UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[Kaykedi]

I knew I'd seen 10c somewhere. It appears it's no more than 10c.


Prof Deakin also told the court the river temperature would have been no higher than 10C If Libby had fallen in the river she could remain conscious for 30 minutes and would probably have died after an hour or so

Vulnerable Libby would have 'struggled to defend herself' - trial

WOW. Shows how much I know about rivers

 

[Corneileus]

has he been swimming in that river?

er could someone have taken a real reading if they wanted...im telling you that water was 2-3 degrees c. absolutely no more...it was freezing and the current of the water ....youd be brown bread very quickly. I can stand 10 minutes in summer up at wilfholme, its really cold, ten degrees in summer the current is moving that quick

 

[Cherwell]

This case has made me so scared of Hull

What the Hull do you mean by that?

 

[Winterbells]

I think there may be a grain of truth in the rape location if nothing else.

RSBM
I agree. I think there's a grain of truth in everything he says. Like holding her hand in the street (aka gripping her by the wrist), like doing her seatbelt and locking the doors for her own safety (aka trapping her in his car), like her screaming at him not to leave her (aka screaming at him to leave her alone), like 'helping' her up by her arms (aka pinning her down and bruising her), like noticing saliva coming from her mouth, (aka her desperate last breaths)

 

[Corneileus]

Libby had hypothermia...what chance would she have had staying alive on the ground or in the water...that 30/60 min timescale...would she have perished faster in fast flowing almost freezing water (the current is that powerful it cant freeze like Barmston drain does)... water or earth...30 minutes...how long does a survival expert say hypothermia takes to set in when submerged in cold water. I am just thrown by this so called experts knowledge of the temp of the river Hull on a freezing cold jan/feb morning, snow about.

Why say this? just puzzling because its rubbish.

 

[Vera_dci]

I'm struggling with her not getting caught up in the reeds if she fell in accidentally.

It's certainly not a straight cut case. Sadly there isn't the golden ticket of evidence that he murdered libby BUT look at how much circumstantial evidence there is to suggest he did. The previous convictions, his prowling before and after, no phone on him, his lies etc the only thing we can pull apart is the timing but although it's tight it's still possible according to the prosecution. I'm not totally against another person helping PR either. It could be a random but if anyone else was involved it was the request or knowledge of PR in my opinion.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

According to this, the sea temperature at Hull today was 5 - 6.2 c. It doesn't say what time that was taken, and I don't know whether the river would be a similar temp or not. Just posting in case anyone is interested.

Hull Water Temperature | United Kingdom | Sea Temperatures
Sea water temperature Hull today. United Kingdom, North Yorkshire.

This website explains what happens when you enter cold water (planned):

0-6 DEGREES: BALTIC
Jumping in is likely to impair breathing in the uninitiated, as breath comes in big jolting gasps and it feels like someone has clamped on an ice neck brace. Water has bite, skin smarts and burns. This is winter swimming. Limbs soon become weak – 25 metres can be an achievement – and only takes a minute or two at the lower end of temperatures before skin becomes a lurid purple-orange-red (for those with lighter skin) when you exit.

Cold Water: A Temperature Guide – Outdoor Swimming Society

 

[Lyall0814]

I'm struggling with her not getting caught up in the reeds if she fell in accidentally.

It's certainly not a straight cut case. Sadly there isn't the golden ticket of evidence that he murdered libby BUT look at how much circumstantial evidence there is to suggest he did. The previous convictions, his prowling before and after, no phone on him, his lies etc the only thing we can pull apart is the timing but although it's tight it's still possible according to the prosecution. I'm not totally against another person helping PR either. It could be a random but if anyone else was involved it was the request or knowledge of PR in my opinion.

Plus he keeps saying, at least he's been been reported as saying, "I didn't want my wife to find out I'd cheated".

If he is saying that in the court you can bet the jury will remember it next week.

