Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Charlot123]

To the women in Delphi and surrounding towns: don’t be stupid, naive or vain and think your bf, husband, father, son, brother, cousin, or coworker is not capable of such horror, or that you “would know.” Anyone is capable of anything. BTK killer’s wife and kids “had no clue.” He seemed “normal.” Take a long, close look at who you live with and work with, even if you never have before. Put yourself in the shoes of Abby and Libby’s family. Imagine if that was your child and nobody helped. Hiding the devil is just as bad, or worse, and you too will burn in hell if you do nothing. LE will forgive “fear” for only so long, but forgiveness has a time limit. And once he is brought in and you are also implicated, you will serve serious time for not divulging what you knew when you knew it. Is your “fear” or comfort/livelihood more import than finding this demon who very well might kill again, if he hasn’t already? I will tell you, it is not. Don’t be so vain to think you would know, or that your comfort matters, because you would not and it does not.

To add: don’t ever think that if he killed and enjoyed it once, he can’t ever kill you. And if he pulled that crime, he’ll “disappear” you pretty well.

 

[minazoe]

ok so I don't want to get too carried away with who ran where and how the abduction went down...all I can say is if you are ever in a situation like this you have to ask yourself..will he really shoot her dead right here? doesn't he have her anyway? for children this is an emotional equation that is far too difficult and thats why children are easy victims.

fight fight fight. even with a gun or a knife...and if you run...remember to serpentine!

for some reason I got this weird notion like a voice in my head...and this falls into the ( not a random killing pile)

okay here goes:

what if this crime was not sexual in nature, but was about something sexual?

mOO

 

[No it's not]

Not to open a can of worms...

Always buried in the back of my mind was LE's request for autopsy results after another crime happened in a neighboring town ending in the suspect's suicide. LE said then that specific person was not of particular interest, so I'm not putting the emphasis on him, individually, but the significance of autopsy findings in regards to Delphi evidence.

Abby and Libby's killer may have left something behind, that came off in a fight..e.g. dentures, a prosthesis of some kind, a knocked out tooth, an artificial eye, a handful of hair. Not saying, that's what happened. ALL IMO

Interestingly, you may know, in late 2019 it was published, that a paleogeneticist from CA, Dr Ed Green, had found a technique to extract DNA from hair without roots. It is a groundbreaking technique and he is now helping LE to possibly solve cold cases based on strand hair evidence..

-Nin

 

[TL4S]

Abby and Libby's killer may have left something behind, that came off in a fight..e.g. dentures, a prosthesis of some kind, a knocked out tooth, an artificial eye, a handful of hair. Not saying, that's what happened. ALL IMO

Interestingly, you may know, in late 2019 it was published, that a paleogeneticist from CA, Dr Ed Green, had found a technique to extract DNA from hair without roots. It is a groundbreaking technique and he is now helping LE to possibly solve cold cases based on strand hair evidence..

-Nin

Thank you! Yes, I've thought they have hair evidence ever since the sketches and age ranges changed but the hair color did not. That new technique is very hopeful!

 

[photographer4]

This is my first post on this particular case. I've done a few days worth of reading on the case, but I'm sure there is a lot I still have no idea about! Just the same, I have some questions / ideas (we may not have answers to but maybe it will lead to interesting discussion). Forgive me if its been brought up already.... but....
1. One of the girl's shoes was found on a private driveway. Do we know if the shoe was wet or dry? That might indicate if they went through the creek or around it.
2. Exactly how was the shoe found? Was it flipped over laces side down? Was it right side up? Did it look like she took it off and left it purposefully as a breadcrumb to help indicate which way someone looking for her should go?
3. Which direction was the shoe facing? Is that even relevant? I'm kinda wondering if someone tried to fight and kicked it off or if they purposefully placed it I guess (the girl or the killer).
4. Have we considered that the killer may have had means of exit near that private driveway? I'm doubting that he went back across the bridge and out of the area - he'd just committed what one victim's family described as a horrific murder. Did he just calmly walk back out the way he came in? Is there any chance he had a car near that place where the kids were found? Did he just walk out towards that private house and to some other area where he vanished from?
5. The guy who owns the private property where the girls were found has apparently lived there about 40 years. He said his kids used to play back there with their friends. Have his kids / their childhood friends been met with by LE?
6. What the hell are we missing??

 

[MistyWaters]

To me, there's a big difference in them talking about "a guy still behind them" (as has been how this answer was quoted in other posts) and "a guy they'd seen earlier." Do we know which it was?

