Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

[Dotrat]

The blue jackets turned in was interesting to me. Made me wonder how they knew each one wasn't THE one.

Maybe one of the girls was able to tear a piece from it and it was found at the scene, making it distinguishable if turned in. MOO

 

[Spartygirl]

The blue jackets turned in was interesting to me. Made me wonder how they knew each one wasn't THE one.

Yes, I find that very interesting also.

 

[Tricia]

Hey Websleuths Members,
Is anyone from AZ who can talk about how you followed this story and the frustrations along the way? This would have been during the search for TYLEE AND JJ.
If so PLEASE EMAIL ME AT triciastruecrimeradio@gmail.com
It is important.

 

[janewall]

As of a few days ago, TL told the Carroll County Comet that he still doesn't know who the voice belongs to, though it still seems familiar. Here's the relevant quote from that article:

Q. You have said you recognize the voice on the video. Do you recognize it as a jail inmate, other law enforcement team or person you know outside your employment sphere?

A. I still have not been able to pin it down. In my 30+ year career or even, as with most of us, we have heard certain voices but have difficulty in recalling exactly who it is.

It could be helpful if TL were hypnotized and the recording played for him.

 

[sunshineray]

There are quite a few little nuggets in this interview, some of which we have not actually discussed here yet.

The interview is with the reporter/producer of the DTH podcast as well as Dr. Casey Jordan, criminologist. HLN viewers were asked to submit questions. Here are some of the interesting things discussed - this is all paraphrased from what the reporters and experts said and their opinions. If you want to skim, look for the items in italics:


Does the case need a fresh set of eyes? The investigators working on the case have told the DTH reporters that they ask other people to look at the file and give opinions on what they might have missed, and they’ve done this many times. "Nobody is too proud to ask for help." They have and will take the file to anyone else at another agency who agrees to take a look. Carter has told the reporters that they have gone all the way back to the beginning multiple times. There are other agencies who are helping with the case file. The FBI was involved from the beginning and continues to offer up every resource they have. Every test, every resource that they've needed has been given by the FBI. Investigators presented this case to an entire class of agents at Quantico to try to get ideas. Maybe getting more outside criminologists or behavioralists who’ve worked other cases and can look at it from a behavioral rather than evidentiary standpoint would be a good thing. Many cases are solved because a person remembers something four or five years later but keeping it in the media is the best hope.


Is the killer watching the documentaries? Yes, definitely, according to the criminologist. She doesn't think he has killed before. But if the news continues to cover this, it will put a damper on his fantasies, might lead to a change in the trajectory that could lead to a repeat of that pattern, the fantasy of abduction and so on. The news coverage chills his future thought pattern because it reminds him he can get caught. If he is still fantasizing about hurting little girls, things like the DTH podcast may be stopping it. Carter engages in dialog with the killer. He is speaking directly to him. The reporters think that on some level LE were waiting for some kind of response. One reporter asked Carter directly if the killer has responded or sought communication with LE and at that time he said he didn't think so. But maybe he will do so in the future, and investigators are ready for it.

Genealogical DNA - LE confirmed to reporters that they do have DNA. They don't say what kind or if it's a full profile. TL says that they are aware of investigative genetic genealogy technology and at this time have decided to stick with other testing. We don’t know the state of the DNA, or if the profile is complete. At the time of the last presser, in the opinion of the experts LE had certainly had time to run all the DNA tests that they could do. She wishes they were more forthcoming about what they are doing with DNA but understands why they don’t say more.

Why didn’t the girls run? We don’t know what happened from the south end of the bridge to where they were found. They may have run. One of the things that led investigators to the body was the black Nike shoe that Libby had been wearing so it's entirely plausible that it came off of her foot in an escape effort. The families have expressed their belief that Abby and Libby were very close and neither would have left the other. One reporter feels based on his knowledge of the video that there was a decision to go through this together. He’s not going to say whether it’s Abby or Libby who made this decision.

Have police searched and tried to match the signatures at the scene with other crimes in the area? Think of signatures as something, not necessarily unique, but specific to the culprit and it reflects - criminologists sometimes call it “leakage” - the inner workings of their brain. Sometimes we call it ritual but that’s not a good word because it speaks to exact repetition, which signatures are not. There is an amount of behavioral satisfaction or arousal that offenders are getting that leads them to behave in certain ways before, during and after the crime. This is very often sexual. Police admit they have two or three things they would characterize as signatures that are specific to that offender that you could expect to see repeated in future crimes. They are afraid of tainting the prosecution’s ability to prosecute the case if they let the information out. But you can be sure that they are consulting with criminologists and the FBI to try to ascertain what the signatures mean and they are certainly looking for them to appear in similar crimes. If this was the first homicide this perpetrator committed, then these signatures were things that emerged during this event and if he doesn’t go on to commit another homicide like this, you may not see them repeated. It’s difficult to get information from other agencies. Not all violent crimes are represented in VICAP. Of the 18,000 law agencies in America only 1400 are using VICAP. Personnel have to be devoted to maintaining the database and most agencies do not have the manpower.

