Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Pyschsandi]

This may or may not fall into the related discussion as to whether this was a crime of “opportunity” and/or “circumstance”, but I wonder about planning.

As an example, farmers where I grew up frequently had a gun in a rack of the back window of their truck or behind the seat. If such a farmer drives out with the intention of checking their north soybean field during deer season and sees a six point buck on the edge of the field something different might happen. A hunter before going out in the field for a planned hunt might go through their checklist – ammunition, hunting license, hunting/skinning knife, etc. – before even leaving the house. Planned. In the case of the farmer he didn’t plan on shooting a deer on that trip, but he probably checked to make sure he had his wallet with his hunting license/tags and his rifle. Gets out, shoots the deer and works out the details – cleaning, skinning, etc. – later. He didn’t INITIALLY plan on getting a deer, but once the situation presented itself, he devised a plan.

I try to picture in my mind how this killer operated. Did he go out to the trails prior to this and devise a plan and then went there that with he planned to need on his person and hunted a victim? Or did he find himself at the trail that day and see the girls and possibly went back to vehicle and get what he needed.

For those of us on here, that distinction probably holds little meaning, but LE probably does give it a lot of thought. I also wonder if the crime scene yields anything that tells the investigator the level of planning in this and the type of person he/she is looking for. How does the signatures figure into this, if at all? How the definition of “opportunity” or “circumstance” in criminology fits into these, I don’t know. Just thinking out loud.

I have tried to think like BG as well and I can’t see this guy going on a leisurely walk enjoying the beauty of the scenery. There has to be a reason for him to be in that area besides a hike by himself. I do know from the maps and pictures in the area that hunting is prohibited on the trail. I don’t know if hunting is allowed on the land they found the girls on.

 

[navywife]

We're told it was an unusual scene or something to that effect by LE - what made it so? We were told he left physical evidence, but not what we might think. What does that mean?

I would imagine if it were DNA evidence, they could/would have caught him well before now. I've wondered about:
-a trinket/small item
-very distinct shoe print from a unique/different shoe
-a piece of clothing
-food he was eating/had in hand that dropped [sunflower seeds, pistachio shells, etc]
-vape cartridge/un-smoked cigarette/very specific type that is 'different & unique'

 

[navywife]

We're told it was an unusual scene or something to that effect by LE - what made it so? We were told he left physical evidence, but not what we might think. What does that mean?

I've wondered about:
-a trinket/small item
-very distinct shoe print from a unique/different shoe
-a piece of clothing
-food he was eating/had in hand that dropped [sunflower seeds, pistachio shells, etc]
-vape cartridge/un-smoked cigarette/very specific type that is 'different & unique'

 

[minazoe]

I wouldn’t discount anything at this point, but I would think that an animal rights activist would respect all life and wouldn’t do a crime as this one. Don’t ever think that a crazy idea wouldn’t have any merit because this is a sick person who did this horrible crime.

there are some people that feel it's an eye for an eye situation, because they think of human beings as the problem and wish to make a point... just as they would like to bomb a processing facility potentially killing all the people inside it. someone who is psychotic is dangerous in this regard.

mOO

 

[Yemelyan]

I have tried to think like BG as well and I can’t see this guy going on a leisurely walk enjoying the beauty of the scenery. There has to be a reason for him to be in that area besides a hike by himself. I do know from the maps and pictures in the area that hunting is prohibited on the trail. I don’t know if hunting is allowed on the land they found the girls on.

Since they were found on private property, I'm guessing it was technically not allowed. Some posters here have been to the area, maybe they know if the land was posted. I'm sure LE questioned the property owner as to who had been allowed on his property or was known to be on for any reason, including hunting.

 

[Pyschsandi]

This may or may not fall into the related discussion as to whether this was a crime of “opportunity” and/or “circumstance”, but I wonder about planning.

As an example, farmers where I grew up frequently had a gun in a rack of the back window of their truck or behind the seat. If such a farmer drives out with the intention of checking their north soybean field during deer season and sees a six point buck on the edge of the field something different might happen. A hunter before going out in the field for a planned hunt might go through their checklist – ammunition, hunting license, hunting/skinning knife, etc. – before even leaving the house. Planned. In the case of the farmer he didn’t plan on shooting a deer on that trip, but he probably checked to make sure he had his wallet with his hunting license/tags and his rifle. Gets out, shoots the deer and works out the details – cleaning, skinning, etc. – later. He didn’t INITIALLY plan on getting a deer, but once the situation presented itself, he devised a plan.

