Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

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I just came back to the forum after my email notifications ceased and I saw this news article. It sure helps saving the last notification so I can get back to the thread without spending 20 minutes going through old pages.
This is certainly a welcome development after so much procrastination and obfuscation and inaction by TPS. Ever the conspiracy theorist, I wonder if the TPS investigation has stalled due to people in high places being involved.

I know it’s a theory, but why might they want to stall the investigation now?

I know there was some controversy over Mayor Tory getting involved early on.

eta: I hope you get this notification : )
 
Hot off the press this morning... Perhaps Mr. Grady will be in a position to shed some light.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/family-sherman-deaths-police-probe-1.5896496

O/T

This reminds me of something I heard while watching a Netflix documentary about murderers.

A retired LE officer was asked 'what do murderers want to know'?

His very quick response was, 'they want to know what evidence the police have/what do the police know'.

They say that murderers cannot remain the same once they've committed a murder, hard to fake a 'normal' existence after the fact. MOO, IMO, JMO

I would imagine it does change you, a lot. MOO, IMO, JMO

Not sure why this popped into my mind, but it did right away. MOO, IMO, JMO
 
O/T

This reminds me of something I heard while watching a Netflix documentary about murderers.

A retired LE officer was asked 'what do murderers want to know'?

His very quick response was, 'they want to know what evidence the police have/what do the police know'.

They say that murderers cannot remain the same once they've committed a murder, hard to fake a 'normal' existence after the fact. MOO, IMO, JMO

I would imagine it does change you, a lot. MOO, IMO, JMO

Not sure why this popped into my mind, but it did right away. MOO, IMO, JMO
Exactly.

I'm glad media was able to distinguish who JS's private investigation was using as its connection to TPS. Just in case the older fellow may have been rekindling old friendships and such, and asking questions about the case.. at least they'll know the 'why' now.
 
O/T

This reminds me of something I heard while watching a Netflix documentary about murderers.

A retired LE officer was asked 'what do murderers want to know'?

His very quick response was, 'they want to know what evidence the police have/what do the police know'.


They say that murderers cannot remain the same once they've committed a murder, hard to fake a 'normal' existence after the fact. MOO, IMO, JMO

I would imagine it does change you, a lot. MOO, IMO, JMO

Not sure why this popped into my mind, but it did right away. MOO, IMO, JMO

RBBM

This is what bugged me about the official and private autopsies, as Donovan described it.

He said the government pathologist Dr. Pickup showed Dr. Chiasson and the private detective team crime scene photos and gave them details about the injuries to the Shermans’ wrists...if the killer is close to the family, they would then know about important forensic evidence.

Donovan said Dr. Pickup had not asked permission to attend from his boss, and ‘caught heat’.

Pg. 83:
AFCCB961-8F92-45ED-B64A-8DD9533F4CA9.png
 
Pickup had NO business speaking with/showing photos/giving information to the privately hired 'other side' even if they are the children of the decedents. IMO

Pickup works for and only for the Province of the Coroner or whatever its proper name is....he should have been fired, IMO.

There is professional courtesy and then there's THIS. IMO

The Shermans' are not above the law nor are their hired help. IMO
 
Pickup had NO business speaking with/showing photos/giving information to the privately hired 'other side' even if they are the children of the decedents. IMO

Pickup works for and only for the Province of the Coroner or whatever its proper name is....he should have been fired, IMO.

There is professional courtesy and then there's THIS. IMO

The Shermans' are not above the law nor are their hired help. IMO

But according to KD it was that second autopsy that determined the couple had been murdered. If not for that, it’d been an investigative file closed shut and labelled m/s. What to believe.....

Barry and Honey Sherman: how the second autopsy revealed it was a double murder
 
"according to KD" ....... It may have been closed or it may not have been closed.

We, the public are not privy to sensitive information nor to most of the evidence gathered.

