Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[PaulaDC]

um that was kidnapping. mOO

Back then it was called discipline.
moo

 

[PaulaDC]

The fuzzy pic of BG, he looks like he is wearing “dad clothes”. Nothing youthful or trendy.

amateur opinion and speculation

Maybe it was, his Dad's clothes. moo

 

[Deleted member 102539]

HLN

Why Libby? Why Abby?
The Delphi Murders -- A special two-night TV event: Sunday & Monday, Feb. 14 & 15 at 10 p.m. ET (7 PT) only on HLN.

 

[Yemelyan]

It was the question about signatures. Can they be considered the form of OCD, since they are so repetitive?

This article may touch on your question: Serial Killers and the Essential Role of Fantasy

Interesting to note is this criminologist's assertion that murderers who kill for their own pleasure experience an emotional letdown after a murder, as killing never completely fulfills or lives up to the fantasy they created in their mind prior to the crime.

I think we imagine BG walking away from his crime completely satisfied with what happened (especially now evading LE for 4 years), but whether or not he was interrupted by the ringing phone or search efforts, whether or not his original plan was to get them to a vehicle, the crime may sit uneasy on him because it didn't live up to his fantasy of what it would be like. This could either drive him to offend again or like April Tinsley's killer, drive him into another pathway of offending that isn't murder.

 

[TL4S]

This article may touch on your question: Serial Killers and the Essential Role of Fantasy

Interesting to note is this criminologist's assertion that murderers who kill for their own pleasure experience an emotional letdown after a murder, as killing never completely fulfills or lives up to the fantasy they created in their mind prior to the crime.

I think we imagine BG walking away from his crime completely satisfied with what happened (especially now evading LE for 4 years), but whether or not he was interrupted by the ringing phone or search efforts, whether or not his original plan was to get them to a vehicle, the crime may sit uneasy on him because it didn't live up to his fantasy of what it would be like. This could either drive him to offend again or like April Tinsley's killer, drive him into another pathway of offending that isn't murder.

I'm probably being ridiculous, but I always pictured him leaving the crime scene frustrated. Outside from the murders themselves, if he went through the water, he would have had mud and leaves caking his shoes at the least, or at most, been soaked, cold, and a mess. I suppose adrenaline might have made him temporarily impervious to these discomforts, but I just can't get past it.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I'm probably being ridiculous, but I always pictured him leaving the crime scene frustrated. Outside from the murders themselves, if he went through the water, he would have had mud and leaves caking his shoes in the least, or at most, been soaked, cold, and a mess. I suppose adrenaline might have made him temporarily impervious to these discomforts, but I just can't get past it.

That’s the way I’ve always seen it too. I don’t think things went at all like the killer intended them to go. Whether it was a ringing phone or Abby and Libby not behaving or cooperating like he wanted, I don’t know, but I’ve always thought he left the crime scene angry and frustrated. You described well I think how the killer might have looked afterward...wet, mud caked, “a mess”. I think if you add to that the frustration and anger, it’s hard for me to think he would not have drawn a lot of attention if he was walking back along the trails toward Freedom Bridge. Yet no witness seems to say that that we know of. No mud, no angry guy. That’s one reason I don’t think he did walk back that way. I still think he was parked at the cemetery.
Now, four years later, the crime itself might not have been what he hoped it would be, but he’s probably relishing the fact that LE seems to have no clue who he is.

 

[Tealgrove]

I've always thought these two cases were the same killer. But, there isn't any proof that is the case.

Snapchat murders: Serial killer fears as cops probe for link to slain cousins

It's hard NOT to link them as there are so many similarities however LE hasn't linked them - publicly.

I'm looking forward to the CNN two night special on the Delphi murders coming up. Maybe a tidbit of new info or at least bringing the story to a wider audience.

Something's gotta give soon.

MOO

 

[minazoe]

there always seems to be some significance to bodies of water. does anyone know why detectives and profilers studying the location of bodies will possibly link them to other cases where victims are found near bodies of water.

it seems to have significance in some way..as in the some of the Atlantic City Boardwalk victims all found near water with their feet pointed east.

Im curious of what the proximity of water means to the killer or under what circumstances this becomes choice wether subconsciously or as ritual? or is it a matter of geography and nothing more.

