GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[MsMiniSleuth]

Found this.........

Defence barrister questioning Relowicz's neighbour
Neighbour Mr Thornton is being questioned by Oliver Saxby QC, mitigating, who says he wants to “clarify a few things.”

Mr Saxby has asked Mr Thornton to clarify if he recognises the man as the man who lives at number 24 as in his police statement he said he “assumed” the man who was cleaning his car lived at number 24.

Mr Thornton said: “No, I recognised him as the man who was arrested on the 6th and that’s when I called the police and told them.”

Mr Saxby has asked: “Have you put two and two together and come up with five? You say about the date, I accept that but my question is that so far as saying it was him cleaning his car do you think you might have that wrong?”

Mr Thornton has said: “No.

Libby Squire trial live: Updates from court

ETA.....
Those who are innocent lie 'due to a childish fear they will not be believed', defence says
Mr Saxby is now talking about Mr Thornton, who says he saw Relowicz cleaning his car.

He said: “When he is convinced he saw the man from 24 cleaning his car, Pawel Relowicz’s car, we know was around the corner - we know that from the CCTV.

“That is an example of a theory that he killed Libby Squire and is supported by a set of theories that Sam Alford saw him getting into his car, and that he asphyxiated Libby - even though it couldn’t be proved how she was killed.

“The theory that Mr Thornton saw him cleaning his car can not stand up because his car was not there.

“What this case revolves around is not his bad character or the lies he has told about his past convictions, his problem.

“No doubt those who are guilty lie, but so do those who are innocent due to a childish fear that they will not be believed.”

Pawel Relowicz is giving his account of what happened to Libby - updates

So it was or WAS NOT PR cleaning his car, or someone else cleaning their car, or he had seen PR cleaning his car on another day.

Sometimes witnesses are just not 100% reliable in their memory recall.

 

[C.greek]

How many rape victims are left right by a river in the dark? and who are extremely vulnerable and are struggling with walking etc?

I'd imagine quite a few rape victims would be left in dangerous environments? No idea about the statistics but if indeed PR left Libby in such a terrible state alive close to the river after having caused her serious bodily harm, shouldn't this be manslaughter?

 

[C.greek]

So it was or WAS NOT PR cleaning his car, or someone else cleaning their car, or he had seen PR cleaning his car on another day.

Sometimes witnesses are just not 100% reliable in their memory recall.

He recognised him as the man who was arrested and it occurred to him he had seen him in such a strange time (freezing cold) to be cleaning his car. This is what I get out of this but the way defence put it was to confuse the jury imo. Also we need to find the cctv mention directly from the police officer!!

 

[Deleted member 239019]

I'd imagine quite a few rape victims would be left in dangerous environments? No idea about the statistics but if indeed PR left Libby in such a terrible state alive close to the river after having caused her serious bodily harm, shouldn't this be manslaughter?

The screams where heard 150 yards north of the house on oak playing fields though sounds as though the attack was more closer to the light than the river

 

[Inspector No Clueso]

I don't know if I've done this correctly as I have just signed up and can't see how to post other than post reply (sorry for ineptitude) but I decided to join you, as I have watched this from the start, so if I have replied to someone unintentionally, I just hope they are patient. My interest stems from the fact that my son was doing his post-grad at the time and living on Beresford near the OR end and prior to that had lived on Heathcote for 2 years so I know the streets well but not ORPF. Needless to say, he and his friends have all been deeply upset by this.
For what it is worth and I'll say MOO now, I envisage a scenario where she simply lay there after this horrific violation totally unable to run towards the river or anywhere else. Dopey from the cold, befuddled from the drink and in shock from the assault how could the poor girl even start to process what had happened? Maybe the flight/escape response could be to fall asleep/ lose consciousness to make it all go away. And that is how he left her possibly closer to the river than he has stated as he took her as far from safety as he could.
And maybe the reason he returned, having got himself reinflated by watching *advertiser censored* in the bath, was to rape her again as, in his mind, there was a good chance she was still lying where he left her.
But he found her unresponsive and therefore unable to give him the reaction that he needs from his victims so he disposed of her and ended up having to relieve himself in the street.
Sorry if I have made a mess of this post but I felt I wanted to join you now in the hope that tomorrow brings some justice.