As posted above, Ives says there's no obvious motive, no reason for BG to be there that day, semi-random. Combine that with the fact that another girl had an exchange with him, potentially, but was left unharmed (we also have no other information about that situation...), it sounds possible to me that L&A became his targets before they were even on the bridge, but still within a short span of time, unplanned prior to them getting on the trails, imo. Wonder what his trigger was?

I agree, it seems to me it’s likely the killer chose the trail system in general to target females, watching for the opportunity to spot a victim near any isolated area. More so waiting around near the bridge, a preplanned location, hoping a potential victims might happen to walk across it without anyone else around. The first example mirrors a hunter, the later a trapper, quite different in approach.

 

[ReadySet]

Yes, exactly! This was used to solve the case of Daralyn Johnson, which I have posted about previously.

In 2016 Greg met scientist Ed Green, whose lab at U.C. Santa Cruz looks at old, broken, and degraded DNA.

Hampikian says this is cutting edge stuff. They can look at smaller and smaller pieces to identify a mitochondrial DNA profile.


"Really, the best of the best of the best for old, dead, broken DNA," said Hampikian.


https://www.kivitv.com/news/new-dna-technology-leads-to-dna-match-in-daralyn-johnson-murder-case

Abby and Libby's killer may have left something behind, that came off in a fight..e.g. dentures, a prosthesis of some kind, a knocked out tooth, an artificial eye, a handful of hair. Not saying, that's what happened. ALL IMO

Interestingly, you may know, in late 2019 it was published, that a paleogeneticist from CA, Dr Ed Green, had found a technique to extract DNA from hair without roots. It is a groundbreaking technique and he is now helping LE to possibly solve cold cases based on strand hair evidence..

-Nin

 

[StarryStarryNight]

If, hypothetically speaking, this were to happen, I believe LE would be made aware. Would LE make contact? That's certainly a point to ponder.

I've been meaning to ask, @stattlich1, with your theory of BG entering and exiting via the cemetery, what are your thoughts on his clothes not being wet in the photograph(s) that Libby took? If you've mentioned this in the past, I've missed it.

If BG came from the cemetery there would be no reason that he should have on wet clothes. He walks from the cemetery, to the trails and to the railroad bridge. He crosses the bridge toward the girls and Libby gets his picture. He’s never been close to the creek at that point.

 

[MistyWaters]

This is my first post on this particular case. I've done a few days worth of reading on the case, but I'm sure there is a lot I still have no idea about! Just the same, I have some questions / ideas (we may not have answers to but maybe it will lead to interesting discussion). Forgive me if its been brought up already.... but....
1. One of the girl's shoes was found on a private driveway. Do we know if the shoe was wet or dry? That might indicate if they went through the creek or around it.
2. Exactly how was the shoe found? Was it flipped over laces side down? Was it right side up? Did it look like she took it off and left it purposefully as a breadcrumb to help indicate which way someone looking for her should go?
3. Which direction was the shoe facing? Is that even relevant? I'm kinda wondering if someone tried to fight and kicked it off or if they purposefully placed it I guess (the girl or the killer).
4. Have we considered that the killer may have had means of exit near that private driveway? I'm doubting that he went back across the bridge and out of the area - he'd just committed what one victim's family described as a horrific murder. Did he just calmly walk back out the way he came in? Is there any chance he had a car near that place where the kids were found? Did he just walk out towards that private house and to some other area where he vanished from?
5. The guy who owns the private property where the girls were found has apparently lived there about 40 years. He said his kids used to play back there with their friends. Have his kids / their childhood friends been met with by LE?
6. What the hell are we missing??

Welcome!

1 - 3. Finding the shoe has only been mentioned in passing as Libby’s sister has recounted her experience that day...the searchers calling out to her, asking her what colour was Libby’s shoe to aid in IDing their discovery.

4. Virtually everything possible and more (within TOS) has been speculated within these 130 threads. Very few facts are known, as LE have stated numerous times, to protect the integrity of the investigation.

5. LE would not be expected to release who’ve they’ve talked, plus it’s against TOS to discuss anyone who’s not a POI, which at the moment is nobody who LE has publicly named.

6. What’s missing I think is the one good tip LE requires to solve this case from somebody who knows first-hand who is responsible. I hope it will come soon!

 

[kodi]

If BG came from the cemetery there would be no reason that he should have on wet clothes. He walks from the cemetery, to the trails and to the railroad bridge. He crosses the bridge toward the girls and Libby gets his picture. He’s never been close to the creek at that point.

Thank you! I need to review the maps again.

 

[stattlich1]

If, hypothetically speaking, this were to happen, I believe LE would be made aware. Would LE make contact? That's certainly a point to ponder.

