Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Yemelyan]

Thank you yemelyan. My iPad wouldn’t download the entire study, so all I had to go on was the abstract. It’s sad that they found 800 cases to study of offenders that would hurt children.

I've shared in these Delphi threads before some of the more interesting data from the study as pertains to the deaths of Abby and Libby. If you search on my user name, I think you can find them. And you are very welcome!

 

[photographer4]

Just wondering...
Was Libby's phone ON or OFF when they found it? If it was on, that might indicate that it either:
- died at some point after she recorded BG,
OR:
- she or he turned it off before it was found.

Why does this matter? It might give some more insight, and I'm sure LE have considered this too - if it was on silent, BG may not have known she'd recorded him until LE told this to the public themselves.

If the phone was OFF when it was found, but had sufficient battery left, then who turned it off and when and why?

If the phone was ON but on SILENT when it was found, was that normally how she managed her device? Maybe it was on Vibe? If it had sufficient battery, and was ON and set to chime / ring etc when it was found, then is it possible that the killer saw the text from DG indicating he was coming to get them and would be there in a few mins? Was that his cue that he better get out of there? Did he already know from the kids when they were expecting to be collected by someone?

Surely if the device had rung / chimed / vibed etc he'd have noticed that, and if he had, surely he'd have taken the phone with him, no?

The only other possibility I came up with was maybe he knew about the phone and had seen the recording that she made himself, before LE even released it. Maybe he wanted to get caught? Or was cocky and didn't think it would be enough to get him? OR... did this SOB pick up that phone and record a message to LE on that device then place it where they found it???

 

[MistyWaters]

Just wondering...
Was Libby's phone ON or OFF when they found it? If it was on, that might indicate that it either:
- died at some point after she recorded BG,
OR:
- she or he turned it off before it was found.

Why does this matter? It might give some more insight, and I'm sure LE have considered this too - if it was on silent, BG may not have known she'd recorded him until LE told this to the public themselves.

If the phone was OFF when it was found, but had sufficient battery left, then who turned it off and when and why?

If the phone was ON but on SILENT when it was found, was that normally how she managed her device? Maybe it was on Vibe? If it had sufficient battery, and was ON and set to chime / ring etc when it was found, then is it possible that the killer saw the text from DG indicating he was coming to get them and would be there in a few mins? Was that his cue that he better get out of there? Did he already know from the kids when they were expecting to be collected by someone?

Surely if the device had rung / chimed / vibed etc he'd have noticed that, and if he had, surely he'd have taken the phone with him, no?

The only other possibility I came up with was maybe he knew about the phone and had seen the recording that she made himself, before LE even released it. Maybe he wanted to get caught? Or was cocky and didn't think it would be enough to get him? OR... did this SOB pick up that phone and record a message to LE on that device then place it where they found it???

We don’t know for sure what time the crime occurred but another possibility is the killer was long gone by the time DG attempted to phone Libby. The SC photos were sent at 2:07 and he called her shortly after 3pm iirc. ISP seems to have a reason to believe it happened fairly quickly.

“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

 

[Yemelyan]

These are excerpts from an interview with Jay Abbott, now retired FBI but he was the special agent in charge at Indianapolis when the murders occurred and was involved in the early days of the investigation:

The FBI doesn’t have jurisdiction for murder cases, this was clearly a case in the jurisdiction for Carroll County/ISP, and Doug Carter, superintendent of the ISP, a great friend and colleague came to us and asked for our assistance.

As the special agent in charge at that time I had the authority to provide whatever assistance he might want. I was enthused to release every FBI asset, technical ability, anything we had to help him solve this case. ISP stayed at the forefront in charge of the case. There were days where the FBI had more personnel in and around Delphi than any other agency. Sometimes there were 100 agents I was trying to keep track of, all doing various things - whether with the command post, videography, voice analysis, crime scene experts, behavioral analysis experts, and numerous agents pounding the pavement and running down leads.

Each day that went by we felt we were going to be closer and closer and closer. The investigators Doug assigned were extremely competent, very reliable , very intuitive in how they investigated, they worked together seamlessly. We felt each day we would have that day. I was impressed oftentimes - in the position I was in - you want to be careful not to meddle and interfere with the investigators and just make sure they have the tools for success - but one of the things I was impressed with was, they would start their day with a prayer. Today is the day we finally bring justice to this case. Everybody genuinely wanted to see a positive outcome, solution, bring an end to it.