What type of evidence could police be hiding? They have to have holdbacks. They want to make sure that when they get the perpetrator, that person will be saying unique things that have not been out in the public. They say the video is not as long as people think it is. The sheriff says its not anywhere near 8 minutes long. The suspect says no other words on it. They are still doing testing on the cell phone and video. They are exploring items within the video. A lot of blue jackets have been turned in and LE has said they don’t have THE blue jacket yet. Usually cause of death is not a holdback. Why is it held back in this case? Possibly the COD has a connection to the signature. Maybe they weren’t both killed the same way. The behavioralist says if LE wanted to let one piece of information out, it should be COD.

Who are the witnesses? Witnesses are not speaking to the press. The trails were not completely isolated. People were walking the trails that day. There are primary witnesses who’ve enabled the sketches. We only have a vague understanding of who they are. There is a tangible fear considering the guy is still on the loose. Did anyone speak to the suspect? We understand that a young witness, still in high school, may have said a few words to the suspect. He said a few words to her and she was able to turn around and go in another direction. We don’t know how long he was out there looking for victims, or if he had been there in days prior. We don’t know where he came from or went to when he was done.

Did he know the girls? The reporters have not uncovered any evidence that he knew them. It’s a small town so maybe he or his family knew of the girls, doesn’t mean they knew each other. The reporters' belief is that he didn't know them. The behavioralist doesn’t believe he knew them at all. She thinks LE should look at people who lived in this area over the last twenty years. Did he hang out there for days? The reporters believe that everything was set - location, time, etc. - and the only thing that wasn’t set was the identity of the victims.

Who would cover for him? Someone probably knows some critical piece of information but doesn't yet realize they know it.

I've snipped and bolded for focus. and will watched this in full later. Thanks for posting.

You wrote paraphrasing, "One reporter asked Carter directly if the killer has responded or sought communication with LE and at that time he [Carter] said he didn't think so. But maybe he will do so in the future, and investigators are ready for it."

Did Carter actually answer with the somewhat ambiguous, "I don't think so"? If those were his words, that could lead me to speculate there has been communication of some sort. ISP Carter may just be "playing dumb", for lack of a different phrase, to entice more communication? I don't know, just interesting.



"Genealogical DNA - TL says that they are aware of investigative genetic genealogy technology and at this time have decided to stick with other testing."

It was TL who said back in late Dec 2018...
“We sent more evidence to the FBI at Quantico just before Christmas,” Sheriff Leazenby told Radar in an exclusive interview and said they were doing “DNA testing research,” with regards to the case.'

This all makes me wonder what additional "research" TL was talking about being done in Dec 2018 if it wasnt trying to map a reverse family tree from DNA? What just general things like race, age, eye and hair color?


"What type of evidence could police be hiding?
The suspect says no other words on it [the video]."

Wow, everyone waited 2 years to hear the one and only other word the killer spoke while being recorded? Did Libby's recording stop right after the killer spoke the words, "Down the hill"? Once down the hill, wherever that hill exactly was, the killer would of had to continue with directions of some sort with two very scared young teen girls. Either he just gestured his commands at the bottom of the hill or Libby's recording had already stopped.

"Who are the witnesses? We understand that a young witness, still in high school, may have said a few words to the suspect. He said a few words to her and she was able to turn around and go in another direction. We don’t know how long he was out there looking for victims, or if he had been there in days prior."

This is so very upsetting to hear, praying for this young person, many reasons why.

 

[sandy_80]

we need an expert opinion on whether cleaning a very unclear audio would actually change the voice..

 

[Yemelyan]

I've snipped and bolded for focus. and will watched this in full later. Thanks for posting.

You wrote paraphrasing, "One reporter asked Carter directly if the killer has responded or sought communication with LE and at that time he [Carter] said he didn't think so. But maybe he will do so in the future, and investigators are ready for it."

Did Carter actually answer with the somewhat ambiguous, "I don't think so"? If those were his words, that could lead me to speculate there has been communication of some sort. ISP Carter may just be "playing dumb", for lack of a different phrase, to entice more communication? I don't know, just interesting.