I've been meaning to ask, @stattlich1, with your theory of BG entering and exiting via the cemetery, what are your thoughts on his clothes not being wet in the photograph(s) that Libby took? If you've mentioned this in the past, I've missed it.

Good question. A person must be clear in terms of the terrain, and the layout of the area. The cemetery, crime scene, and beginning of the trail before reaching the bridge are all on the same side of deer creek. I don't think he crossed the creek to get to the trail.

Access to the beginning of the trail, the part prior to reaching the bridge, could be made, under wooded cover I would add, directly from the cemetery without crossing the creek. It's a straight shot. It is in this part of the woods that I've often thought a decent view of the trail leading to the bridge, and the bridge itself, could be achieved.

 

[Ravenmoon]

These past couple of weeks have been interesting in terms of the questions people ask and even in responses recently given by LE.

Many people have been asking about the location of the vehicle that the killer left. I have a different theory ( I think) than most.

I don't think there was a vehicle.

JMO MOO AMOO

 

[kodi]

Good question. A person must be clear in terms of the terrain, and the layout of the area. The cemetery, crime scene, and beginning of the trail before reaching the bridge are all on the same side of deer creek. I don't think he crossed the creek to get to the trail.

Access to the beginning of the trail, the part prior to reaching the bridge, could be made, under wooded cover I would add, directly from the cemetery without crossing the creek. It's a straight shot. It is in this part of the woods that I've often thought a decent view of the trail leading to the bridge, and the bridge itself, could be achieved.

This has been nagging me for awhile but once I looked at a map it made sense. Thanks.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

This is my first post on this particular case. I've done a few days worth of reading on the case, but I'm sure there is a lot I still have no idea about! Just the same, I have some questions / ideas (we may not have answers to but maybe it will lead to interesting discussion). Forgive me if its been brought up already.... but....
1. One of the girl's shoes was found on a private driveway. Do we know if the shoe was wet or dry? That might indicate if they went through the creek or around it.
2. Exactly how was the shoe found? Was it flipped over laces side down? Was it right side up? Did it look like she took it off and left it purposefully as a breadcrumb to help indicate which way someone looking for her should go?
3. Which direction was the shoe facing? Is that even relevant? I'm kinda wondering if someone tried to fight and kicked it off or if they purposefully placed it I guess (the girl or the killer).
4. Have we considered that the killer may have had means of exit near that private driveway? I'm doubting that he went back across the bridge and out of the area - he'd just committed what one victim's family described as a horrific murder. Did he just calmly walk back out the way he came in? Is there any chance he had a car near that place where the kids were found? Did he just walk out towards that private house and to some other area where he vanished from?
5. The guy who owns the private property where the girls were found has apparently lived there about 40 years. He said his kids used to play back there with their friends. Have his kids / their childhood friends been met with by LE?
6. What the hell are we missing??

I’ll give it a shot with some answers as I remember things.
1) Libby’s by first account was found in the grass and mud down close to the creek bank on the south side...opposite side from where their bodies were found. A searcher yelled up to Kelsie who was standing on the driveway asking what type of shoes the girls had on and Kelsie identified what they had found as Libby’s shoe. In someone’s narrative much later it was stated it was found on the driveway but I believe this was a mis-statement.
2) I’ve never seen a picture of the shoe as it was found, or a detailed description of how it was oriented etc.
3) Same answer as #2. My opinion only is that she lost the shoe in the mud near the creek bank as she was trying to run.
4) The girl’s bodies were found on the opposite side of the creek from where the private driveway is. In order to leave that way BG would have to cross the creek a second time to get back to it. From the crime scene he could simply walk back up to and along the trails(supposedly there are witnesses), or if he was parked at the cemetery, back there(where no one probably saw him).
5) Probably but I don’t know.
6) My opinion only, we are missing more information from LE so someone out there can connect the dots.

 

[Diddian]

To add: don’t ever think that if he killed and enjoyed it once, he can’t ever kill you. And if he pulled that crime, he’ll “disappear” you pretty well.

I would just add to your message that if there is such a person as you are directing this message to (someone who lives with or is otherwise associated with a person they know or strongly suspect to be involved here and who is afraid or otherwise hesitant to come forward), they should first get themselves somewhere safe, with people who understand the danger (a shelter, relatives or close friends, law enforcement), and then speak with law enforcement. Do NOT stay with the danger at such a critical time.

 

[Pyschsandi]

A Sister’s Walk for Justice: The Delphi Murders [EXCLUSIVE]

"This means the killer did something unique that was not necessary for the commission of the crime. I asked him (Ives) straight out could there have been two killers.

