GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

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CoverMeCagney said:
But we know there are gaps in the reporting. For example, last night I quoted the HDM coverage about the footprints. I am quite sure PR was asked further questions about that, since he admitted he could see her footprints on the third visit, but we don’t know what the outcome was.

Hopefully there are a few more crucial nuggets of information that the jury have and we don’t!
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There are literally hours of evidence and pages of exhibits we have no idea about
 
mrjitty said:
There are literally hours of evidence and pages of exhibits we have no idea about
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When the judge was closing the case, she mentioned a specific number of evidence - something which was more than 300 I think but I cannot find it now... is that a lot or too little? I am completely ignorant of trials and this is my first trial on WS so I am not certain what to expect. The evidences are numbered though right? Is an exhibit part of the evidence ? So when that number was given could it refer to either exhibit or evidence(such as a witness statement?)
 
bos said:
I don’t know - reporter could be basing it around the typical courtroom day of 10:30-4:30(earlier finish Friday & today) with 1-2 lunch & shorter breaks am & pm rather than direct knowledge
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Do you think - and anyone else - should I keep my hours or go by the reporter's?

TIA! Just want to keep my notes straight! ;)
 
Steve2021 said:
I think this case is pretty unusual. There are difficulties with the evidence (or lack of evidence) and the law (murder v manslaughter). So you can't fairly use it to demonstrate whether the system in general is appropriate.

Whether judges are more able to determine the facts because a. they are more intelligent than the average juror, or b. because they have greater experience, hard to know. I believe artificial intelligence court case software is being developed that is supposedly better than us humans, but while it might be acceptable (to the government at any rate) in China I can't see the populations of democratic nations agreeing to be judged by it.
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I think it's the lack of experience that concerns me more than anything. I think it's been helpful here that people have posted things like how to determine how to determine the most plausible explanation of a set of options. That wouldn't be available to the jury.

But even so I'm not understanding the distinction between murder and manslaughter.


I hope the jury find him whatever he is. Considering everything here from start to finish and looking at the definition of murder again and again - I think he's guilty of murder.

No plausible alternative explains everything as well as that. Fit it to murder he has no excuses. IMO.

I hope Libby gets justice tho. Her family need that
 
JosieJo said:
We have no evidence to show he killed her by silencing her ....if we did he would have been convicted last week imo
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I think you'll find I says silencing someone as I was using it as an example to work thru the definition.

Asphyxiation is an option given by the pathologist but looking at the definition of murder anything would go as far as I can see.

Would you interpret differently? I'd added the link to CPS
 
Dotta said:
Dear Niner, Are you a WS archivist? Do you keep notes of all WS trials - like WS Files? Or is it a hobby? I'm really curious. Thanks:)
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No - I'm not the WS archivist - that would be @AmandaReckonwith - now SHE has the greatest files for WS!! :)

This is just a "side" hobby. I started keeping notes for cases I was following here so I knew "when" hearings & trials were going to happen - and there are quite a few, as you can tell - so I just thought I'd share my notes on each of the cases. Aren't you glad I did?! LOL! :D
And I used to be an office manager/bookkeeper, plus a Virgo - so I like things organized! :)
 
Niner said:
No - I'm not the WS archivist - that would be @AmandaReckonwith - now SHE has the greatest files for WS!! :)

This is just a "side" hobby. I started keeping notes for cases I was following here so I knew "when" hearings & trials were going to happen - and there are quite a few, as you can tell - so I just thought I'd share my notes on each of the cases. Aren't you glad I did?! LOL! :D
And I used to be an office manager/bookkeeper, plus a Virgo - so I like things organized! :)
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Thank you so much for sharing your treasures with us all! They are super helpful! I know this kind of hobby - my Dad writes the history of our family - he has thousands of notes neatly filed in several FAT folders. It is good to have a passion:)
 
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Niner said:
No - I'm not the WS archivist - that would be @AmandaReckonwith - now SHE has the greatest files for WS!! :)

This is just a "side" hobby. I started keeping notes for cases I was following here so I knew "when" hearings & trials were going to happen - and there are quite a few, as you can tell - so I just thought I'd share my notes on each of the cases. Aren't you glad I did?! LOL! :D
And I used to be an office manager/bookkeeper, plus a Virgo - so I like things organized! :)
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@Niner glad the operation went well and you’re feeling fighting fit to collate all of this information. It’s very much appreciated :)
 
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C.greek said:
The pathologist said no natural causes for her death. Would that exclude cardiac arrest?
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Sooty said:
I think cardiac arrest would be a natural cause if it was due to an existing medical condition, for example an existing heart disease. If it was due to an accident or a trauma it wouldn’t be deemed natural cause, even if essentially it was the cardiac arrest that caused the death. ‘Natural causes’ refers more to the manner of death rather than the specific cause, I believe. Disclaimer: I’m not a medic though! There may be someone better qualified to answer.
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Hi, first time poster, long time follower of this and a couple of other UK cases.
Felt I could for the first time in this case add something to the discussion!

So cardiac arrest (basically means heart stops beating) is a mode of death, not a cause. It always has an underlying cause. As does respiratory arrest, kidney failure, liver failure, asphyxiation etc. None of these can go on a death certificate unless further information given re: a cause.

Cause of death could be myocardial infarction, stroke, cancer of X, asphyxiation due to hanging, drowning for example.

Natural causes means death due to an internal problem/illness or an infection (of which Libby had no evidence of at PM).

Unnatural cause would be due to an external factor (apart from infection) eg an accident or other trauma.
 
Dotta said:
Does unethical lead to happiness Steve?
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The thing is, the punishment set for rape is not something that's come down from God or some higher authority. It's simply the tariff set by the UK government at any particular time. That neither makes the tariff right in an absolute sense, or means that it is considered right by the residents of the UK.
 
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Dotta said:
I understand perfectly Steve - that is why the public should put pressure on lawmakers - and that is right and ethical. And brave. Not the utilitarian concept you mentioned. Unethical always breeds corruption.
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The way I see how it works is this. It's very easy to fail to appreciate the degree of suffering of a victim of serious crime when that victim isn't you or someone you love. It's easy to think it's not that bad, or well, bad things happen, I am sorry for you but you'll get over it. And I think there's also conscious or subconscious thinking that it wouldn't happen to you, or people like you, so there's no need to get terribly excited even if you feel the punishment too soft. This train of thought is then reflected by lawmakers in determining sentencing which inevitably means sentences are softer than many, and I submit, most feel appropriate.

Well I say, if you were a lawmaker and it happened to you, you wouldn't be thinking like that, you'd be outraged and you'd then know how these people who weren't "people like you" feel, and you'd want something done about it!
 
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Steve2021 said:
The way I see how it works is this. It's very easy to fail to appreciate the degree of suffering of a victim of serious crime when that victim isn't you or someone you love. It's easy to think it's not that bad, or well, bad things happen, I am sorry for you but you'll get over it. And I think there's also conscious or subconscious thinking that it wouldn't happen to you, or people like you, so there's no need to get terribly excited even if you feel the punishment too soft. Hence this train of thought is reflected by lawmakers in determining sentencing.

Well I say, if you were a lawmaker and it happened to you, you wouldn't be thinking like that, you'd be outraged and you'd then know how these people who weren't "people like you" feel, and you'd want something done about it!
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*The end justifies the means* leads nowhere - only to more unhappiness. But fight to change the *soft*laws is right and should continue.
 
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