 

[JosieJo]

Hi. Have been reading some of the posts on here because I live in Hull when I'm not at uni. I'd just like to say I know the park well. I walk the dog there. I don't have any issues with the timing at all. No issues with the 7.5 minutes and none with the 4.5 minutes. There isn't a reason for anyone to be in the park at that time of night in the middle of winter. How many rape victims conveniently fall in rivers?

How many rape victims are left right by a river in the dark? and who are extremely vulnerable and are struggling with walking etc?

I'd imagine quite a few rape victims would be left in dangerous environments? No idea about the statistics but if indeed PR left Libby in such a terrible state alive close to the river after having caused her serious bodily harm, shouldn't this be manslaughter?

This is the problem for me ... if a woman was raped and she was not confused , disoriented, hypothermic, unable to walk without falling or swerving etc ...and making rational decisions id say exactly the same .. why would I think she would end up in the river? And immediately I would " be sure" he put her in there.

Here though we have been shown lots of evidence of all of the above things in libby that night..and its the prosecution case that it was at the area of the park close to the river she was raped

So in this particular case its not really relevant to say ..."how many rape victims happen to be found dead in the river"

Regarding the manslaughter if he attacked and left her there...personally I think it would be ...but there has been a lot of logical discussion previously around this as if he left her alive after purely rape when does his level of responsibility end

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I don't know if I've done this correctly as I have just signed up and can't see how to post other than post reply (sorry for ineptitude) but I decided to join you, as I have watched this from the start, so if I have replied to someone unintentionally, I just hope they are patient. My interest stems from the fact that my son was doing his post-grad at the time and living on Beresford near the OR end and prior to that had lived on Heathcote for 2 years so I know the streets well but not ORPF. Needless to say, he and his friends have all been deeply upset by this.
For what it is worth and I'll say MOO now, I envisage a scenario where she simply lay there after this horrific violation totally unable to run towards the river or anywhere else. Dopey from the cold, befuddled from the drink and in shock from the assault how could the poor girl even start to process what had happened? Maybe the flight/escape response could be to fall asleep/ lose consciousness to make it all go away. And that is how he left her possibly closer to the river than he has stated as he took her as far from safety as he could.
And maybe the reason he returned, having got himself reinflated by watching *advertiser censored* in the bath, was to rape her again as, in his mind, there was a good chance she was still lying where he left her.
But he found her unresponsive and therefore unable to give him the reaction that he needs from his victims so he disposed of her and ended up having to relieve himself in the street.
Sorry if I have made a mess of this post but I felt I wanted to join you now in the hope that tomorrow brings some justice.

Welcome to WS @Inspector No Clueso! Love your name!
Edit- spelling

 

[Lyall0814]

How many rape victims are left right by a river in the dark? and who are extremely vulnerable and are struggling with walking etc?

If this was the case he still wouldn't deserve any benefit of the doubt. He chose to go out that night to stalk women (for three hours?). He then chose to stalk Libby. He then chose to be violent. When you've made that decision you deserve to be held responsible for the consequences of the events you have put in motion. He's not the victim of that night's events. I don't how see he deserves any consideration.

Would you feel the same about the 7.5 minutes (plus 4.5) if he was a soldier, or fireman, or athlete?
We don't know his exact level of fitness but he was definitely a lot fitter than most to be doing the job he was.

 

[C.greek]

This is the problem for me ... if a woman was raped and she was not confused , disoriented, hypothermic, unable to walk without falling or swerving etc ...and making rational decisions id say exactly the same .. why would I think she would end up in the river? And immediately I would " be sure" he put her in there.

Here though we have been shown lots of evidence of all of the above things in libby that night

Snipped for focus: we have also the evidence from an expert medic that she would be unable to walk because of hypothermia as you mention. So it would be pretty hard for her to move i'd imagine especially after such a terrifying ordeal. Jmo hence he put her in the river

 

[Inspector No Clueso]

Welcome to WS @Inspector No Clueso! Love you name!

Thanks. I'm just glad it appeared where it was meant to and I didn't end up ordering a garden gnome on Amazon. I really shouldn't do technology at stupid o' clock when I have to be up at even stupider o' clock but thanks for the warm welcome and I will get better than this. Promise.

