones and Lucy were both key political players in that area of New York before they disappeared from what little I have found so far. There was a case taken to the Supreme Court by the Board of Electors but given it is from the 90’s there are no images or data online.
I am trying to understand if they were in OH then went to NY (became involved in politics) and then came back to OH while on the run (and living at Flying W for at least some time) OR if he was originally from NY.
I am also trying to see if there are other old articles on the guns he sold.

23 YEARS!!!!

At the same time, I hate to veer too far left from thread. I am going to touch base with @Sillybilly for guidance.
 
Last edited:
I just made a post that starts going down that path. Jones and Lucy were both key political players in that area of New York before they disappeared from what little I have found so far. There was a case taken to the Supreme Court but given it is from the 90’s there are no images or data online.
I am trying to understand if they were in OH then went to NY (became involved in politics) and then came back to OH while on the run (and living at Flying W for at least some time) OR if he was originally from NY.
I am also trying to see if there are other old articles on the guns he sold.

At the same time, I hate to veer too far left from thread. I am going to touch base with @Sillybilly for guidance.

As for those two, JMO, there's absolutely zero chance they were involved in committing the murders. Both appear to be elderly or near elderly. JMO, they sound like a couple of pathetic, near homeless grifters who worked for FW. LE has probably talked to them already, or tried to.
 
Last edited:
I hated to take another trail down politics after this last week, but there it was...

Jones has been involved in several legal disputes as chairman of the Cayuga County Conservative Party.

Also charged with harassment Tuesday night were two sergeants- at-arms Jones appointed before the meeting, Harold Leiger and Lucy Wilck.

Syracuse Post Standard Archives, Jun 20, 1996, p. 104

I think this is the same Jones. It's a very, very interesting read.

A Small-Town Official Was Ousted and Headed to Prison. Then He Vanished.
 
I think this is the same Jones. It's a very, very interesting read.

A Small-Town Official Was Ousted and Headed to Prison. Then He Vanished.

Which trailer were they living in on Fred Wagner's farm?

Investigators spoke to Mr. Jones and Ms. Wilck and did not find a connection to the killings, according to an Ohio law enforcement official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the case is still active. The Pike County prosecutor did not return several calls.

I wonder if they agreed to testify about anything they saw or heard at Flying W Farms before and after the murders. Did one of them overhear the meetings the Wags had where they discussed revenge and breaking out of jail?

Or maybe they planned to testify on behalf of Billy or Jake. Such sketchy people might have been willing to lie to provide some kind of alibi or something.

I wonder if they saw any of the Wags the night of the murders? Or saw them getting rid of evidence on FW's farm?

ETA: According to the NYT article, they didn't discover the man's identity until last month. Interesting. I wonder if someone called LE with a tip? How had they not known of him before, if he spent a lot of time hanging out at flea markets?
 
Last edited:
Which trailer were they living in on Fred Wagner's farm?



I wonder if they agreed to testify about anything they saw or heard at Flying W Farms before and after the murders. Did one of them overhear the meetings the Wags had where they discussed revenge and breaking out of jail?

Or maybe they planned to testify on behalf of Billy or Jake. Such sketchy people might have been willing to lie to provide some kind of alibi or something.

I wonder if they saw any of the Wags the night of the murders? Or saw them getting rid of evidence on FW's farm?

ETA: According to the NYT article, they didn't discover the man's identity until last month. Interesting. I wonder if someone called LE with a tip? How had they not known of him before, if he spent a lot of time hanging out at flea markets?

I don’t suspect HE would have given any info unless he did so under his false name. He had been on the run for 23 years and BOTH of them had been living under false identities.
Wouldn’t LE have verified his or her identity before DEC 2020?
I think he would have been arrested and sent back to NY if they knew his identity.
It seems they only found him because he was walking along the side of the road limping. After no identification LE looked into further to identify him.

If she did, was she still under her false identity? If LE had her real name, some internet searches and wanted bulletins from NY would seem to have yielded questions to her about Jones. They have been together many many years from what I have read so far. In a 1996 article it stated at that time she had been his girlfriend of at least 10 years.

Seems pretty risky for two people that want to stay unidentified by LE. More so for him.. maybe he played as a patient at Crystal Springs through it all.
 
As for those two, JMO, there's absolutely zero chance they were involved in committing the murders. Both appear to be elderly or near elderly. JMO, they sound like a couple of pathetic, near homeless grifters who worked for FW. LE has probably talked to them already, or tried to.

I agree on your perspective around committing the Murders. We have discussed for a couple years now the possibility of R's knowing something or possibly many things on the W's that may have also contributed to the outcome. I wonder if one thing that can be added to the list is one or more knew who "Jones" was.
 
I don’t suspect HE would have given any info unless he did so under his false name. He had been on the run for 23 years and BOTH of them had been living under false identities.
Wouldn’t LE have verified his or her identity before DEC 2020?
I think he would have been arrested and sent back to NY if they knew his identity.
It seems they only found him because he was walking along the side of the road limping. After no identification LE looked into further to identify him.