.

Yes, just to clarify for those who may not watch...Carter isn't in this interview, in essence the reporters are repeating a conversation they had with him on this topic, in their own words. According to them, upon being asked if the offender has communicated with LE, Carter responded that he doesn't think so.

On the subject of the words on the video, it could be that other things were said by the killer but what we've heard is the only thing clear enough for them to actually share.

I forgot to include the information that one reporter in the quoted interview stated he reached out to a person who is a forensic audio specialist for the FBI and was told that in that expert's opinion, the four words of the killer are NOT enough to determine age or regional dialect with certainty.

 

[Snoop Sister]

I think the descriptions of the murder scene are confusing due to where the speaker is from.

The county I grew up in is mostly flat; we would likely describe the murder scene as 'that flat spot at the bottom of those steep hills'. We don't have gorges but we may have a few ravines.

Good point. Now that I think about it..I have mostly lived in a very large city and I had never known what a ravine was/is but I knew what a culvert was though and a gully

 

[StarryStarryNight]

There are quite a few little nuggets in this interview, some of which we have not actually discussed here yet.

The interview is with the reporter/producer of the DTH podcast as well as Dr. Casey Jordan, criminologist. HLN viewers were asked to submit questions. Here are some of the interesting things discussed - this is all paraphrased from what the reporters and experts said and their opinions. If you want to skim, look for the items in italics:


Does the case need a fresh set of eyes? The investigators working on the case have told the DTH reporters that they ask other people to look at the file and give opinions on what they might have missed, and they’ve done this many times. "Nobody is too proud to ask for help." They have and will take the file to anyone else at another agency who agrees to take a look. Carter has told the reporters that they have gone all the way back to the beginning multiple times. There are other agencies who are helping with the case file. The FBI was involved from the beginning and continues to offer up every resource they have. Every test, every resource that they've needed has been given by the FBI. Investigators presented this case to an entire class of agents at Quantico to try to get ideas. Maybe getting more outside criminologists or behavioralists who’ve worked other cases and can look at it from a behavioral rather than evidentiary standpoint would be a good thing. Many cases are solved because a person remembers something four or five years later but keeping it in the media is the best hope.


Is the killer watching the documentaries? Yes, definitely, according to the criminologist. She doesn't think he has killed before. But if the news continues to cover this, it will put a damper on his fantasies, might lead to a change in the trajectory that could lead to a repeat of that pattern, the fantasy of abduction and so on. The news coverage chills his future thought pattern because it reminds him he can get caught. If he is still fantasizing about hurting little girls, things like the DTH podcast may be stopping it. Carter engages in dialog with the killer. He is speaking directly to him. The reporters think that on some level LE were waiting for some kind of response. One reporter asked Carter directly if the killer has responded or sought communication with LE and at that time he said he didn't think so. But maybe he will do so in the future, and investigators are ready for it.

Genealogical DNA - LE confirmed to reporters that they do have DNA. They don't say what kind or if it's a full profile. TL says that they are aware of investigative genetic genealogy technology and at this time have decided to stick with other testing. We don’t know the state of the DNA, or if the profile is complete. At the time of the last presser, in the opinion of the experts LE had certainly had time to run all the DNA tests that they could do. She wishes they were more forthcoming about what they are doing with DNA but understands why they don’t say more.

Why didn’t the girls run? We don’t know what happened from the south end of the bridge to where they were found. They may have run. One of the things that led investigators to the body was the black Nike shoe that Libby had been wearing so it's entirely plausible that it came off of her foot in an escape effort. The families have expressed their belief that Abby and Libby were very close and neither would have left the other. One reporter feels based on his knowledge of the video that there was a decision to go through this together. He’s not going to say whether it’s Abby or Libby who made this decision.

Have police searched and tried to match the signatures at the scene with other crimes in the area? Think of signatures as something, not necessarily unique, but specific to the culprit and it reflects - criminologists sometimes call it “leakage” - the inner workings of their brain. Sometimes we call it ritual but that’s not a good word because it speaks to exact repetition, which signatures are not. There is an amount of behavioral satisfaction or arousal that offenders are getting that leads them to behave in certain ways before, during and after the crime. This is very often sexual. Police admit they have two or three things they would characterize as signatures that are specific to that offender that you could expect to see repeated in future crimes. They are afraid of tainting the prosecution’s ability to prosecute the case if they let the information out. But you can be sure that they are consulting with criminologists and the FBI to try to ascertain what the signatures mean and they are certainly looking for them to appear in similar crimes. If this was the first homicide this perpetrator committed, then these signatures were things that emerged during this event and if he doesn’t go on to commit another homicide like this, you may not see them repeated. It’s difficult to get information from other agencies. Not all violent crimes are represented in VICAP. Of the 18,000 law agencies in America only 1400 are using VICAP. Personnel have to be devoted to maintaining the database and most agencies do not have the manpower.

