Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #4

[CoverMeCagney]

Maybe we should make a distinction between "backcountry" and "wilderness", instead of wilderness vs. non-wilderness?
IMO everything we're looking at for this case qualifies as "backcountry".

Examples:
The US east coast has almost no wilderness, but it does have backcountry. An example is the Appalachian Trail. You can see towns, hear the interstate, hitch to a Walmart everywhere but maybe Maine. Some people stay at motels almost every night for their entire thru hike. So, there's backcountry on the AT, but almost zero wilderness even though people describe it as wilderness.
I have seen many wild spaces and definite "backcountry" in England, but no real "wilderness".

We ain’t got space for wilderness, except perhaps in the highlands of Scotland. Even in England’s most remote areas you could barely go a mile without seeing signs of life - a vehicle, building or actual person. Esther was also only a mile or two from “life” in any direction.

 

[RedHaus]

Hey fellow ED sleuthers. There is a new missing person case on WS you may find intriguing. I sure did!

US Virgin Islands - Hannah Upp, 32, St. Thomas, 14 Sept 2017

 

[Grouse]

Maybe we should make a distinction between "backcountry" and "wilderness", instead of wilderness vs. non-wilderness?
IMO everything we're looking at for this case qualifies as "backcountry".

Examples:
The US east coast has almost no wilderness, but it does have backcountry. An example is the Appalachian Trail. You can see towns, hear the interstate, hitch to a Walmart everywhere but maybe Maine. Some people stay at motels almost every night for their entire thru hike. So, there's backcountry on the AT, but almost zero wilderness even though people describe it as wilderness.
I have seen many wild spaces and definite "backcountry" in England, but no real "wilderness".

TBH in the UK neither "backcountry" and "wilderness" are terms you tend to hear, it's too small and crowded for that as you probably know (with some exceptions in parts of Wales and of course Scotland). But still can be dangerous. 5 years ago I set out on a hike in the Lake District on my own. I had given my wife some details of where I was going ( probably not in enough detail in hindsight). I parked the car in a grass clearing and set off, and about 100 yards from the car I fell into a hidden ditch and badly injured my ankle (permanently - I now have "osteochondrial lesion and delamination" and it still flares up). I managed to drive back to town before the swelling got too bad, but I keep thinking how it could have turned out when I was up there on the hills. It was quite a remote route I had chosen, not one of the popular ones as I do like lonely places, so quite possibly there would have been no one around and likely no mobile signal.

When I think of wilderness in the US it's those massive forests around Maine that come to mind. Partly because of reading the very sad Geraldine Largay case and also after reading The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon (I'm a Stephen King fan).

 

[Grouse]

And I think this was her one big mistake - any other issues would generally be inconsequential. Solo hiking in the middle of nowhere with barely a soul around and patchy phone signal. Realistically, a simple twisted ankle could have been bad enough up there, all alone for hours or even days without being able to get help.

I never saw this till after composing my post about my ankle incident . Precognition!

 

[Grouse]

Hey fellow ED sleuthers. There is a new missing person case on WS you may find intriguing. I sure did!

US Virgin Islands - Hannah Upp, 32, St. Thomas, 14 Sept 2017

Hmm can I handle another case right now?

 

[IrisElizabeth]

Oh well, different strokes for different folks then. I think, without context of the conversation, it’s impossible to denounce Esther as some sort of weirdo beggar like many posters have. Maybe I’m just fortunate that that’s not my first reaction, and that I live in a part of the country where chatting to strangers is normal!

I totally agree, chatting to strangers is something us Brits do well But asking strangers for food isn't one of our cultural norms on the trail or of it. It wasn't just the one conversation where food was asked for that I was referring to, it was Dan's comments that Esther regularly did this that I found a bit odd - I'm not denouncing her as a weirdo by that observation btw!

 

[Grouse]

I totally agree, chatting to strangers is something us Brits do well But asking strangers for food isn't one of our cultural norms on the trail or of it. It wasn't just the one conversation where food was asked for that I was referring to, it was Dan's comments that Esther regularly did this that I found a bit odd - I'm not denouncing her as a weirdo by that observation btw!

Regardless of the rights or wrongs, in the current climate I'd never want to take food like that because I'd be concerned about the covid risks.

 

[fridaybaker]

Snipped for focus
The incidence of malevolence is very low on trails. Sure, there's occasional trouble (the year before last a man went berserk on the AT and killed someone; others had to run for their lives).
If you're looking for a crime target, victims are much readier to hand in town.
Since there's a COVID lockdown in France—not to mention it was winter—the odds of a criminal finding a victim on a French trail in the high mountains were almost zero at the time ED went missing. There's no one out there.

I tend to get tunnel vision. I was thinking that ED, being solo and at that time of year, plus the lockdown, would make her so much more vulnerable to crime. And it likely would. However, as you point out, the time of year plus the lockdown, also makes it an unlikely hunting ground for potential victims. Funny how I saw only one half of that equation!

