GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

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Edinlass said:
Looks like the jury haven’t got a majority vote as yet. What a shame on Libby’s family.
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Probably stuck on debating murder vs manslaughter, as they've not yet been given the option of reaching a majority verdict. Today they were still looking for a unanimous one. Perhaps that will change tomorrow, weather permitting of course.
 
I have another question for my UK friends! I talked to a couple friends this weekend about this case. One is a police detective. He was curious about how charges are decided. Do detectives present a list of crimes to the CPS and they determine what the charges will be? For instance if PR was being charged in the US, the charges would have been three or four pages long. Maybe not all would have gone to trial but it would give the Defense some incentive to plea. Hope my question makes sense.
 
Loobyloo said:
Probably stuck on debating murder vs manslaughter, as they've not yet been given the option of reaching a majority verdict. Today they were still looking for a unanimous one. Perhaps that will change tomorrow, weather permitting of course.
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I've been trying to find out whether there's any official guidance on how long a jury should be left seeking a unanimous verdict, before the judge intervenes to say a majority verdict would be acceptable. It seems it's entirely up to the judge's...um, judgement - as long as the jury has been retired for at least 2 hours (!).

No court shall accept a verdict by virtue of subsection (1) or (2) above unless it appears to the court that the jury have had such period of time for deliberation as the court thinks reasonable having regard to the nature and complexity of the case; and the Crown Court shall in any event not accept such a verdict unless it appears to the court that the jury have had at least two hours for deliberation.​
Juries Act 1974 - Majority Verdicts
I suppose with the case being as serious as murder, & the evidence certainly being complex, we could be in for a long wait.

(edited to clarify link)
 
RosalindaA said:
It would be so interesting to be a fly on the wall with this jury. I wonder if their discussion reflects ours or is sticking on other points. I think, as others have said, it's probably the murder/manslaughter choice that is troubling for them, I can see why some might have difficulty with interpreting these definitions.

I think we all evolve (hopefully) here as we learn more and follow more cases. I can remember when I was a teenager/early 20s when I knew nothing about "domestic" violence I would see the husband saying, well I pushed her and she just happened to smash her skull on something sharp. Then after seeing that strangely, so many dead wives and girlfriends seemed to do this that they must have some sort of magnet in their heads that attracted them to sharp objects, it dawned on me that "this was not what was really happening here".

Like the so-called "rough sex" defence (that I think is supposed to be disallowed in the UK now?), that there are so many women that really love being thrown down stairs, strangled, body-slammed against a wall, so erotic, I know all my friends talk about how much we enjoy this....

What I'm trying to say is that I suppose there are stock lies that it is pretty safe to disbelieve because they are so self-serving and police recognise them very quickly because they have heard them so many times. And the police and prosecutors did decide to charge with murder here in Libby's case. And this is my main problem with PR that he does nothing but lie in a relentlessly self-serving way. So I have to side with police that this a very strong indicator that unless they come up with something that he cannot deny, PR - will - lie/deny.

Unfortunately in this case, unlike a lot of DV cases, where the body is usually found fairly quickly, there is medical evidence to contradict the lies. This is what Libby's case is missing, but I think we are expecting too much to have a clear cause of death where her body was in water for seven weeks. So we have to infer, we have to join the dots, police have joined their dots, rape, intentional assault leading to death, disposal of the victim's body in a way that benefits the accused massively. Or nearly did, PR. To me, it is hugely suggestive and very strong circumstantial evidence that her body ended up in the river. That the crime occurred and then Libby put herself in the river to me, is a huge "reach". The suicide theory to me is a non-starter, I have worked with a lot of suicidal people and I think it is incredibly unlikely.

Had Libby been found raped and dead in the park and had PR ever admitted (even in the third, fourth version of events) to the rape, but then maintained that he did not kill her, I might give a little consideration to that. But he has never stopped lying, showing the very typical psychology of this type of offender.

And he went straight home and started to destroy evidence................

And he returns to the crime scene........but no he didn't kill her, and didn't hide her body. Really?

Another thing I have learnt is to put almost no value on eye/ear witness testimony, it is incredibly unreliable, and timings can be erroneous. Violent assaults can happen much more quickly than we think. So of course they have to be considered. For what it's worth, the noises that were described as screams and that sounded "like desperation" sound like foxes to me. We will never know. Very subjective evidence.
Very few cases will give you enough evidence to put a "mental video" of the crime, second by second. It is totally unrealistic to expect this.
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Brilliant post @RosalindaA, you have really expressed exactly how I feel and I am shocked that quite so many people keep saying 'the timing of the screams don't add up', I don't expect them to!
 