 

[JosieJo]

Snipped for focus: we have also the evidence from an expert medic that she would be unable to walk because of hypothermia as you mention. So it would be pretty hard for her to move i'd imagine especially after such a terrifying ordeal. Jmo hence he put her in the river

He didn't actually say she wouldn't be able to walk ..he said she would worsen over time ...
She was attacked only 10 min or so after she walked to his car ..part of this time would have been spent in a warmer car

For me personally i can't say that 15 min or so after walking to a car she wasn't able to walk towards the river ...after all we know the rape was also likely quick

 

[JosieJo]

If this was the case he still wouldn't deserve any benefit of the doubt. He chose to go out that night to stalk women (for three hours?). He then chose to stalk Libby. He then chose to be violent. When you've made that decision you deserve to be held responsible for the consequences of the events you have put in motion. He's not the victim of that night's events. I don't how see he deserves any consideration.

Would you feel the same about the 7.5 minutes (plus 4.5) if he was a soldier, or fireman, or athlete?
We don't know his exact level of fitness but he was definitely a lot fitter than most to be doing the job he was.

I've not ever said he is not responsible for her death in some way or another ... but no matter how vile or perverted or even dangerous he might be ...the law still requires his level of involvement to be proven by the prosecution and classified correctly

I feel no matter how fit a person is the fact that that persons car pulls up at 12 .11hrs and his car arrives back home at 12.22hrs I would have to consider that tight

 

[C.greek]

He didn't actually say she wouldn't be able to walk ..he said she would worsen over time ...
She was attacked only 10 min or so after she walked to his car ..part of this time would have been spent in a warmer car

For me personally i can't say that 15 min or so after walking to a car she wasn't able to walk towards the river ...after all we know the rape was also likely quick

Temp differences don't help though in hypothermia(i mean from -2 to a warmish car and out again in -2). In any case what i wanted to say was that the rape must have been a terrible ordeal for her which wouldn't possibly leave her with the strength to stand up. We saw in cctv that already before the rape she needed help to stand up when she fell. Why all of a sudden would she be able to stand up on her own and walk to the river? Especially considering she was raped on top of all other things that were happening to her body because of alcohol and the cold?

 

[Deleted member 239019]

I know many in question are caught or seen returning to a crime scene but so soon, such short time after the assault, after a rape and knowing she screamed so loud it echoed across the fields, he himself fleeing so fast he was seen looking rushed and asif purposely not to turn back ..... doesnt sound like he left her alive to me just my opinion.

 

[JosieJo]

Temp differences don't help though in hypothermia(i mean from -2 to a warmish car and out again in -2). In any case what i wanted to say was that the rape must have been a terrible ordeal for her which wouldn't possibly leave her with the strength to stand up. We saw in cctv that already before the rape she needed help to stand up when she fell. Why all of a sudden would she be able to stand up on her own and walk to the river? Especially considering she was raped on top of all other things that were happening to her body because of alcohol and the cold?

We have no way of knowing if 15 mins later she was still able to walk or not though ..so remains a real possibility imo

 

[C.greek]

We have no way of knowing if 15 mins later she was still able to walk or not though ..so remains a real possibility imo

How about standing up though?

 

[JosieJo]

I know many in question are caught or seen returning to a crime scene but so soon, such short time after the assault, after a rape and knowing she screamed so loud it echoed across the fields, he himself fleeing so fast he was seen looking rushed and asif purposely not to turn back ..... doesnt sound like he left her alive to me just my opinion.

I agree to an extent but he would still be getting out the park as quick as possible if he had raped her and left

 

[JosieJo]

How about standing up though?

Again we have no reason to think she could definitely not stand up

 

[C.greek]

Again we have no reason to think she could definitely not stand up

We have the cctv evidence from before the rape and the statements of many witnesses by which we could infer she wasn't able to stand up on her own unless helped.
ETA I am weaving this as I read and think more jmo
ETA 2 I hope the jurors are doing the same!

 

[Deleted member 239019]

I've not ever said he is not responsible for her death in some way or another ... but no matter how vile or perverted or even dangerous he might be ...the law still requires his level of involvement to be proven by the prosecution and classified correctly

I feel no matter how fit a person is the fact that that persons car pulls up at 12 .11hrs and his car arrives back home at 12.22hrs I would have to consider that tight

I thought he was
Parking at 12.11
Back in car by 12.19
Pulling out and turning left onto bev road 12.20 he then incates right.
Hes only got to go down Cottingham road which his indicators say he did straight down (Newland Ave my opinion) onto Raglan st his address...done ...

5 mins on a bicycle the roads looked empty that night to in the days its usually busy. So hopefully the jury will have been informed of the distance and the fact there was hardly any traffic that night.