TPS only leaks what it wishes to leak, as in all cases. IMO

I'm not sure their wrists were injured at all, that could be total fabrication. IMO

The 'fact' that according to KD, both divisional and homicide police declined the invitation to the second autopsy, tells me that the TPS were quite satisfied with information gleaned at the original autopsy. IMO

Either that or they were very sloppy and not doing their due diligence. IMO
 
But according to KD it was that second autopsy that determined the couple had been murdered. If not for that, it’d been an investigative file closed shut and labelled m/s. What to believe.....

Barry and Honey Sherman: how the second autopsy revealed it was a double murder[/



DR. MICHAEL POLLANEN-SLAMMED-ONTARIO CHIEF PATHOLOGIST

“...Pollanen fell into several major pitfalls laid out by the landmark Goudge inquiry sparked by Smith's work, Molloy found.

Among them was confirmation bias - reaching a conclusion and working backward to find evidence to support it, and professional credibility bias - being unwilling to change an opinion once stated....”

Sounds like he and TPS are a perfect match for this case. Jmo
 
"according to KD" ....... It may have been closed or it may not have been closed.

We, the public are not privy to sensitive information nor to most of the evidence gathered.

TPS only leaks what it wishes to leak, as in all cases. IMO

I'm not sure their wrists were injured at all, that could be total fabrication. IMO

The 'fact' that according to KD, both divisional and homicide police declined the invitation to the second autopsy, tells me that the TPS were quite satisfied with information gleaned at the original autopsy. IMO

Either that or they were very sloppy and not doing their due diligence. IMO

Yes but they chose not to attend the second autopsies, so couldn't that also mean that TPS was satisfied, as a result of the first set of autopsies, that it was a M/S and not a M/M? Their conclusion at that time wasn't necessarily a M/M. We don't know what their conclusion was. In fact, some of their actions or inactions may indicate they may well have concluded it was a M/S based on the first set of autopsies performed, plus other evidence they had gathered to that point in time.
 
Big thanks, for the huge article!
Warning, autopsy details.

''Barry and Honey Sherman: how the second autopsy revealed it was a double murder
Kevin Donovan March 03, 2020''

''If he was going to do a second set of post-mortems, Chiasson wanted it done right, and that meant having experienced investigators in the room to make observations and notes. When Michael Pickup performed the official autopsies on the Shermans the previous Saturday, Toronto police detectives were present. Joining Chiasson from the private team that morning were former Toronto homicide detectives Tom Klatt, Ray Zarb and Mike Davis.

Also present were two former forensic identification officers, now retired, one who had been with the Toronto police and the other with the Ontario Provincial Police. The former ID officers were in the room to make detailed observations and to ensure the chain of custody for any samples taken, which Sherman lawyer Brian Greenspan insisted on. Even though this was an unofficial investigation, Greenspan wanted anything discovered by his team to stand the legal test of a criminal court, if it came to that.

Shortly before 9 a.m., Barry Sherman's body was wheeled in. In the days when Chiasson had conducted autopsies for the province, it had been in the old coroner's office in downtown Toronto. This would be the first time he performed a post-mortem examination at the new state-of-the-art building in Toronto's North York.

The task ahead of him was formidable. It was like being asked to complete a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing.

The process of conducting an autopsy involves cutting the body open, removing organs or sections of organs for analysis, and taking fluid and other samples, including skin biopsies. Dr. Pickup's autopsy, which had determined that both Shermans had died by ligature neck compression, had been typically invasive. The other problem was that, unlike when he had conducted official post-mortems at the direction of police investigators, Dr. Chiasson had no access to the scene where the body was found. That was why Dr. Pickup was present.''

''From his conversation with Pickup, and from the police news release, Chiasson knew ligature neck compression had been determined as the medical cause of death. He was curious to see the condition of the horseshoe-shaped hyoid bones in both necks he was going to examine. Though not conclusive, the condition of the hyoid bone would inform his determination.

