Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #3

[MadTing]

Hello, I first found this forum because of the Esther Dingley disappearance, but this O&O case made me sign up.

Granted, my cultural background is different, but having read all the threads regarding this case and looked at several videos on YT, I still can't understand how so many seem so sure that the adoptive family are to blame.
Looking at the video I quoted, what I see are two very distressed individuals in a very hostile environment. And if I am not mistaken, is this not the only appearance they have made on camera?
Imagine you are not the very sociable type and suddenly you are thrust into the limelight because the literally worst has happened. You can barely handle yourself, but you must also be aware of how you present yourself, because maybe you are not sympathetic enough. And now you are asked to talk in front of cameras, and a bunch of chavs are heckling you.

I understand the theories that perhaps the kids were never there etc. But I can't understand how anyone can describe the adoptive parents as emtionless or whatnot. They seem very distressed and anxious to me.

Hi and welcome,

Have you see then neighbours surveillance footage from the evening they went missing that shows the adopted dad?

 

[Raynebowtaster]

I have developed a strong aversion to the word “rambunctious”.

Lmao, I just nicknamed my boss me rambunctious....... Grrrr he gets on my nerves

 

[nyvictoria]

Hello, I first found this forum because of the Esther Dingley disappearance, but this O&O case made me sign up.

Granted, my cultural background is different, but having read all the threads regarding this case and looked at several videos on YT, I still can't understand how so many seem so sure that the adoptive family are to blame.
Looking at the video I quoted, what I see are two very distressed individuals in a very hostile environment. And if I am not mistaken, is this not the only appearance they have made on camera?
Imagine you are not the very sociable type and suddenly you are thrust into the limelight because the literally worst has happened. You can barely handle yourself, but you must also be aware of how you present yourself, because maybe you are not sympathetic enough. And now you are asked to talk in front of cameras, and a bunch of chavs are heckling you.

I understand the theories that perhaps the kids were never there etc. But I can't understand how anyone can describe the adoptive parents as emtionless or whatnot. They seem very distressed and anxious to me.

Welcome and kudos to you for speaking your mind. Unfortunately, when you’ve been down this road so many times, you begin to focus on what’s different. What’s different about this one is the lack of any pleading to the public to help them get their boys back. If they’re understandably averse to making any more on camera appeals, there’s always the option of putting out a statement or teaming up with LE for a presser. In this case? Crickets.

 

[nannymo]

Hello, I first found this forum because of the Esther Dingley disappearance, but this O&O case made me sign up.

Granted, my cultural background is different, but having read all the threads regarding this case and looked at several videos on YT, I still can't understand how so many seem so sure that the adoptive family are to blame.
Looking at the video I quoted, what I see are two very distressed individuals in a very hostile environment. And if I am not mistaken, is this not the only appearance they have made on camera?
Imagine you are not the very sociable type and suddenly you are thrust into the limelight because the literally worst has happened. You can barely handle yourself, but you must also be aware of how you present yourself, because maybe you are not sympathetic enough. And now you are asked to talk in front of cameras, and a bunch of chavs are heckling you.

I understand the theories that perhaps the kids were never there etc. But I can't understand how anyone can describe the adoptive parents as emtionless or whatnot. They seem very distressed and anxious to me.

I ALWAYS want to believe the parents or the spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend left behind. But after following so many of these cases here on Websleuths, I will say there are several flags that come up to me from these parents.
1. There is almost no interaction or eye contact between the Mother and Father.
2. They are not holding hands, consoling each other or even looking at each other. In other words, they are not in this together.
3. The Father's body language is very protective of himself. (Go watch Chris Watts moves during his interview)
4. Mom is swaying back and forth. Doesn't say hardly anything. Watch her talk over him just before (5:15 mark) the rambunctious comment. Dad looks like to me he
has to take a deep breath and almost roll his eyes because she is talking.
I am very suspicious of the parents but I am still giving them the benefit of the doubt. I think they feel they have covered their bases and IF they did something will not get caught. I just don't see many cases where kids have truly wandered off and they were not found soon after relatively close by. That just isn't the case here and that is why I am suspicious. Hoping these 2 little guys are found soon.

BTW Welcome to Websleuths....it's a great forum.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I don't think they killed them. I believe they are opportunistic scam artists who took advantage of the system and saw another opportunity to traffic these children.

Respectfully snipped for focused response.
That is certainly a possibility, but....
LE has been doing so much digging. In Cal City, and elsewhere. Lot's of digging. They are looking for remains, not "rambunctious" live tikes. : (

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Trocroc9]

All moo but after watching many videos and the latest interview of the California City Police Chief Jon Walker I think he’s acting a bit, but it’s for the greater good of the investigation. There is no way he knows nothing as he seems to suggest. I think he wants somebody to think that he has nothing. I think they have a lot and hopefully soon we will have some idea where their investigation has led.

 

[Greenestdays]

Hi and welcome,

Have you see then neighbours surveillance footage from the evening they went missing that shows the adopted dad?