However unlikely, though, there is always a (probably quite remote) chance that she caught a ride with someone and made it off the mountain, but disappeared there or other such scenario.

I guess at this point we can only hope she wanted a break and for some reason isn't ready to come home. All other scenarios look pretty bad. Her poor family.

 

[fridaybaker]

I knew it! My casalatrinophobia is warranted after all!

We learn everything on this thread, including new vocabulary. Just don't use it at the office...

 

[fridaybaker]

We ain’t got space for wilderness, except perhaps in the highlands of Scotland. Even in England’s most remote areas you could barely go a mile without seeing signs of life - a vehicle, building or actual person. Esther was also only a mile or two from “life” in any direction.

This is a great reference for perspective.

 

[otto]

BBM

On the subject of vulnerability - my take on this is that is just takes one person, whether in a city, on a trail, or anywhere else, who is minded to do another person harm. I don't see why persons in the wilderness should be perceived as any less likely to do so at all, particularly in lockdown when all sorts of other factors might come into play.

Something which sticks in my mind is that a family member of a very close friend was killed by someone she knew in strange and awful circumstances. I never met him, but he had a really unusual name which I googled and saw that he (or at least someone of the same very unusual name) had posted on boards asking for hiking companions to join up with along the route he was planning on taking. This was after he had killed someone and before it was found out.

In fact, I think that it is possible that there are people who go into the wilderness to escape all kinds of demons.

Just my opinion, of course!

Israel Keyes comes to mind. He was an outdoors person who looked for victims everywhere, including hiking trails. The difference today is that France was in lockdown and the Pic de Sauvegarde was more or less deserted. If a predator wants a victim today, there are better places to look than the top of a mountain during lockdown.

 

[miekei]

Hi @10ofRods thanks for that but I can clarify that I do understand the issue in a wilderness space, I posted the article to give another take on it, to broaden our understanding of how others might think. Plus I thought it was interesting, if somewhat revolting. Granted, it was November and Esther certainly went into the wilderness, but this part of her route (in summer at least) was very much by all accounts a heavily populated, family-day-out type walk, not just for seasoned wilderness hikers.

We don't know how Esther's mind worked and whether she understood the issue in a wilderness space, or whether scrimping and saving had become such a norm for her that the didn't appreciate how it might come across to some people. Like I said, as a day hiker it wouldn't bother me at all, I would probably have had a brief chat and given the things that I genuinely didn't want (if there were any - I've got a good appetite!), or if I was nearly finished my walk, feeling generous and liked the person I might give them some of the better items!

Plus she might have been very well prepared with plenty of dried supplies and was just supplementing - we really can only guess.

Just wanted to clarify!

I think we’ve only been presented with excerpts extracted from longer conversations/interactions ED has had with some of the countless fellow hikers she’s come across on the trail. Heard in context these requests for food might not seem all that out of place or inappropriate.

For example, her conversation with the Spanish skier on her way up the Pic, I think would have amounted to more than, “Hi there, beautiful day! Do you have any fruit?”

Clearly this request for fruit was something that the skier mentioned, along with whatever other details he remembered from the entire conversation. This one particular part of the conversation was then widely reported, which has maybe made it seem more important than it really is. All I’m saying is that it’s hard to make an evaluation when you don’t really have the full story. JMO

 

[Quietey]

Israel Keyes comes to mind. He was an outdoors person who looked for victims everywhere, including hiking trails. The difference today is that France was in lockdown and the Pic de Sauvegarde was more or less deserted. If a predator wants a victim today, there are better places to look than the top of a mountain during lockdown.

BBM

Lol true about better places to look for a victim. I think I had something more co-incidental in mind though - person with demons spends time at a deserted place, happens across another person and bad things happen.

 

[10ofRods]

Exactly, Quietey... what might seem rude or desperate to some may come across entirely differently to others. Esther is British and as a nation we’re pretty friendly and help each other out. A quick “nice to meet you, don’t suppose you’ve got a bit of fruit to power me up this hill lol” wouldn’t be considered “begging” here. Cheeky, maybe, but I very much doubt it would upset anyone or make them suspicious. Perhaps some cultural differences going on here!

I don't think anyone in California (or any of the West's wildernesses and national parks) would get "upset" by being asked for food. It has happened to us many times (and water too - which is even more concerning).

However, most people (including the park rangers) would look upon this as a distress signal and a sign the person might actually be really, really hungry. If said person is on a route continuing further into wilderness, my own response would be to hand them a protein bar but if and only if they promised to turn back. If it were getting dark or weather conditions were volatile, I might just say "turn back, you really need to turn back" and not take the time to dig through my provisions. It also depends on what I actually have. I've offered trail mix and cheese cubes and been turned down - but that's what I keep available in my own pockets. I can understand why people wouldn't want my semi-warm cheese cubes or trail mix that I've been eating from all day. People who ask for water seem to want a full, unopened bottle - not something I carry.