The exasperation and frustration is always there....It’s still very close to Doug’s thoughts and mine. When is something going to happen. The numerous things we had at our disposal and all the information and evidence that existed, it just boggles the mind. I feel and I know Doug feels the same way, there is somebody out there who knows something. They know the person, they know something about the murder, but they are fearful to come forward. They might feel themselves complicit in some way. To that person I'd say, we will protect you. You’ll be safe. You’ll be doing an incredible service to the families and community if you come forward.

Because I feel so strongly about some of the circumstantial - I mean, not circumstantial, but crime scene things that we will not speak about, that point to more of a signature that the killer left behind, we feel if that person comes forward that will be the thing that will help us tie it together....

There are things that occurred or are found at the crime scene that only the killer would know. It’s been explained to the family and others and certainly in the media that we just can’t speak about these things. We don't want the killer to know what we know. That person is not at freedom now. They wake up every morning wondering if today is the day they will finally be caught. Whether they care or not about this horrendous act that they committed, they will be caught.


This is from Fox 59 News:

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

The video of him walking is two steps looped over and over again, it’s not his actual gait walking down the bridge. Notice the forked tree in the background as it jumps to and fro but never fading into the distance. Indeed, the video is very deceiving as it does appears the suspect is lurching his way along. If anyone was videoed taking just two steps, then looped over and over IMO the results would never yield a natural uniform movement. Much the same as “down the hill”, the words in the recording were repeated several times.

Watch the tree first, not the suspect -

The video of him walking is two steps looped over and over again, it’s not his actual gait walking down the bridge. Notice the forked tree in the background as it jumps to and fro but never fading into the distance. Indeed, the video is very deceiving as it does appears the suspect is lurching his way along. If anyone was videoed taking just two steps, then looped over and over IMO the results would never yield a natural uniform movement. Much the same as “down the hill”, the words in the recording were repeated several times.

Watch the tree first, not the suspect -

I’m so glad that you brought up the fact that it is a loop. And that you posted the video! Thank you for pointing this out.

There is apart of me that really appreciates the loop feature. And that the video you posted was in slo-mo, as it allows me to solely focus on each and every body movement in great detail. And I can rewatch it as many times as my heart desires, (which as an autistic is something that I LOVE to do!!!).

I also watched it on YT, on the .25x play back speed (and what a FABULOUS feature this is, ty YT!!!! - moo). Again many times.


Both allowed me to confirm my initial instinct of BG being hypermobile, which in turn causes things like duck-foot posture, hyperextended knees, XYZ hypermobile joints, etc..and so much, much, more.
1st pic attached, I see a hypermobile/hyperextended knee.
2nd pic: shows BG’s Duck-footed overpronation.


I will attach screenshots of some of his body positions from the loop that lead me to believe he has some kind of abnormalities.


@MegPTdoc & @Charlot123 -

I am not sure if the steppage gait can cause ones foot/feet to have postural problems, specifically regarding being duck-footed. It’s not a huge, noticeable to most eyes, duck-feet posture. But I see it. Is it possible that that type of gait can cause his feet to turn outwards?

The reason I ask is because BG does have a slight duck-footed posture/overpronation (see pics). I have this too because of my CTD. (Personally I HATE my malalignment, aka miserable malalignment syndrome).


ALL MOO.

 

[Beachlife926]

IMO It could be a blessing she did a factory reset not long before. Considering how fast phones can run out of storage if you take a lot of photos/videos and/or have a lot of apps. My nieces who are the same age as Libby always seems to have storage issues and wouldn’t be able to record a video more than a few seconds. I think of her whenever I receive the warning myself.

 

[Andreee]

And that leads to something I have been thinking about, re. the factory reset Libby did. I wonder if that is a fairly common thing to do and what the main reasons are to do the reset. I know LE examined her phone thoroughly but just wondering.

 

[MistyWaters]

I’m so glad that you brought up the fact that it is a loop. And that you posted the video! Thank you for pointing this out.

There is apart of me that really appreciates the loop feature. And that the video you posted was in slo-mo, as it allows me to solely focus on each and every body movement in great detail. And I can rewatch it as many times as my heart desires, (which as an autistic is something that I LOVE to do!!!).

I also watched it on YT, on the .25x play back speed (and what a FABULOUS feature this is, ty YT!!!! - moo). Again many times.