I have looked at everything that has been linked on here and I also watched a video on YT by a lady who claimed to highlight "red flags" but her arguments were very shallow.
I understand why people find the adoptive parents suspicious and I suppose history regarding similar cases also supports placing the blame on them. But what I personally feel very uneasy about is the character assassination based on the single (?) media apperiance they have done so far.
Sure, they could have done more to encourage search efforts, but what if they are noy lying when they claim that LE has told them to lay low.

What makes me uncomfortable is the setting where they were placed in front of the cameras. There were literally people there heckling them so no wonder they were acting very dodgy. Sure, they could have arranged a better setting for a new interview and it is odd, that they are not raising hell that their kids (the father did get defensive re the status of the kids) are missing, but people, even adult people, can be weird and act very off when stressed.

 

[nannymo]

I don't think they trafficked them. If they were getting subsidies (even $1000/mo per child). Those 2 boys were worth a lot more money alive and healthy over the next 15-16 years than they could have ever received from being trafficked.....at least I think they would have been.

 

[Algo214]

I don't think they trafficked them. If they were getting subsidies (even $1000/mo per child). Those 2 boys were worth a lot more money alive and healthy over the next 15-16 years than they could have ever received from being trafficked.....at least I think they would have been.

But they were rambunctious, a handful, were they worth the time and effort for some bucks over time or would it be better to have a ton now.
Most would choose now.

JMO and all that.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I don't think they trafficked them. If they were getting subsidies (even $1000/mo per child). Those 2 boys were worth a lot more money alive and healthy over the next 15-16 years than they could have ever received from being trafficked.....at least I think they would have been.

I have wondered if two of the other boys have been used as stand-ins for these missing boys at any point?

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[rosesfromangels]

Hello, I first found this forum because of the Esther Dingley disappearance, but this O&O case made me sign up.

Granted, my cultural background is different, but having read all the threads regarding this case and looked at several videos on YT, I still can't understand how so many seem so sure that the adoptive family are to blame.
Looking at the video I quoted, what I see are two very distressed individuals in a very hostile environment. And if I am not mistaken, is this not the only appearance they have made on camera?
Imagine you are not the very sociable type and suddenly you are thrust into the limelight because the literally worst has happened. You can barely handle yourself, but you must also be aware of how you present yourself, because maybe you are not sympathetic enough. And now you are asked to talk in front of cameras, and a bunch of chavs are heckling you.

I understand the theories that perhaps the kids were never there etc. But I can't understand how anyone can describe the adoptive parents as emtionless or whatnot. They seem very distressed and anxious to me.

I absolutely agreed with your position....at first. I even posted similarly upthread. Then, LE started digging in the backyard. Then additional videos here and there started emerging that are very damning. Now, LE is digging outside of Cal City. We can't get any solid answer on if these kids were ever seen in Cal City, or when they were last seen alive.

It's not looking good. Not at all. How we all wish this were different. We are all sick of these cases with "disappearing" rambunctious children. Really sick of it.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MoeInVA]

I understand the theories that perhaps the kids were never there etc. But I can't understand how anyone can describe the adoptive parents as emtionless or whatnot. They seem very distressed and anxious to me.

(Snip for focus)
Welcome! I agree that the parents appeared distressed in the interview and I couldn’t judge them on that one interview given the great variety in how people act, stressful circumstances etc. It was actually an accumulation of many other factors that made me suspicious. In fact long before that interview, the very first missing person report raised my hackles. No names, generic descriptions, no photos, then some hours later names and one boy’s old photo only. Really the lack of recent photos was the biggest red flag for me, but more things accumulated from there (extended family silent and no recent photos or accounts of their sightings either, no neighbor sightings, LE dropped the SAR VERY quickly and started digging the yard instead, LE focus on home, LE suspects foul play, surveillance footage). The interview was not a major factor in my thinking. JMO.

 

[MsBetsy]

Completely irrelevant. Why say it? As a warning to the supposed kidnappers? You’ll be sorry you grabbed my two boys! They’re going to be rambunctious. A la Ransom of Red Chief?

I think he said that to support the narrative that the boys were picked up by someone. Right after he says they are "going to be rambunctious," he says, They are "going to be here, in this area," (with the emphasis on "here" and "this area,") and I would like to go in the houses... while the mom adds, "just to make sure."

So basically I think he is suggesting that the boys were very active and may have quickly run through the gate and down the road in a matter of seconds.

The problem is, he didn't immediately rush to the gate and search the immediate vicinity when he saw the gate was opened. He went inside, and apparently searched the house with his wife for at least 30 minutes before driving around in the van. We didn't see that period of time in the neighbors video so I guess it's possible they did look everywhere outside.

The dad seems to avoid answering the question as to why they didn't search further when he said, "We wanted to keep searching, but... everybody came out in droves and I wanted to thank you guys..."

Then JW says she "definitely, definitely," (she actually said the word "definitely" three times) thinks that somebody picked them up.