What type of evidence could police be hiding? They have to have holdbacks. They want to make sure that when they get the perpetrator, that person will be saying unique things that have not been out in the public. They say the video is not as long as people think it is. The sheriff says its not anywhere near 8 minutes long. The suspect says no other words on it. They are still doing testing on the cell phone and video. They are exploring items within the video. A lot of blue jackets have been turned in and LE has said they don’t have THE blue jacket yet. Usually cause of death is not a holdback. Why is it held back in this case? Possibly the COD has a connection to the signature. Maybe they weren’t both killed the same way. The behavioralist says if LE wanted to let one piece of information out, it should be COD.

Who are the witnesses? Witnesses are not speaking to the press. The trails were not completely isolated. People were walking the trails that day. There are primary witnesses who’ve enabled the sketches. We only have a vague understanding of who they are. There is a tangible fear considering the guy is still on the loose. Did anyone speak to the suspect? We understand that a young witness, still in high school, may have said a few words to the suspect. He said a few words to her and she was able to turn around and go in another direction. We don’t know how long he was out there looking for victims, or if he had been there in days prior. We don’t know where he came from or went to when he was done.

Did he know the girls? The reporters have not uncovered any evidence that he knew them. It’s a small town so maybe he or his family knew of the girls, doesn’t mean they knew each other. The reporters' belief is that he didn't know them. The behavioralist doesn’t believe he knew them at all. She thinks LE should look at people who lived in this area over the last twenty years. Did he hang out there for days? The reporters believe that everything was set - location, time, etc. - and the only thing that wasn’t set was the identity of the victims.

Who would cover for him? Someone probably knows some critical piece of information but doesn't yet realize they know it.

This is great info! Thanks for this!
It sounds to me like they are looking for a serial killer.

 

[Yemelyan]

This is great info! Thanks for this!
It sounds to me like they are looking for a serial killer.

I agree, sounds like at the very least they are concerned he could become one eventually.

I'm glad you found it helpful, @StarryStarryNight, I hoped you'd read the part about "fresh eyes" and see how open to review they reportedly are and feel some relief.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Good point. Now that I think about it..I have mostly lived in a very large city and I had never known what a ravine was/is but I knew what a culvert was though and a gully

We had lots of culverts, too. And a ton of ditches (convenient places to dump bodies)

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I was on TikTok and saved a video On 2/3. Anyway, I went back through my saved videos, and came across this one that I cannot upload but want to share because the man looks just like BG, imho.
I don’t know what to do.

 

[Angels27]

Important Legal Question:


In the state of Indiana if LE has the DNA of the perp from crime scene and has obtained the DNA under the table and without consent (say like from POI’s disguarded trash or a toothbrush or hair strand) and there is a match, (not yet made public) can they use this match in court? And if not, what steps would they need to take to make certain they can eventually bring this bit of evidence to trial legally in future?

Or maybe that evidence alone isn’t enough for a clean conviction?, and so they are just waiting for more evidence to heap on top of it to make sure they get a conviction since they only get one shot in court. Does this ever occur?

 

[Yemelyan]

Important Legal Question:


In the state of Indiana if LE has the DNA of the perp from crime scene and has obtained the DNA under the table and without consent (say like from POI’s disguarded trash or a toothbrush or hair strand) and there is a match, (not yet made public) can they use this match in court? And if not, what steps would they need to take to make certain they can eventually bring this bit of evidence to trial legally in future?

Or maybe that evidence alone isn’t enough for a clean conviction?, and so they are just waiting for more evidence to heap on top of it to make sure they get a conviction since they only get one shot in court. Does this ever occur?

My understanding of this issue is that Indiana requires a probable cause warrant for covert DNA collection, like from a suspect's trash. If a covert DNA collection revealed a match between the DNA sample and DNA from the crime scene, investigators could bring a suspect in for questioning and submit a warrant for a regular DNA sample to be taken and compared. This traditional sample would be the one officially used in court but LE would be required to show that the information they used to obtain the warrants was all true and accurate.

