UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #23

[NorthernSoul]

I am curious what the Websleuthers who do not think or are on the fence as to whether PR murdered Libby think after hearing the defense. I think most of us agree with rape but I think we have many who do not agree with murdered. Has the defense changed your thoughts? I am not suggesting anyone is wrong in their thinking. Just wondering because I feel the jurors may also be a mix like us. Has the defense provided enough doubt? Have they changed anyone’s mind either way?
Edit: spelling

I'm convinced 100% of rape but still not 100% convinced there is enough proof of murder. The fact some people on this forum are also still conflicted suggests to me that nobody can conclusively state what happened which is very unfortunate. The prosecution have put forward a very good case but they have also deliberately avoided some evidence which was inconvenient to them such as the people hearing screams at 12.30 after PR had left and the fact that Libby had fluid in one lung which could be consistent with drowning. It was very harrowing hearing some of the details today and obviously so much more for Libby's family. I'm surprised by the tack the defence took and the suggestion that Libby has committed suicide. Personally I do not believe that. If she was not murdered I am more of the opinion that, traumatised and distraught she has fallen in the river. Maybe the reason they have avoided this scenario is, as some of you have said, the jury might decide that PR would ultimately be to blame for this scenario anyway? They are trying to put all of the blame on Libby and that is nonsense in my opinion. I haven't heard anything surprising today which made me think that PR was not guilty, that's for sure.

 

[jamjim]

15:53
No self-harming for eight months

The judge said: “At the time of her death, her mother said she had not self-harmed for eight months and had not had any thoughts of suicide since her teenage years.

"Her mother said she took her back to Hull on January 27, 2019 and she was looking forward to getting back.

“Her mother said she enjoyed nights out and getting drunk. She also told you about Libby’s fear of water. She was scared at the thought of anything touching her and thought about germs and dirt."

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[jamjim]

15:55
Libby was 'coping much better'

Justice Lambert is now recapping what Libby's boyfriend revealed.

She said: “You heard from her boyfriend and he understood that there had been suicide attempts before they got together.

"He said they were not, in his judgement, serious attempts and she did not want to die. He said when she made attempts they were spur of the moment and she would alert someone and he said she was ‘not strong enough to kill herself’.

“He said she had not self-harmed for seven or eight weeks and they struck a deal he wouldn’t smoke cannabis if she wouldn’t self-harm but he thought there had been a relapse before New Year as he had seen some cuts.

"He said his perspective as a boyfriend was that she had thrown herself into her course and really enjoyed it and was coping much better than he thought she would and she was doing really well.

“He told you something about Libby in drink. She was described as a happy, loud and loving drunk.

"You also heard statements read to you from her friends. They told you of some of the tensions in the house, how relevant that is is a matter for you.”

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[Steve2021]

As to the rape Mr Saxby hasn't put up anything at all has he? Not even suggested Libby had capacity to consent or that PR had a genuine even if mistaken belief that she did. So why on earth has PR pleaded not guilty, meaning he's had to go into the witness box and be a sitting duck for the prosecution?

More accurately see my revised post underneath, revised after reading the judge refers to Mr Saxby saying Libby consented.

 

[Steve2021]

As to the rape apart from just stating perfunctorily Libby had capacity to consent, Mr Saxby hasn't put up anything at all has he? Hasnt even suggested that if she didn't PR had a genuine even if mistaken belief that she did. So why on earth has PR pleaded not guilty, meaning he's had to go into the witness box and be a sitting duck for the prosecution?

 

[Mommysleuth11]

Legal professionals are impartial and do not lean or make nods to either side of the case.

This has been previously pointed out when suggesting the pathologists were “leaning toward a cause of death”

From what has been heard today it also seems those inferences were also opposite from what was said, ie there were some signs of drowning but non of asphyxiation, although she would not be drawn to say drowning was "likely", simply that it was inconclusive.
Its really difficult when relying on reported snippets and not hearing the full facts.

 

[Newthoughts]

From what has been heard today it also seems those inferences were also opposite from what was said, ie there were some signs of drowning but non of asphyxiation, although she would not be drawn to say drowning was "likely", simply that it was inconclusive.
Its really difficult when relying on reported snippets and not hearing the full facts.

When did you hear that?

 

[JosieJo]

I've got to be honest ... based on the reporting of the defence I've no idea what may have had any effect on the jury ....so I'm sticking with i do not think murder has been proved but they will go guilty

 

[Stumpyaura]

Legal professionals are impartial and do not lean or make nods to either side of the case.

This has been previously pointed out when suggesting the pathologists were “leaning toward a cause of death”

When the judge said "You are able to draw inferences from the evidence. You will reach your verdicts based on all of the evidence in this case." I think he was providing balance to the fact that defence said you can't draw inferences from evidence

 

[Sarahjo]

Sarahjo, you understanfably refer to the 12.30 screams. But it seems Mr Saxby has chosen to prefer this timing to whatever SA said ...I can only assume it's because whatever that was doesn't suit him. I thought he'd argue a defence for each one. Suggests to me unless the jury also go with him on that he may know he's in trouble.