Lyall0814 said:
Did you watch the excellent Danish series 'The Investigation', Rosalinda? It's been on the past three weeks, about the Kim Wall case. I knew nothing about the case but watching each episode unfold it seems to me that case resembles this one very closely. Completely different location for the crime (or crimes) of course but the police and prosecutors in each case have had to take a very similar path, because obtaining evidence was so difficult. It's an interesting comparison. The good news is that Wall's killer was convicted - eventually.
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Hi Lyall, I haven't watched the series, but I have heard of the case. I must admit it's such a horrifying case and Kim must have suffered so much that it's one of those that I find hard to read about. It's not much comfort but we can hope in Libby's case that whatever happened was quick. I probably will watch it at some point, when I'm feeling strong, as again it's good to watch skilled investigators "get their guy". I would say from what I know of the case, it illustrates another pretty sound principle, that if someone goes missing, especially a woman, that the last person (usually a man) known to be with her is probably your prime suspect 99.9% of the time.
And of course it helps when as in Kim's case when that man happens to be 100% crazy. I hope he never gets out.

I'm sure it has helped Libby's family that the police/CPS did not bottle out and went for murder. I think I (if I was legally able to?) would have also charged PR with kidnapping which would allow for another fairly hefty jail term and maybe compensate if the jury waters things down to manslaughter. They seemed confident that the jury would convict of murder. I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that PR's intent in putting/inviting/luring Libby into his car was to abduct and rape her. I feel sorry for police, I think they have really tried to advocate for Libby here, I can imagine they will feel slapped in the face if the jury reject murder. I should add that I am fully in favour of the jury taking their time and they know so much more than we do. But I think we cannot know exactly what PR did to Libby, he certainly will never tell the truth, his type never do. That shouldn't mean he gets away with it, a jury can infer to a certain extent.

And I agree with Steve that the law is not infallible. We change the law as society recognises that certain laws operate against justice. The rape laws and the sentencing at present here largely do not result in justice for the great majority of victims, ie women and children in the vast majority of cases. If rape happened frequently to men, the laws and sentencing would be different, no question. And what really angers me is the "commit one crime, get one free (or two or three)" approach to sentencing. I do not want to see any concurrent sentences for PR, it's an insult to all his victims.
 
Tuesday, Feb. 9th:
*Trial continues (Day 17)-VERDICT WATCH! (Day 4) (@ 10:30am UK) – UK – Liberty “Libby” Anna Squire (21) (last seen Jan. 31, 2019 outside Welly Club in Hull; found Mar. 20, 2019 from Grimsby Docks in the Humber Estuary) - *Pawel P. Relowicz (24/now 25) arrested (Feb. 6, 2019 on suspicion of abduction) officially charged (Oct. 30, 2019) with murder & rape. No plea entered yet. Not guilty plea entered on Jan. 12, 2021.
Trial began on Jan. 12, 2021. Trial will be in Sheffield. Richard Wright QC will lead, Mr. Woolfall prosecutor. Oliver Saxby QC for defense. Trial expected to last 6 weeks. Jury: 5 men & 7 women. Day 1 (4/2/21) of deliberations: 2 hours. Day 2 (5/2/21) of deliberations: 5 ½ hours. Day 3 (8/2/21) of deliberations: 5 hours 15 mins. Total deliberations: 12 hours 45 mins. (Reporter has 10 hours of deliberations).
Was originally charged (18/3/19 & 10/5/19) with 5 counts of burglary, 4 counts of voyeurism, 3 counts of outraging public decency & 1 count of receiving stolen goods. On Aug. 12, 2019 plead guilty to 9 charges including voyeurism (4 counts), outraging public decency (2 counts) & burglary (3 counts). Relowicz jailed for 8½ years.
Trial Day 1-15 & Deliberations (12/1/21 - 5/2/21) reference post #849 here:
VERDICT WATCH - UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24
Feb 8th Monday, Day 16 of Verdict Watch (Day 3): All jury members have now arrived so it looks like they can continue to consider their verdict. Justice Lambert says she will “keep an eye on the weather” and jurors will have an earlier finish today. Deliberations started 10:30am. At 3:45pm: No verdicts coming today. Jury has now been sent home for the day & will continue their deliberations from 10.30am tomorrow, 9/2/21.
 
RosalindaA said:
It would be so interesting to be a fly on the wall with this jury. I wonder if their discussion reflects ours or is sticking on other points. I think, as others have said, it's probably the murder/manslaughter choice that is troubling for them, I can see why some might have difficulty with interpreting these definitions.

I think we all evolve (hopefully) here as we learn more and follow more cases. I can remember when I was a teenager/early 20s when I knew nothing about "domestic" violence I would see the husband saying, well I pushed her and she just happened to smash her skull on something sharp. Then after seeing that strangely, so many dead wives and girlfriends seemed to do this that they must have some sort of magnet in their heads that attracted them to sharp objects, it dawned on me that "this was not what was really happening here".

Like the so-called "rough sex" defence (that I think is supposed to be disallowed in the UK now?), that there are so many women that really love being thrown down stairs, strangled, body-slammed against a wall, so erotic, I know all my friends talk about how much we enjoy this....