I try to picture in my mind how this killer operated. Did he go out to the trails prior to this and devise a plan and then went there that with he planned to need on his person and hunted a victim? Or did he find himself at the trail that day and see the girls and possibly went back to vehicle and get what he needed.

For those of us on here, that distinction probably holds little meaning, but LE probably does give it a lot of thought. I also wonder if the crime scene yields anything that tells the investigator the level of planning in this and the type of person he/she is looking for. How does the signatures figure into this, if at all? How the definition of “opportunity” or “circumstance” in criminology fits into these, I don’t know. Just thinking out loud.

I have tried to think like BG as well and I can’t see this guy going on a leisurely walk enjoying the beauty of the scenery. There has to be a reason for him to be in that area besides a hike by himself. I do know from the maps and pictures in the area that hunting is prohibited on the trail. I don’t know if hunting is allowed on the land they found the girls on.

Since they were found on private property, I'm guessing it was technically not allowed. Some posters here have been to the area, maybe they know if the land was posted. I'm sure LE questioned the property owner as to who had been allowed on his property or was known to be on for any reason, including hunting.

I found a pic of the sign that says hunting is prohibited on page 1 in the map of the area. Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

 

[photographer4]

I read late last night, it is something they could usually trace back to someone specific, but haven't been able to do so in this case... so what could that physical evidence be? The specific quote from the article I've linked below is as follows: " Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

So? What could or should have logically led to one person or another, but didn't? Theories?
-> Did he leave (intentionally or not), a device of some sort at the scene? Electronic device? Prosthetic device (serial numbers can be used to trace these to maker etc). Was he diabetic and left something related to that there?
-> what could he have done that they thought they should have been able to trace back to someone specific?
-> some hint of employment?

2. We've only heard about Libby's phone having taken the video / audio evidence. Did Abby have a phone? If so, where was it? Who has it now?

(Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online)

 

[Angels27]

I'm curious, because it seems to be a commonly held belief among posters that Libby was in some way the focus of this crime. If not exactly the target (because we're told by LE that it was not a targeted crime) then at least the one who attracted the killer's attention, and the one who probably gave him the most trouble that day.

Why was Abby not "presented as the threat" that had to be silenced? Because she was younger? Smaller?

Or was it the presence of both girls that made them either an intolerable threat that he needed to eliminate, or irresistible prey?

Maybe I've missed something that points to Libby more than Abby as the one the killer glommed onto. I know there don't seem to be as many voices characterizing Abby in the press - mostly AW, and I believe Abby's grandfather has been interviewed about her a couple of times. Maybe that is why Abby is often characterized in posts as the sidekick - because we feel we know Libby better, through her sister and grandparents' words and their willingness to put themselves out in front of the public in their search for justice. They've portrayed Libby as an outsize personality - precocious, indomitable, a spitfire, fierce and intelligent and probably quite a handful for anyone who crossed her. And we've seen Libby's intelligence and presence of mind in the evidence she brilliantly managed to leave.

But that doesn't mean Libby was the girl on the bridge who caught the killer's malevolent interest, or alternately the girl he decided had to be silenced at all costs. And I don't want us to get caught up in that version of events to the exclusion of questions such as: was Abby the one who knew something he didn't want her to know? Had Abby ever seen him before?

MOO

Right, or had one of Abby’s or Libby’s family members rebuffed him or angered him?

 

[Angels27]

Did anyone that day report hearing any screams? Does anyone know? If not, I wonder why.

 

[photographer4]

Still rapid firing thoughts as I learn about this case and those poor kids.... Did the girls have open caskets? If so, can we rule out trauma to their faces?

 

[Angels27]

What are the ages or age ranges of your top suspects? Iyo

I have 2. One is 24-29 now. The other is 72-75. imo

 

[Pyschsandi]

I read late last night, it is something they could usually trace back to someone specific, but haven't been able to do so in this case... so what could that physical evidence be? The specific quote from the article I've linked below is as follows: " Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

So? What could or should have logically led to one person or another, but didn't? Theories?
-> Did he leave (intentionally or not), a device of some sort at the scene? Electronic device? Prosthetic device (serial numbers can be used to trace these to maker etc). Was he diabetic and left something related to that there?
-> what could he have done that they thought they should have been able to trace back to someone specific?
-> some hint of employment?