If you'd like to see how this worked in an Indiana case, you can read up on the April Tinsley murder: Tinsley detectives reveal new details about case, suspect

In that case, a DNA profile from the victim's body and some associated communications was sent to Parabon, who did investigative genetic genealogy using open public databases. They created a family tree that identified two brothers as potential POIs. This information was essentially treated like a tip that enabled LE to get a warrant for a covert trash pull for the more likely of the two men. They obtained 3 used condoms in his trash that had DNA consistent with the profile from the crimes. They used this to bring him in for questioning and before they could make any other investigative moves, he confessed fully.

His case did not go before a jury as he accepted a guilty plea.

 

[OverTheRhine]

we need an expert opinion on whether cleaning a very unclear audio would actually change the voice..

Its really hard to say. I've been mixing and mastering audio for a while. To me, it doesn't sound heavily affected by their processing. It just soundS amplified. You still get plenty of frequency range. I truly believe its an accurate representation. I'd compare it to being able to recognize someone's voice you know on an old answering machine.

 

[No it's not]

So, I've been following since they were missing. When they were found, it was reported that there were footprints near the water that led them to the location. I mentioned how much info will be gotten from that! Shoe size. Which direction. Type of shoes. Maybe even weight, due to impression depth..... then, silence. It wasn't talked about any more. The info was in a news article. Not Facebook rumor. I have tried to look at my old posts, but I couldn't get that far back. So, yes. There was definitely footprints reported at/ near the scene, early on.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...-bodies-found-as-missing-carroll-county-teens

 

[Angels27]

Genealogical DNA - LE confirmed to reporters that they do have DNA. They don't say what kind or if it's a full profile. TL says that they are aware of investigative genetic genealogy technology and at this time have decided to stick with other testing. We don’t know the state of the DNA, or if the profile is complete. At the time of the last presser, in the opinion of the experts LE had certainly had time to run all the DNA tests that they could do. She wishes they were more forthcoming about what they are doing with DNA but understands why they don’t say more.

Once they decide to put the DNA they have into the genealogy database won’t that information automatically become available for public consumption? Like for any of the perps family members who have already entered their DNA, to then get a notification that you’ve recently “matched” with another human in X state”? Thus tipping off the family members, the perp, and any others watching for such a hit.

Maybe that’s why they aren’t entering it into that database. Or something about Indiana law is prohibiting them somehow with regard to the DNA. I read something to that effect, but I don’t remember exactly what it was.

 

[Skully]

So this is probably a crazy thought, but looking at this picture, could BG be hiding on one of the pillars and then climb up to the top to be just behind them as they passed him? I don't have a good sense of the distance if he was to be able to get up there. I just see that picture of Abby and he is not behind them and then he is.

 

[Angels27]

My understanding of this issue is that Indiana requires a probable cause warrant for covert DNA collection, like from a suspect's trash. If a covert DNA collection revealed a match between the DNA sample and DNA from the crime scene, investigators could bring a suspect in for questioning and submit a warrant for a regular DNA sample to be taken and compared. This traditional sample would be the one officially used in court but LE would be required to show that the information they used to obtain the warrants was all true and accurate.

If you'd like to see how this worked in an Indiana case, you can read up on the April Tinsley murder: Tinsley detectives reveal new details about case, suspect

In that case, a DNA profile from the victim's body and some associated communications was sent to Parabon, who did investigative genetic genealogy using open public databases. They created a family tree that identified two brothers as potential POIs. This information was essentially treated like a tip that enabled LE to get a warrant for a covert trash pull for the more likely of the two men. They obtained 3 used condoms in his trash that had DNA consistent with the profile from the crimes. They used this to bring him in for questioning and before they could make any other investigative moves, he confessed fully.

His case did not go before a jury as he accepted a guilty plea.

OK and in this case we known they haven’t elected to use any public genealogy databases yet or at least they hadn’t last time I checked, so say in this case they DO have DNA obtained legally from POI but it is not complete or maybe the crime scene DNA is not complete, so they cannot yet determine if there is a full match. What would their next step be?

If this is the case, would u then be at all surprised to hear LE say something like, “We are waiting for technological advancements to catch up with this case?” What in the future might make what evidence they currently have all of a sudden viable and admissible in court?

 

[Angels27]

So this is probably a crazy thought, but looking at this picture, could BG be hiding on one of the pillars and then climb up to the top to be just behind them as they passed him? I don't have a good sense of the distance if he was to be able to get up there. I just see that picture of Abby and he is not behind them and then he is.

very good point. Looks like there are all kinds of ladders there. Very possibly that happened.