And the prosecution went with SA’s times and not the 12.30 time as that fit their narrative better, both witnesses said they checked their phones and that’s the times they stated, it’s just raises doubt.. I’m just looking at it clinically and factually.. if I looked at it emotionally I’d say lock him up for good!

 

[Challwood]

From my memory the medical expert said Libby was likely dead or dying when placed in the river. Libby could not place herself dead or dying into the river. Any screams heard past PR initial time of leaving the scene could just mean he raped and left her there in the snow and then placed her into the river when he returned and found her unconscious or dead upon his later return to the scene, after which he was seen wearing wet jogging bottoms. In my opinion he is guilty for her rape and death, whether that be by murder or by her succumbing to the elements after his initial attack. All MOO.

Ive since searched and seen that it was the prosecution rather than medical expert that said she was placed dead or dying into the river. Libby Squire murder: man, 26, raped and killed student, court hears

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Almost afraid to comment as it seems many are beyond convinced and I may be lynched for having an alternative opinion.

I think the defence did a good job, he highlighted points that I wasn't aware if or that had only been very briefly mentioned. For me now besides the issues of timings, defence barrister certainly raised enough doubts that I would be likely to say Guilty of Rape but Not Guilty of murder.

Sorry as much as I am aware this is a highly unpopular opinion and extremely unpalatable to hear, the information raised with regard to Libbys mental state and frame of mind both on that night and before could absolutely be relevant and there is nothing that convinces me we can be sure at all what actually transpired that night.
We can be sure he's a pervert and his intentions towards libby were far from honourable but for me that is all I can be sure on.

Before the trial I would have had him guilty of murder without hearing the evidence, the idea of her simply falling into the river was preposterous to me, hearing the evidence however I sadly feel it cannot be proven to be at PRs hand.

Your opinion is a valid as anyone’s. Whether we agree or not does not make anyone’s thoughts or opinion less important. MOO

 

[Mommysleuth11]

When did you hear that?

In Mr Saxby summing up, I can't find the exact link of quote right now but it said the pathologist said that some of the (classic?) signs, fluid on one side of the chest could indicate drowning? That was never reported at the time, just that he wouldn't be drawn to say it was likely.

 

[Steve2021]

You'd imagine it wouldn't be the case, but now it feels like the Mauri CCTV footage could be taken from the only camera with a view of the river bank. Surely not?

I guess a problem the police have is how quickly can they get round and check for CCTV before it's deleted. If Libby had been found straight away I'm sure they'd be all over it immediately and they might have found a lot more.

 

[Newthoughts]

I would go guilty of both. Based on weighing up ALL of the evidence we've heard here. Not just parts. I know that's not popular.

And I'm grateful to the additional insights here from people with friends in the police and prison service (who have far more experience than any of us) who are positive he's guilty.

Whether the jury will or not I don't know. But I think he will do it again as soon as he's released. He's not a simple little perv that got lucky

 

[NorthernSoul]

Does anyone else think this verdict will be made all the more difficult for the Jury in the fact that many of their friends, family and work colleagues will be familiar with this case and will know they are a juror on it. If they come out with a not guilty verdict there could be an outpouring of fury from the general public and even people closer to them as this is such an emotive case and Libby was such a lovely girl with her whole life ahead of her? They have a tremendous amount of pressure on them right now.

 

[jamjim]

16:11
Jury being reminded of what happened the night Libby disappeared

Justice Lambert is now going through in detail about what happened the night Libby disappared.

She talks about Libby drinking with her friends and heading to the Welly Club before being turned away and being put in a taxi back home.

Witnesses describe Libby being on Beverley road and clearly drunk and disorientated.

Other say she was on the floor and crying but declined any help or did not seem to make sense when she was asked what was the matter.

Libby Squire murder trial live: Defence gives closing statement

 

[VicBlazey]

Does anyone else think this verdict will be made all the more difficult for the Jury in the fact that many of their friends, family and work colleagues will be familiar with this case and will know they are a juror on it. If they come out with a not guilty verdict there could be an outpouring of fury from the general public and even people closer to them as this is such an emotive case and Libby was such a lovely girl with her whole life ahead of her? They have a tremendous amount of pressure on them right now.

Technically they shouldn’t know because as a juror, you’re not supposed to talk about the case until the trial is over. They are also in Sheffield and not Hull so maybe not as many people there will be aware of the case.

 

[Cherwell]

Does anyone else think this verdict will be made all the more difficult for the Jury in the fact that many of their friends, family and work colleagues will be familiar with this case and will know they are a juror on it. If they come out with a not guilty verdict there could be an outpouring of fury from the general public and even people closer to them as this is such an emotive case and Libby was such a lovely girl with her whole life ahead of her? They have a tremendous amount of pressure on them right now.

I wouldn't assume that, no. Remember this trial is not in Hull, it's in Sheffield, so there will be no strong local awareness.

 

[Cherwell]

she was on the floor

O/T but I am always fascinated by the use of language.
Where I come from we would only say "floor" if we were talking about interiors. Outside we would say "the ground". So someone would be lying on the floor if indoors, but on the ground if outside. I've noticed everyone on this thread has used the word floor. Interesting.