There were those in the forensic pathology world who believed that to make a ruling of murder by strangulation it was imperative that the hyoid bone be fractured. But 20 years earlier, Chiasson and Michael Pollanen, now the province's chief forensic pathologist, had authored a study that proved this was not the case.

They found the bone was fractured in only one-third of the cases of homicide by strangulation. In the other two-thirds, an intact hyoid was found to be related to several factors, including the pressure that was used on the neck, the condition of the hyoid bone to begin with, and the type of ligature that was used. The softer the ligature wrapped around the neck, the less likely the hyoid bone was to fracture.

Compounding this, and creating further confusion, was how age factored in. In the two-decade-old study, Chiasson and Pollanen had found that the older the victim, the more likely the hyoid bone was to fracture in a homicidal strangulation.

Barry Sherman's hyoid bone had been removed in the earlier autopsy by Pickup. But through information provided to Chiasson that day, he came to understand that neither Barry nor Honey's hyoid bone was fractured. Chiasson wondered if that was why police thought it was a murder-suicide. As he had shown with his research years before, a murder with a soft ligature could leave an intact hyoid.''
 
I hope you get this notification : )
Off topic, but pertinent to the Websleuths forum, I'm subscribed to this thread by email notification and I did get this one. However, eventually the email notifications stop coming. Sometimes when the moderator starts a new thread, but mostly for no reason at all. I think it started when the platform was changed. That's why I now always save the last notification to use whenever the notifications stop for a few days so I can access the thread just a page or two late instead of going through many older closed threads.
 
O/T

Jayfriend,

If you look at the top, right hand corner it says ALERTS.

Every time someone posts to this thread (or any other thread you are following, its noted as an ALERT).

If you click on them, you might have an easier time of finding your way around. Best of luck.
 
The move would see the couple leave the six-bedroom, nine-bathroom North York house they’d called home since 1991; they’d moved in after five years of construction. When they discovered the work did not meet their standards, they launched more than a dozen lawsuits against architects, contractors and tennis-court designers. At one point, Sherman testified that the house was a “disaster.” At the core of the dispute was an allegedly faulty garage structure with a tennis court on top and a sauna and underground pool inside—the location where the Shermans’ bodies would be found. By the time the court battles were resolved, the couple recouped close to $2 million of the estimated $2.3-million construction costs.

Sherman wasn’t keen on moving from the house on Old Colony Road, but was doing it for Honey. “He just said: ‘You know, I wish I was staying here, but my wife wants to move so we’re moving,’ ” says Frank D’Angelo, Sherman’s close friend and business partner in non-Apotex ventures.

On Nov. 27, their house was listed for $6.9 million, described as an “architectural modern masterpiece.” Why the Shermans were selling when contractors hadn’t begun to build their new home isn’t clear.
Endless court battles, angry relatives and shady players: the truth about Barry Sherman

I can't help, but I think, the most reasons for retribution on both of the Shermans (presenting them sitting dead at the pool railing) had the former crew of builders. Of course the outrageously high ten son JS had motive too, it seems. Right following him I would tend to suspect someone of the former builders.
After that, the innumerable enemies in any order are on my list. - A gut feeling and speculation and worth nothing, I know. ;)
 
I stand by my theory: Barry and Honey had an argument which turned physical....Barry injured Honey's fragile neck [prior surgeries]. The altercation occurred in another part of the house. When Barry realized that Honey was dead, he had someone close to him complete the scenario. Barry could not face the shame. He could not commit an ordinary suicide....that would forever paint him as a murderer. That someone followed Barry's instructions that led to the two bodies sitting by the swimming pool. That scenario explains everything: no shame, perfect double homicide, plenty of time to contact and convince someone to help him complete the scenario, no shadow on the family, wipes out possible guilt of family members. Barry was a controller. He could do that. He had the intelligence to plan all this out.

.
Another part of the house: kitchen.
 
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