2. We've only heard about Libby's phone having taken the video / audio evidence. Did Abby have a phone? If so, where was it? Who has it now?

(Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online)

Thank you for that interesting link. I noticed that the police think that the crime scene was staged in some way. There was an FBI agent that claimed staging in a crime is usually done when the perpetrator knows the victims. This is all very useful information.

 

[Angels27]

Thank you for that interesting link. I noticed that the police think that the crime scene was staged in some way. There was an FBI agent that claimed staging in a crime is usually done when the perpetrator knows the victims. This is all very useful information.

I thought staging was used by serial killers to leave some kind of mark? No?

So this FBI agent is saying they use it to make a statement? Maybe hinting at why they killed them? Like revenge, or scorn, or slight, etc?

 

[Charlot123]

For the longest time I've heard Ives state "...it’s not like any other crime he has been to." I believe I've read that Ives has spent almost all of his career in that area. I believe I've also heard him say they've had murders, but the culprit was caught soon after. Very few murders over his career to be sure. But I imagine all of what he has seen to this point are committed by a family member or an acquaintance known to the victim and the motive was money or it was the result of something like a domestic issue. To find two girls murdered like this is probably enough to qualify as different from any crime scene he has been to before. IOW, not necessarily because of something ritualistic or symbolic at the crime scene. I try to no longer read too much into that statement by Ives.

Unlike the sheriff he doesn't publicly ponder about whether there is one killer or two. He seems to believe it was one person.

Here is the question. Most likely, it was one person who killed. Could there be two people present, though? Or, one could tell to the other, "wait for me over there, I just need to talk to them".

 

[Pyschsandi]

I thought staging was used by serial killers to leave some kind of mark? No?

So this FBI agent is saying they use it to make a statement? Maybe hinting at why they killed them? Like revenge, or scorn, or slight, etc?

Staging a crime is putting things at the scene that could lead investigators to another suspect . An example would be an ex husband kills his wife and undresses her to make it look like a rape. In that case an investigator wouldn’t think it was the husband that killed her.

 

[Pyschsandi]

Here is the question. Most likely, it was one person who killed. Could there be two people present, though? Or, one could tell to the other, "wait for me over there, I just need to talk to them".

I remember the toolbox killers that were a team. I think it could be a possibility.

 

[minazoe]

I thought staging was used by serial killers to leave some kind of mark? No?

So this FBI agent is saying they use it to make a statement? Maybe hinting at why they killed them? Like revenge, or scorn, or slight, etc?

3 kinds of staging.

staging to hide elements of the crime
staging to inflict shock and trauma
staging as ritual

mOO

 

[margarita25]

Did anyone that day report hearing any screams? Does anyone know? If not, I wonder why.

Nope.

 

[Charlot123]

Circumstance from Google/Oxford
1. a fact or condition connected with or relevant to an event or action.
"we wanted to marry but circumstances didn't permit"

• an event or fact that causes or helps to cause something to happen, typically something undesirable.

So Monday, Feb 13th was an unusually warm winter day and a day off school. After a sleepover at Libby’s place, the two girls asked to spend the afternoon at the bridge, hiking and taking photos. Although they had no means to get there on their own, Libby’s sister kindly agreed to drop them off on her way to her boyfriends place. They arrived just after 1:30pm.

This to me all that describes the “circumstances” (ie situation) causing them to be at the bridge at the exact same time a killer was lurking.

Had the weather not been warm, had they been in school, had the two friends not been hanging out together, had they not went to the trail/bridge but instead to somewhere else, etc this tragedy wouldn’t have occurred however there easily might’ve been different victim/s .....but still totally opposite to that of a targeted murder, premeditated murder of Abby and Libby.

JMO

Probably. The true issue is - no one saw the girls on the bridge. Kelsi dropped them off. What transpired between her dropping off and the murderer killing them, I have no idea.

What I am saying, of course, it could have been a SK, or, there might have been some events unknown to us in the girls' lives, or even both. However, it might have also been that before they met the killer, they ran into someone else, who was not a killer. We don't know.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Still rapid firing thoughts as I learn about this case and those poor kids.... Did the girls have open caskets? If so, can we rule out trauma to their faces?

They did have open caskets. Their appearance is all rumor.
Also, the work that can be done with make up by morticians (depending on their level of ability) can be quite extraordinary.

AMOO JMO MOO