 

[Corneileus]

According to this, the sea temperature at Hull today was 5 - 6.2 c. It doesn't say what time that was taken, and I don't know whether the river would be a similar temp or not. Just posting in case anyone is interested.

Hull Water Temperature | United Kingdom | Sea Temperatures
Sea water temperature Hull today. United Kingdom, North Yorkshire.

This website explains what happens when you enter cold water (planned):

0-6 DEGREES: BALTIC
Jumping in is likely to impair breathing in the uninitiated, as breath comes in big jolting gasps and it feels like someone has clamped on an ice neck brace. Water has bite, skin smarts and burns. This is winter swimming. Limbs soon become weak – 25 metres can be an achievement – and only takes a minute or two at the lower end of temperatures before skin becomes a lurid purple-orange-red (for those with lighter skin) when you exit.

Cold Water: A Temperature Guide – Outdoor Swimming Society

Temp at night, freezing snow, experts say libby already had hypothermia, if she ended up in the river alive it would not be for long. end for me, just wondered why the expert had to play up the survival odds...bit wierd.

 

[Little Nicki]

look around the location.. its very remote considering in the city, who knows eh...but those timescales DO NOT FIT EVER EVER.I wish they did!

Not even if the act of rape and murder/causing her to become unconscious took less than 1 minute? (which is reasonable to suggest)
Leaving 6 and a half minutes for any movement over and back across the park? Whilst fueled on adrenaline and possibly panic?

 

[Corneileus]

Final thoughts for a week

Pawel took complw

Not even if the act of rape and murder/causing her to become unconscious took less than 1 minute? (which is reasonable to suggest)
Leaving 6 and a half minutes for any movement over and back across the park? Whilst fueled on adrenaline and possibly panic?

so in this first before i sort of respond, is it ok to ask... you say over and back accross the park, 6.5 min...

do u mean he killed libby near to the entrance of the park, carried her to the river in say 4.5 min 5min and then bolted for it for one min.? is this what you mean

 

[Corneileus]

Final thoughts for a week

Pawel took complw

so in this first before i sort of respond, is it ok to ask... you say over and back accross the park, 6.5 min...

do u mean he killed libby near to the entrance of the park, carried her to the river in say 4.5 min 5min and then bolted for it for one min.? is this what you mean

it is possible, unless there science to prove otherwise, but there is science to prove that powerful chemicals can be released through the body in certain situations of trauma/stress/panic..overwhelming guilt...

 

[tigerowl]

It's not just that though. It would be getting Libby out of the car, coaxing her through the gate, getting her into the park. You've probably got a minute there at least as she's unsteady on her feet. A minute to then rape and kill her (which has to be longer than that if you go by the screaming evidence). Then to carry a dead body across the field, up the hump, through the trees, onto the bank, into the river, then run back to the car (remembering to slow to a fast walk as he came into view of windows) and into the car. All the time it's dark and slippery.

 

[Stumpyaura]

I think it's very possible the rape did happen by the gate where the car pulled up. In his testimony that part describing what happened when he pulled over be car contains the most detail. I think he's inserting some truth into the story about Libby being on her knees, almost vomiting and them crying etc. It just feels like a significant point in time and I think the rape happened around those events described. Also, if any of that did happen (assuming we believe any of it and that as soon as they turned up we believe Libby bolted out of the car) there wouldn't be time for that, plus moving into the park for the rape and then whatever followed. Also the fact he mentioned the streetlights makes me think he used that area as he could see what he was doing

 

[Little Nicki]

Final thoughts for a week

Pawel took complw

so in this first before i sort of respond, is it ok to ask... you say over and back accross the park, 6.5 min...

do u mean he killed libby near to the entrance of the park, carried her to the river in say 4.5 min 5min and then bolted for it for one min.? is this what you mean

I'm not suggesting he killed her in a specific place - but I do think it was within the park somewhere probably. But yes that scenario would fit also I guess. I personally think it's most likely she was chased part way into the park. I'm literally just wondering about the time in general tho. It could be 4 mins across, 2 and half mins back, or 5 mins across and 1 and half mins to get back, or any other timings (if we considering the act of rape and murder took less than one minute of the 7 and a half available.