If she did, was she still under her false identity? If LE had her real name, some internet searches and wanted bulletins from NY would seem to have yielded questions to her about Jones. They have been together many many years from what I have read so far. In a 1996 article it stated at that time she had been his girlfriend of at least 10 years.

Seems pretty risky for two people that want to stay unidentified by LE. More so for him.. maybe he played as a patient at Crystal Springs through it all.

Good theories! She likely came to LE's attention when they were investigating FW, conducting the searches at Flying W, going through her business and personal records. That said, they probably didn't realize she was using a fake name, hiding her identity. Agree, he would have to be keeping a low profile to not come to LE's attention, especially during the murder investigation. JMO, he was at greatest risk of being discovered during the murder investigation.

The article says he got around town, went to swap meets and the flea market, even sold stuff there. But LE didn't notice him until they happened to come across him walking down the road (probably somewhere around Flying W Farms). Why would he be walking down those roads back there in the middle of December? Posing as a patient at the nursing home is a possibility. Why did FW keep him around? Just because he was the partner of Wilck?

I don't think we've heard the whole story yet.
 
Last edited:
Good theories! She likely came to LE's attention when they were investigating FW, conducting the searches at Flying W, going through her business and personal records. That said, they probably didn't realize she was using a fake name, hiding her identity. Agree, he would have to be keeping a low profile to not come to LE's attention, especially during the murder investigation. JMO, he was at greatest risk of being discovered during the murder investigation.

The article says he got around town, went to swap meets and the flea market, even sold stuff there. But LE didn't notice him until they happened to come across him walking down the road (probably somewhere around Flying W Farms). Why would he be walking down those roads back there in the middle of December? Posing as a patient at the nursing home is a possibility. Why did FW keep him around? Just because he was the partner of Wilck?

I think we've not heard the whole story yet.
I don't think we have either.
I am guessing they finger printed him at the hospital and that is how they got his identity. He had already done time and was out on bond so I guess his prints would have been on file.
Which makes me think LE had no reason to fingerprint him during the murder investigation. Being a patient is complete theory and speculation on my part, but it seems it would be a safe play. I doubt they fingerprinted all staying at the group home. Again just a guess..
I don't think it was a back road. I think it was near WalMart.
 
FYI for anyone who may recognize him or know anything, NY is still looking for any additional info. Contact info in the flyer attached.
 

Attachments

  • 9D51B56A-6ED2-4208-9DF0-EE1651668D7E.jpeg
    9D51B56A-6ED2-4208-9DF0-EE1651668D7E.jpeg
    146.9 KB · Views: 85
I don't think we have either.
I am guessing they finger printed him at the hospital and that is how they got his identity. He had already done time and was out on bond so I guess his prints would have been on file.
Which makes me think LE had no reason to fingerprint him during the murder investigation. Being a patient is complete theory and speculation on my part, but it seems it would be a safe play. I doubt they fingerprinted all staying at the group home. Again just a guess..
I don't think it was a back road. I think it was near WalMart.

Ok, yeah. It does sound like he's suffering from dementia. He either drove himself to Walmart or the GF did. Forgot where he was and wandered off. It's odd that he went on the lam, but it sounds like he had already spent time in jail for another offense.

His official misconduct conviction stemmed from his failure to pay two highway department workers in October 1996, claiming that paperwork had not been properly filled out by their boss, according to The Post-Standard archives.

After his first conviction, Cayuga County Court Judge Peter Corning suspended Jones’ pistol permit. But instead of turning over his permit and eight handguns to authorities, Jones sold them.

He was then convicted of criminal sale of a firearm, a felony punishable by up to a short state prison sentence. But while out on bail awaiting sentencing, Jones fled again.

To paraphrase a comment to the article, its a real American story, like something the Coen brothers would write. Will be interesting to see where the story goes.
 
FYI for anyone who may recognize him or know anything, NY is still looking for any additional info. Contact info in the flyer attached.

Interesting. Sounds like LE is trying to piece together his - WJ's - whereabouts over 20 years and who aided him. Sounds like they want to question his girlfriend LW because FW was asked where she is. FW doesn't know so that means LW quit working for her and moved off her property.

It's a crime to aid a fugitive so it wouldn't surprise me if LW left to avoid the US Marshals, who track people down. Just speculation.

I didn't see anything about WJ being arrested near Walmart but if he was then that makes sense considering he was arrested in Waverly and there is a Walmart in Waverly.

Same Walmart where Angela bought the shoes and was seen getting into the passenger side of her vehicle when she left. Humm....I wonder if BCI ever found out who was driving her with her "murder kit" shoes?