What I'm trying to say is that I suppose there are stock lies that it is pretty safe to disbelieve because they are so self-serving and police recognise them very quickly because they have heard them so many times. And the police and prosecutors did decide to charge with murder here in Libby's case. And this is my main problem with PR that he does nothing but lie in a relentlessly self-serving way. So I have to side with police that this a very strong indicator that unless they come up with something that he cannot deny, PR - will - lie/deny.

Unfortunately in this case, unlike a lot of DV cases, where the body is usually found fairly quickly, there is medical evidence to contradict the lies. This is what Libby's case is missing, but I think we are expecting too much to have a clear cause of death where her body was in water for seven weeks. So we have to infer, we have to join the dots, police have joined their dots, rape, intentional assault leading to death, disposal of the victim's body in a way that benefits the accused massively. Or nearly did, PR. To me, it is hugely suggestive and very strong circumstantial evidence that her body ended up in the river. That the crime occurred and then Libby put herself in the river to me, is a huge "reach". The suicide theory to me is a non-starter, I have worked with a lot of suicidal people and I think it is incredibly unlikely.

Had Libby been found raped and dead in the park and had PR ever admitted (even in the third, fourth version of events) to the rape, but then maintained that he did not kill her, I might give a little consideration to that. But he has never stopped lying, showing the very typical psychology of this type of offender.

And he went straight home and started to destroy evidence................

And he returns to the crime scene........but no he didn't kill her, and didn't hide her body. Really?

Another thing I have learnt is to put almost no value on eye/ear witness testimony, it is incredibly unreliable, and timings can be erroneous. Violent assaults can happen much more quickly than we think. So of course they have to be considered. For what it's worth, the noises that were described as screams and that sounded "like desperation" sound like foxes to me. We will never know. Very subjective evidence.
Very few cases will give you enough evidence to put a "mental video" of the crime, second by second. It is totally unrealistic to expect this.
Click to expand...
Really brilliant post. It's exactly what I think too. That you cannot focus on one piece of evidence. The whole night is important.
 
Lyall0814 said:
Did you watch the excellent Danish series 'The Investigation', Rosalinda? It's been on the past three weeks, about the Kim Wall case. I knew nothing about the case but watching each episode unfold it seems to me that case resembles this one very closely. Completely different location for the crime (or crimes) of course but the police and prosecutors in each case have had to take a very similar path, because obtaining evidence was so difficult. It's an interesting comparison. The good news is that Wall's killer was convicted - eventually.
Click to expand...

Great comparison - Peter Madsen changed his ludicrous defence to fit every new piece of evidence that was found. For instance he started out saying that the hatch hit Kim's head, but when her poor head was found without fractures, the cause became poisoning from fumes. Yet they couldn't hold his changing stories against him, it was his right.

I recently read Kim Wall's biography by her mum Ingrid (also a journalist). It's very detailed and dignified and has two interweaving timelines - the story of Kim's life (amazing in its own right) alongside the story of the disappearance, subsequent investigation and trial. Gradually and ominously, Kim's timeline catches up with the other. An unfathomable crime and the one that brought me here. Agree the series is excellent.
 
Its not the timing of the screams that give me personally the doubts, its the lack of physical time and the distances that has to be covered plus acts committed. I think many people also feel this.
I also had an interesting conversation with another person yesterday, who very much doubted the timescales being possible, who suggested to me that, if it were their daughter and given it isn't possible for us to know what did actually happen. If, just if PR wasn't responsible for her death at his hand, would you really want to live out your days, imagining a painful, terrifying attack as her last moments on earth, or would you rather have the knowledge that it was a tragic accident (misadventure) and it made me think for a moment about why I wanted him to be guilty so much?
( Edited to clarify they were talking directly in regards to Murder and not in relation to rape.)
I have every faith that the good men and women of the jury will come to the right verdict in the case, whatever that should be. It is them who have sworn the oath and heard ALL of the evidence of course. I'm sure they as much as us, want Justice done for Libby and PR punished for what ever crimes he has committed.
 
RosalindaA said:
I think I (if I was legally able to?) would have also charged PR with kidnapping which would allow for another fairly hefty jail term and maybe compensate if the jury waters things down to manslaughter.
Click to expand...

I’ve been wondering about the decision not to include abduction/kidnapping as a separate charge. My interpretation of CPS guidance to prosecute is where abduction took place in order to facilitate sexual assault, it’s better to go with the substantive charge, in this case rape. This is to a) make case easier to present for clarity b)if minimum sentences run concurrently, the kidnap offence attracts less custodial time than the rape offence so doesn’t add any more to a minimum term. Removing/isolating a victim to commit a sexual crime is an aggravating factor, which, taken with other aggravating factors can increase the totality of the rape charge thereby allowing extension of sentence for the rape. If the kidnap occurred over 2 or more days, that would attract a greater minimum term & more likely to incur a separate charge.

My interpretation MOO based on skim reading/no legal background
 
10:14
Little snow in Sheffield

This is the scene at Sheffield Crown Court this morning.

0_sheff-court2.jpg


There is no official word on whether the jury members have all arrived and will continue their deliberations but it doesn't look bad weather-wise.

Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury out for fourth day
 
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