Every single time this has happened to us, if possible we have reported the thirsty/hungry person to a ranger, with description - and been thanked by the rangers for doing so.

However, there are no rangers in many of the places we've hiked and in all my years of hiking, not once did anyone in the more remote places ever ask us for food or water. It was only in more touristed places (mostly Grand Canyon) that this happened. It's happened to us on other trails in Arizona, too.

At Grand Canyon, rangers will walk out to try and find the thirsty/hungry hikers, if they can. I've been asked by rangers if I have extra of food, clothing, emergency blanket on every backpacking trip to GC, because there's someone who is stranded without food or adequate shelter for the night. Most notably, a couple wearing only running shorts and running shorts/sports bra, passed us on the trail at mid-morning, only to be stranded on the lower plateau at dusk - same clothes, completely out of water. There's only one campground, so the ranger came through and asked for donations and brought them back there - where the rangers keep one small tent for such emergencies, but they really needed clothes (we had no extra clothes, but we did have a mylar blanket to contribute).

There are currently 30 people still missing in Yosemite, and something like 7 in Sequoia. Many, many more people go missing and have to be found, nearly all of them were lacking in some basic supplies or equipment.

I would obviously be concerned about such a person (as the French lady clearly was), not upset. I wouldn't "bond" with such a person, but I might offer advice to someone who seemed to be lacking in food while on a hike. I will have to say my views on all of this are formed by a missing persons case I was involved in more than 15 years ago - at Grand Canyon. Person was not alive when found. Insufficient water, long story, but it ended up with new signs being posted at every waterless trailhead on the South Rim...people still go without taking enough water, but they are now clearly warned at the trailhead.

 

[Grouse]

Israel Keyes comes to mind. He was an outdoors person who looked for victims everywhere, including hiking trails. The difference today is that France was in lockdown and the Pic de Sauvegarde was more or less deserted. If a predator wants a victim today, there are better places to look than the top of a mountain during lockdown.

Quiet but not deserted. France was in lockdown, Spain wasn't and we have no evidence she ever made it to France. There were people around. The skier and his girlfriend for a start, and I think they said something about most people were coming down at that time of day, implying others had been up there , thought I can't find the quote to back that up right now. On the 19th there was mystery hiker and also another person seen in ED's IG photos. There was the girl ED hiked with. DC reported hunters so that's more people around. So IMO there were enough people who were still around on those peaks in that period before the weather turned a few days later, certainly on the Spanish side. Enough I would say to attract a potential predator, but with it still being quiet enough to present opportunity.

 

[miekei]

Israel Keyes comes to mind. He was an outdoors person who looked for victims everywhere, including hiking trails. The difference today is that France was in lockdown and the Pic de Sauvegarde was more or less deserted. If a predator wants a victim today, there are better places to look than the top of a mountain during lockdown.

Unless they were already in the area, and the opportunity presented itself.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

This is a great reference for perspective.

We’re about the same size as Oregon but with 66 million people. Of course we have our national parks, but they’re still dotted with villages and farms, and plenty of roads. France and Spain are bigger (nearer Cali size) but also with a larger population and a similar spread of rural dwellings. Of course, the Pyrenees is among the sparser regions of Europe, and in winter in lockdown there are very few people around, as we know from this case.

 

[BoraBora]

Hmm not sure I agree with this. I'm British too and I found the statement that Dan made about Esther asking for fruit as a way of connecting with people pretty odd and not really the done thing. I've never been asked for food on a hike by a stranger or would think of asking myself. The norm would be to chat about the route or the weather. To me this behaviour does come across as begging or at least having a strange sense of entitlement to someone else's supplies.

I agree. I'm British too, and would think it very rude/odd if someone on a hike asked me for food, esp as the food on me would be carefully considered to fuel me. I also think Europeans are a lot friendlier/more helpful than the British, and my thinking is that maybe that's why Esther thought it ok to ask for fruit?

 

[Grouse]

Snipped for focus.
You are SO right! I can see being smitten by the view from the Pic, too, especially on a clear day. Me, though maybe not smitten, I'd be awed.
But this is partly, too, why I fear for ED's safety. The trails in and around those mountains look so easy and accessible. Why, a mere scamper will get you to the Hospice! So seductive, but oh, what a dangerous plan. The same with the glacier: she will have seen the tracks though the snow right there in front of her nose, and that, too, might beckon.

Yeah awed is a better word than smitten. In the example of the place in UK I gave it's actually more accurate to just say I felt a connection. I felt it instantly after the first ascent and have climbed it many times since (consulting my notes I see it was 13 times over a three year period). My hiking friends thought I was mad and declined to join me in the end, but it's also why I related to ED climbing the peak that second time.

 

[miekei]

I’d be curious as to how many video surveillance cams there are in Benasque. I realise they’re not as ubiquitous as in the UK, but still. We already know there’s one in the Eroski supermarket, and then there are two gas stations, three banks, at least four hotels......So I have to wonder if they’ve proven to be of any help to LE.