2 sets of girls
2.5 to 3 hours drive away
abduction/kidnapping
rural area
park and trail area
daytime murders
remains left in the open
remains left near bodies of water
remains left in freedom bridge area
remains left in seven bridges area
victims close in age
similar near identical communities and topography
victims are white
victims are female
names of victims and dates of crime have symmetry and are similar
even both states begin with an "I"

and yes, 2 of the victims are very similar looking..very similar.

I will tell you a guy like this has a history, has lured and bullied and assaulted before, maybe
family members or in school. He is also competent, super competent and knows exactly what he is doing. He is also not afraid of heights or much of anything obviously a very self contented narcissistic psychopath.

I still think it's possible he was also filming and recording.

mOO

 

[TL4S]

That’s the way I’ve always seen it too. I don’t think things went at all like the killer intended them to go. Whether it was a ringing phone or Abby and Libby not behaving or cooperating like he wanted, I don’t know, but I’ve always thought he left the crime scene angry and frustrated. You described well I think how the killer might have looked afterward...wet, mud caked, “a mess”. I think if you add to that the frustration and anger, it’s hard for me to think he would not have drawn a lot of attention if he was walking back along the trails toward Freedom Bridge. Yet no witness seems to say that that we know of. No mud, no angry guy. That’s one reason I don’t think he did walk back that way. I still think he was parked at the cemetery.
Now, four years later, the crime itself might not have been what he hoped it would be, but he’s probably relishing the fact that LE seems to have no clue who he is.

Yeah, that creek crossing is such a perplexing factor. Intentional, unintentional, how deep, how muddy...? It would complicate things tremendously, either way, I would imagine. It seems like a defining aspect to this case, imo.

 

[Yemelyan]

Yeah, that creek crossing is such a perplexing factor. Intentional, unintentional, how deep, how muddy...? It would complicate things tremendously, either way, I would imagine. It seems like a defining aspect to this case, imo.

I agree. I sometimes wonder if it was an inexplicable part of the offender's fantasy to "drive" them across the creek, part of the idea of control/power that he had. We are looking for pieces to fall into place, for things to be explained rationally, but when things are entwined with the offender's odd and unknown fantasies of the crime, it may be impossible to figure out the why, unless he is caught.

 

[jim lucier]

Respectfully snipped....

We can't rule out a linkage to Delphi based on what is known by the public at this point, but an interesting thing you might not know is that there were two other sex offenders with patterns of abducting pairs of girls near
Evansdale, Iowa in the same time frame as the murders of Lyric and Lizzy. One was Michael Klunder (he was ruled out in the Evansdale murders case and had ready killed himself by the time Delphi happened), and the other was Jeff Altmayer (in 2014 - which rules him out for Delphi - he was arrested for 19 incidents of luring juveniles and sexually assaulting several of them; he has not been ruled out in the Evansdale case).

So luring pairs of girls is unusual but maybe not as totally rare as we think...

Aside from Iowa is anyone aware of any similar MO in either the kidnapping, or homicide of children with similar characteristics? I’ve been looking, but have not found anything as of yet. It’s hard to imagine that the perp hasn’t tried something else.

 

[minazoe]

pairs of young girls abducted, murdered together and found together rare as heck
apparently.

really, really rare.

mOO.

 

[dotr]

I agree. I sometimes wonder if it was an inexplicable part of the offender's fantasy to "drive" them across the creek, part of the idea of control/power that he had. We are looking for pieces to fall into place, for things to be explained rationally, but when things are entwined with the offender's odd and unknown fantasies of the crime, it may be impossible to figure out the why, unless he is caught.

Reminded of someone playing a fantasy war type game at a summer camp or army training session ect.
Getting wet and muddy chasing the 'enemy/prisoners' across a creek, makes it feel more real and enhances the power rush and the down and dirty outdoor experience.
imo, speculation.
World War Ii Soldier Crossing Creek In The Snow High-Res Stock Photo - Getty Images

 

[jim lucier]

HLN

Why Libby? Why Abby?
The Delphi Murders -- A special two-night TV event: Sunday & Monday, Feb. 14 & 15 at 10 p.m. ET (7 PT) only on HLN.

Thanks for posting this!

 

[jim lucier]

pairs of young girls abducted, murdered together and found together rare as heck
apparently.

really, really rare.

mOO.

Doesn't necessarily have to be a pair abduction. How about teens of similar age and features and similar crime scene?