He said, “No, I don’t think so. This was one person.

A killer leaving at least three different signatures leads me to think there is some distinct mental illness that he would not be able to hide from others. We don’t know if these signatures were pre or postmortem. Ives said it’s not like any other crime he has been to."

This is some interesting stuff from Ives, IMO.

I agree that anyone that could hurt two young girls has something wrong with his psyche. The three different signatures were probably part of this guys fantasy. This type of predator doesn’t wake up one day and start killing. He most likely was fantasizing about what he would like to do for years. One or both of these girls were his type in his fantasy. Something must have happened such as losing a job or problems in a relationship that made him so angry that he needed to hurt someone. He had to know the area beforehand and know that he would have privacy to do what he wanted. Most likely he has a criminal record, drugs, assault ,theft, etc... He is a very demented man but may seem quite normal if you don’t know him well.

 

[Peppery]

These past couple of weeks have been interesting in terms of the questions people ask and even in responses recently given by LE.

Many people have been asking about the location of the vehicle that the killer left. I have a different theory ( I think) than most.

I don't think there was a vehicle.

JMO MOO AMOO

I agree. Any vehicles there didn’t belong to him. I think he walked a fair distance before being picked up.

I also wonder how tall his boots are under his jeans. And even what kind they are. Could he have tucked the wet hems of his pants into the boots while walking? How quickly would they have dried? If the whole boot was say brown leather and the whole boot was wet, it would just look like a darker brown boot. It wouldn’t necessarily look wet to a person who just saw him and didn’t know who they were seeing.

 

[Pyschsandi]

I agree. Any vehicles there didn’t belong to him. I think he walked a fair distance before being picked up.

I also wonder how tall his boots are under his jeans. And even what kind they are. Could he have tucked the wet hems of his pants into the boots while walking? How quickly would they have dried? If the whole boot was say brown leather and the whole boot was wet, it would just look like a darker brown boot. It wouldn’t necessarily look wet to a person who just saw him and didn’t know who they were seeing.

I live in a fairly small town and most people don’t walk. The people I know that walk are homeless. I don’t know much about the town of Delphi, so I don’t know if they have public transportation. I think that he had to have some kind of vehicle. My husband’s family has some land and we can drive our truck through some of it. Maybe the vehicle was parked in the woods as far as it could go in.

 

[MistyWaters]

Just pasting a synopsis of an article from the US Department of Justice Library.... As time passes it seems to me everyone who is close to this case believes the perpetrator is closely aligned to the Serial Killer profile as described -

Serial Killers | Office of Justice Programs
Author - Nelson Andreu
The author, who investigated serial murders of some 50 people by 6 killers during his 20 years with the Miami Police Department (Florida), identifies similarities among those who kill multiple people who are strangers to them.

Abstract
Serial killers tend to be White males between the ages of 20 and 40, and most begin their criminal careers with petty crimes. Some typical early crimes by serial killers are the torturing of animals and arson. Serial killers frequently have low self-esteem, complicated by some type of sexual dysfunction. Many were themselves victims of sexual abuse and/or were raised in violent households. They tend to be introverted and friendless and may maintain unhealthy ties to a family member, often the mother. In nearly all the murders committed by serial killers, they are motivated by obsessive deviant sexual desires and fantasies. The critical feature of serial killers that distinguishes them from others who may harbor deviant sexual fantasies is that their imaginary scenarios must be translated into the world of real people, who become their victims. Although serial killers may seek ongoing satisfaction by replaying the scenario of a killing in their minds, sometimes using "trophies" and symbols from the victim, this eventually fuels the drive toward another killing. Serial killers generally select victims based on certain physical and/or personal characteristics that fit their fantasy victim. Still, a high priority is given to vulnerable and accessible victims. Although acting under a compulsion, serial killers are cautious in the commission of their crimes, such that there are typically no witnesses and few clues at the crime scene. In the course of committing their murders, victims become objects in a drama designed to fulfill the fantasies of the killer. This means that the serial killer has no sensitivity to or feeling for the victim.

 

[Angels27]

"Fake cop" (perhaps!), but appearing in SWAT gear would have been a little too much and in any case inappropriate obviously?? (I think of MissyB/TX.)
I don't know, if there is a connection, but my thoughts are connecting these cases sometimes because of the senseless (?) blitz attack and the/a disguise in some form.

All he’d need is an “official” looking badge or act authoritatively like a security guard or some b.s. 100% this guy did that. I.m.o. of course. We can hear it in his voice.