And they say they know nothing about the shoes....Sure...:rolleyes:
 
If a person is hiding in rural areas of Ohio from New York, it just could be a couple things why, on the run from the mob or was in the process of going into witness protection and ran from the LE and Mob, JMO
Does any of you Sluthers think that there could have been money laundering happening and Hanna Mae Rhodens knew what was going on at FWF, JMO
 
If a person is hiding in rural areas of Ohio from New York, it just could be a couple things why, on the run from the mob or was in the process of going into witness protection and ran from the LE and Mob, JMO
Does any of you Sluthers think that there could have been money laundering happening and Hanna Mae Rhodens knew what was going on at FWF, JMO

Possible. Still reading archives, but have not found that the books or financial records for Mentz NY were ever recovered. Articles suggest she may have left with the books late 1996/1997. (One article misspells her name)

Makes one wonder what was in those books. They have ran for 23 years. He wasn’t facing much of a sentence when he disappeared.
 

Attachments

  • 661DEEDE-A687-4F03-B170-47333ECE0DF4.jpeg
    661DEEDE-A687-4F03-B170-47333ECE0DF4.jpeg
    149.8 KB · Views: 37
  • BD18A997-8BD1-43CB-89EA-9784DD13B2D7.jpeg
    BD18A997-8BD1-43CB-89EA-9784DD13B2D7.jpeg
    163 KB · Views: 41
  • B3F72731-0661-4141-8541-C45E4A8A72BA.jpeg
    B3F72731-0661-4141-8541-C45E4A8A72BA.jpeg
    234.7 KB · Views: 36
  • 0CE305BD-67FD-46A9-B881-241A39C6CE59.jpeg
    0CE305BD-67FD-46A9-B881-241A39C6CE59.jpeg
    157.5 KB · Views: 29
Just to raise some eyes past the fact that Jones had been hanging out at flea markets. He may have aged over the years, but he was a well educated accountant with specialization in municipalities. He had worked in other towns as well.
 

Attachments

  • 5EA55C3B-EBD5-481F-A4B9-BCB22EF22F7A.jpeg
    5EA55C3B-EBD5-481F-A4B9-BCB22EF22F7A.jpeg
    111 KB · Views: 21
Last edited:
Possible. Still reading archives, but have not found that the books or financial records for Mentz NY were ever recovered. Articles suggest she may have left with the books late 1996/1997. (One article misspells her name)

Makes one wonder what was in those books. They have ran for 23 years. He wasn’t facing much of a sentence when he disappeared.
Taking the books with them makes me believe more may have been going on that hadn't yet been discovered. And upon turning those books in may have opened something more serious? IMO
 
I am so sorry, don't think I did this right! I never reply because afraid too!! I will try to go ahead with my response. I think this about Bill Jones and Lucy Wilcks from N. Y. Is interesting. I do not feel that they took part in the murders, but I am thinking they were aware. I think they had Lucy there doing their tax records and books, which have now disappeared, along with Lucy. And I like the theory that Bob (Bill) was in Fred's "nursing home" so he would have reason to be there too, but Lucy is the one Wag's wanted there. Don't know where she is now, many possibilities include in witness protection (maybe who heard the threats they made), maybe ran, maybe pushing up daisies. JMO.
 
Last edited:
2018 She was listed under the Eagan alias
https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Image...2.1284849980.1610565636-2040611208.1610565636
2019 She was listed as remaining in the capacity of Treasurer/Secretary but under Wilck
https://pdf.guidestar.org/PDF_Image...4.1284849980.1610565636-2040611208.1610565636
This is interesting information.

So in addition to a name change between 2018 and 2019, there was an additional resident added at Crystal Springs.

The 2018 listed four residents at Crystal Springs.
The 2019 listed five residents at Crystal Springs.

No idea who the additional resident was.
 
I am so sorry, don't think I did this right! I never reply because afraid too!! I will try to go ahead with my response. I think this about Bill Jones and Lucy Wilcks from N. Y. Is interesting. I do not feel that they took part in the murders, but I am thinking they were aware. I think they had Lucy there doing their tax records and books, which have now disappeared, along with Lucy. And I like the theory that Bob (Bill) was in Fred's "nursing home" so he would have reason to be there too, but Lucy is the one Wag's wanted there. Don't know where she is now, many possibilities include in witness protection (maybe who heard the threats they made), maybe ran, maybe pushing up daisies. JMO.
I wondered if she may be the female who overheard the conversation. Just a fleeting thought.
 
I am so sorry, don't think I did this right! I never reply because afraid too!! I will try to go ahead with my response. I think this about Bill Jones and Lucy Wilcks from N. Y. Is interesting. I do not feel that they took part in the murders, but I am thinking they were aware. I think they had Lucy there doing their tax records and books, which have now disappeared, along with Lucy. And I like the theory that Bob (Bill) was in Fred's "nursing home" so he would have reason to be there too, but Lucy is the one Wag's wanted there. Don't know where she is now, many possibilities include in witness protection (maybe who heard the threats they made), maybe ran, maybe pushing up daisies. JMO.

BBM

You said quote:

I never reply because afraid too!!

Honey, please never be afraid to express you opinions because all opinions welcomed and respected..!

Your opinion matters as much as someone who has been posting many years longer than you. @bunnylady YOUR OPINIONS MATTER..!..:)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
156
Guests online
1,209
Total visitors
1,365

Forum statistics

Threads
589,939
Messages
17,927,956
Members
228,008
Latest member
redeworker
Back
Top