 

[jim lucier]

I agree. I sometimes wonder if it was an inexplicable part of the offender's fantasy to "drive" them across the creek, part of the idea of control/power that he had. We are looking for pieces to fall into place, for things to be explained rationally, but when things are entwined with the offender's odd and unknown fantasies of the crime, it may be impossible to figure out the why, unless he is caught.

Control, power, or an initial intent to move them to another location? Possibly to frighten or degrade them?

 

[jim lucier]

there always seems to be some significance to bodies of water. does anyone know why detectives and profilers studying the location of bodies will possibly link them to other cases where victims are found near bodies of water.

it seems to have significance in some way..as in the some of the Atlantic City Boardwalk victims all found near water with their feet pointed east.

Im curious of what the proximity of water means to the killer or under what circumstances this becomes choice wether subconsciously or as ritual? or is it a matter of geography and nothing more.

2 sets of girls
2.5 to 3 hours drive away
abduction/kidnapping
rural area
park and trail area
daytime murders
remains left in the open
remains left near bodies of water
remains left in freedom bridge area
remains left in seven bridges area
victims close in age
similar near identical communities and topography
victims are white
victims are female
names of victims and dates of crime have symmetry and are similar
even both states begin with an "I"

and yes, 2 of the victims are very similar looking..very similar.

I will tell you a guy like this has a history, has lured and bullied and assaulted before, maybe
family members or in school. He is also competent, super competent and knows exactly what he is doing. He is also not afraid of heights or much of anything obviously a very self contented narcissistic psychopath.

I still think it's possible he was also filming and recording.

mOO

100% agree. This is why I think he has some sort of "act" that allows him to get close to the girls without spooking them until it's too late. It also allows him to pass through these communities anonymously without grabbing attention. MOO

 

[Charlot123]

This article may touch on your question: Serial Killers and the Essential Role of Fantasy

Interesting to note is this criminoloIgist's assertion that murderers who kill for their own pleasure experience an emotional letdown after a murder, as killing never completely fulfills or lives up to the fantasy they created in their mind prior to the crime.

I think we imagine BG walking away from his crime completely satisfied with what happened (especially now evading LE for 4 years), but whether or not he was interrupted by the ringing phone or search efforts, whether or not his original plan was to get them to a vehicle, the crime may sit uneasy on him because it didn't live up to his fantasy of what it would be like. This could either drive him to offend again or like April Tinsley's killer, drive him into another pathway of offending that isn't murder.

Thank you. This is exactly what I thought. Imaginary world....and a very interesting mentioning of the trance-like state.

From the standpoint of prevention, it seems that punishment by parents doesn't work (of course), but what could work, would be pulling the kid off the computer, out of his room, when he states isolating. Tie him up to the real world.. Sadly, many parents have similar (introverted) traits, and can not offer such help.

I wonder if new developments in neurolinguistics, when an isolated kid could talk to his gadgets, could be of some help, because imaginary world, for sure, is full of images, but essentially, silent?

 

[Charlot123]

I'm probably being ridiculous, but I always pictured him leaving the crime scene frustrated. Outside from the murders themselves, if he went through the water, he would have had mud and leaves caking his shoes at the least, or at most, been soaked, cold, and a mess. I suppose adrenaline might have made him temporarily impervious to these discomforts, but I just can't get past it.

My question is, how is he feeling now, in COVID isolation?

Probably the photo and the recording made him very scared. It is another strong, realistic, emotion, that might have broken the behaviors, for a while. What is happening now, though?

 

[Falling Down]

This article may touch on your question: Serial Killers and the Essential Role of Fantasy

Interesting to note is this criminologist's assertion that murderers who kill for their own pleasure experience an emotional letdown after a murder, as killing never completely fulfills or lives up to the fantasy they created in their mind prior to the crime.

I think we imagine BG walking away from his crime completely satisfied with what happened (especially now evading LE for 4 years), but whether or not he was interrupted by the ringing phone or search efforts, whether or not his original plan was to get them to a vehicle, the crime may sit uneasy on him because it didn't live up to his fantasy of what it would be like. This could either drive him to offend again or like April Tinsley's killer, drive him into another pathway of offending that isn't murder.

This line of reasoning could definitely be true. I've thought perhaps BG gets a thrill from being so famous, maybe even follows the case closely and gets a thrill from what he did.

JMO