 

[Corneileus]

Times...need to be dealt with in the courts, seriously sc

I think it's very possible the rape did happen by the gate where the car pulled up. In his testimony that part describing what happened when he pulled over be car contains the most detail. I think he's inserting some truth into the story about Libby being on her knees, almost vomiting and them crying etc. It just feels like a significant point in time and I think the rape happened around those events described. Also, if any of that did happen (assuming we believe any of it and that as soon as they turned up we believe Libby bolted out of the car) there wouldn't be time for that, plus moving into the park for the rape and then whatever followed. Also the fact he mentioned the streetlights makes me think he used that area as he could see what he was doing

thats just about my feelings including what you say about the elements of truth. Its classical safe story stuff.
He knows he raped her and left her, he goes back in the A.M third time for the same reason he went the first time, to see if there was another female around or if libby was still either there at the gates area or nearby. Quickly realizes its far too late for another encounter in that area as he was there 4 min approx. not long enough to put libby in the river unless she was already very close to the river bank.

I suggested a firemans lift carrying method as when pawel could of been carrying libby up the bank he could of slipped but in a controlled way on to his knee. explain the deep grass stain but the rape would explain it the same.

The rape took place very close to the houses so in pawels twisted mind it wasnt rape, even though he knew it was evil sick and wrong he could not resist his feelings but libby was easy to persuade. He left her almost as soon as he had finished whilst she was pushing him off, scratching him. As he got upto leave libby made a lot of noise.

Maybe shortly after pawel left, someone else came to console libby...

just considerations

 

[Popcorn80]

Sorry might have already been mentioned as not had chance to follow everything today...bloody homeschool.
Has it been put to him why he didn’t use a condom during ‘sex’ with Libby?
Surely if it was consensual as he says and didn’t want to cheat on his wife he would have done.
Also have the defence named any other people they are bringing forward?
again sorry if these things have been discussed, just give me a hint with a page no!

 

[Lyall0814]

Sorry might have already been mentioned as not had chance to follow everything today...bloody homeschool.
Has it been put to him why he didn’t use a condom during ‘sex’ with Libby?
Surely if it was consensual as he says and didn’t want to cheat on his wife he would have done.
Also have the defence named any other people they are bringing forward?
again sorry if these things have been discussed, just give me a hint with a page no!

Good points Popcorn. I'd be surprised if he isn't asked this because it's another possible motive - he suddenly understands he's made a big mistake if she goes to the police.

 

[Corneileus]

His only chance of gaining any less time from the courts is maybe pleading guilty now to raping her intentionally.

Unless something concrete comes from the prosecution, even if pawel is found guilty of murder, it maybe he did not do it. The most crucial evidence is the time scale as this case is about where were you and for how long. If pawel was home when neighbours heard the screams this is also a problem. I hope there can be some serious light shed on the timescales. I know the area like the back of my hand. 7.5 minutes ...even ten min might not actually be enough. you really have to look around the area for yourself to get a real feel. I see the photos helped for some, good.
i also see the admin are constantly checking/deleting my posts however i feel ive not said anything untoward or away from the trial or the details involved in Libbys disappearance. I only planned to spend an hour here the other night.

Dear admin, my apologies for causing any offence it was not intentional.

Adios.






I think ....im done, been interesting.

 

[Loobyloo]

He laughed? Sick.

I wondered if this was a cynical attempt at manipulation. He will have heard the earlier evidence about his inappropriate laughter during initial police questioning, so he could be trying to say 'see - I always laugh nervously when I'm put under pressure - it doesn't mean anything'.
We've already seen how he tweaks his story each time he's presented with new facts, & the way he picks up on phrases used by the prosecution & recycles them into his own account. This could be a similar move.