So they seemed to be very confident that this is what happened although in the same interview the mom said they didn't "know anything."

Imo

 

[imstilla.grandma]

I have looked at everything that has been linked on here and I also watched a video on YT by a lady who claimed to highlight "red flags" but her arguments were very shallow.
I understand why people find the adoptive parents suspicious and I suppose history regarding similar cases also supports placing the blame on them. But what I personally feel very uneasy about is the character assassination based on the single (?) media apperiance they have done so far.
Sure, they could have done more to encourage search efforts, but what if they are noy lying when they claim that LE has told them to lay low.

What makes me uncomfortable is the setting where they were placed in front of the cameras. There were literally people there heckling them so no wonder they were acting very dodgy. Sure, they could have arranged a better setting for a new interview and it is odd, that they are not raising hell that their kids (the father did get defensive re the status of the kids) are missing, but people, even adult people, can be weird and act very off when stressed.

You present valid points. It’s not easy to erase the learned behavior of cynicism I hold.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

I have wondered if two of the other boys have been used as stand-ins for these missing boys at any point?

Amateur opinion and speculation

Yes. So have I. I also wonder what first names were used in fostering documentation. Were these names changed in the adoption paperwork? Are fostering parents given birth certificates for identification and documentation? Were the names changed in the court system? Does application for name change need to be made in court? What authority does DHS have in the alteration of names, first or last? I’m ignorant as to this process.

 

[kshultz06082]

Yes. Mashburn. It’s been awhile. Thank you. While he did manage to convince Glass to revel location of Lucas’ body - we will never know the true circumstances of his death. I really love this kid. He is absolutely the reason I remain close to WS. I can feel his spirit here. He and my brother keep me going when I feel discouraged. I sometimes feel like I’m wasting my time and everybody else’s by posting so often when I become invested. I don’t like to come here/go there. Heartbreaking...
View attachment 279146
I think many of you have that one very special kid/baby/teen/human that remains with you.

I most always push away the trafficking consideration. It does happen and we mustn’t forget this. The vast majority of missing children are not trafficked. Still, the longer the boys are missing, the more the idea pops in my head. I would not feel this way if there was one only child missing. But two at the very same moment. Vanishing into thin air. No! Only in dreams and movies. It doesn’t happen. I’m not referring to sex trafficking at all. No, maybe the AP received an offer they couldn’t/didn’t turn down. Someone who wanted children of their own and willing to pay. (My only holdout for a miracle) Whatever happened in Bakersfield to cause the family to skedaddle out of town might be where the investigation is focused. Ground zero. We’re discombobulated. LE knows what they’re doing. I’ve great confidence in our ‘Blue’. imo, they might be trying to build a “no body” investigation in case the boys aren’t found. Organized searches aren’t planned or encouraged. No press releases to state their community is in danger. No FBI kidnapping bulletin. Telling in itself. Where are the boys?

Lucas is my inspiration to stay here when the cases get tough too. He stole my heart. I just sent my pup over the rainbow Bridge and I hope she ran straight into Lucas' arms.

 

[charminglane]

I am sorry for your furry loss, @kshultz06082.
It is the worst.

 

[MsMarple]

I wish the AV guy had asked the neighbor with the surveillance camera if he saw anything in the hour or so prior to the footage he shared in the video (which we've been given permission to discuss). I don't know if the camera would have caught the boys running out of the back gate but it might have captured a car stopping to pick them up.

The fact that the neighbor didn't show it tells me he either didn't view that time frame or (more likely) viewed it and saw nothing.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I wish the AV guy had asked the neighbor with the surveillance camera if he saw anything in the hour or so prior to the footage he shared in the video (which we've been given permission to discuss). I don't know if the camera would have caught the boys running out of the back gate but it might have captured a car stopping to pick them up.

The fact that the neighbor didn't show it tells me he either didn't view that time frame or (more likely) viewed it and saw nothing.

I wondered this as well. Or maybe the tape erases after a certain time period?

 

[Mitch1]

Granted, my cultural background is different, but having read all the threads regarding this case and looked at several videos on YT, I still can't understand how so many seem so sure that the adoptive family are to blame.
Looking at the video I quoted, what I see are two very distressed individuals in a very hostile environment. And if I am not mistaken, is this not the only appearance they have made on camera?
Imagine you are not the very sociable type and suddenly you are thrust into the limelight because the literally worst has happened. You can barely handle yourself, but you must also be aware of how you present yourself, because maybe you are not sympathetic enough. And now you are asked to talk in front of cameras, and a bunch of chavs are heckling you.

I understand the theories that perhaps the kids were never there etc. But I can't understand how anyone can describe the adoptive parents as emtionless or whatnot. They seem very distressed and anxious to me.

I actually agree and and still do at this point. After the interview the APs gave I posted in the 1st thread I felt they were being genuine, particularly TW-he seemed quite shaken. I also feel the surveillance video supports the APs account of what happened the night they went missing.