Both allowed me to confirm my initial instinct of BG being hypermobile, which in turn causes things like duck-foot posture, hyperextended knees, XYZ hypermobile joints, etc..and so much, much, more.
1st pic attached, I see a hypermobile/hyperextended knee.
2nd pic: shows BG’s Duck-footed overpronation.


I will attach screenshots of some of his body positions from the loop that lead me to believe he has some kind of abnormalities.


@MegPTdoc & @Charlot123 -

I am not sure if the steppage gait can cause ones foot/feet to have postural problems, specifically regarding being duck-footed. It’s not a huge, noticeable to most eyes, duck-feet posture. But I see it. Is it possible that that type of gait can cause his feet to turn outwards?

The reason I ask is because BG does have a slight duck-footed posture/overpronation (see pics). I have this too because of my CTD. (Personally I HATE my malalignment, aka miserable malalignment syndrome).


ALL MOO.

Going back in time a lot of difference diagnosis have certainly been applied to this man! The explanation for that is probably each of us see what we want to see given virtually nothing about the image or video is clear and concise.

What I notice is the reason he’s looking downward toward his feet would be the same for virtually everyone walking on that bridge — it’s because he’s walking across old, uneven railway ties on a high bridge. So the placement of each foot requires awareness including watching for gaps because some of the 100+ year old ties are probably no longer exactly level, along with signs of rot. If one requires adjusting their normal gait for this reason, it’s quite normal to lift one foot higher in order to adjust the stride, swivelling slightly or especially if taking a longer step is necessary. That’s just my own opinion of the reason he may appear to have a misalignment in the brief two step video while walking across that bridge...but on level ground nothing whatsoever is noticeable about his gait.

 

[Barbieshell]

And that leads to something I have been thinking about, re. the factory reset Libby did. I wonder if that is a fairly common thing to do and what the main reasons are to do the reset. I know LE examined her phone thoroughly but just wondering.

My last phone ended up malfunctioning, I couldn't make or receive calls at all (even though I had active credit and the phone was only 1 year old).
In a panic and exasperation I restored it back to factory settings, it still didn't work (even when I put all the port / exchange info in myself by hand).
It's possible Libby's phone had a glitch too I suppose.

 

[JudgeJudi]

For those who might be interested to learn more about how LE come up with guesses on height / weight I found this video that helps explain some methods. Either way, I'd wager LE is going to be more accurate than we are on guesses in this area.

They shouldn't have to guess his height or use a bent tree. I would have thought that they could calculate his height using the width of a bridge tie.

 

[photographer4]

We don’t know for sure what time the crime occurred but another possibility is the killer was long gone by the time DG attempted to phone Libby. The SC photos were sent at 2:07 and he called her shortly after 3pm iirc. ISP seems to have a reason to believe it happened fairly quickly.

“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

Oh gosh, I hadn't even considered how quickly this may have gone down! So maybe the killer did not know about the phone / recordings? I guess I just find it odd that he didn't just assume one or both might have a phone and look for / take it. Or... maybe he looked for one but couldn't find it? Hidden pocket somewhere?

 

[photographer4]

And that leads to something I have been thinking about, re. the factory reset Libby did. I wonder if that is a fairly common thing to do and what the main reasons are to do the reset. I know LE examined her phone thoroughly but just wondering.

Even if she had reset it, its possible there may exist, a backup copy of whatever was on it pre-reset somewhere. Maybe on a cloud service or a computer somewhere. Many devices auto backup to a cloud type service, and many will ask if you want to back up right before you wipe the device so she may have had a backup.

 

[minazoe]

And that leads to something I have been thinking about, re. the factory reset Libby did. I wonder if that is a fairly common thing to do and what the main reasons are to do the reset. I know LE examined her phone thoroughly but just wondering.

interesting. mOO

 

[photographer4]

There is an article dated August 16, 2017 in The Journal & Courier (Indiana) which clearly states that there IS more audio than "down the hill". The link might be dead, but the article is still available ISP: More audio recovered from slain Delphi teen's phone

"It does not appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls" (quoted directly from the article in question).

I think we'd be naive to think that there was nothing more on that device. Than what we've seen / heard to date. It seems they've not released for investigative purposes, but I found this comment interesting: "...so we cannot release everything because there are certain people that know the details and if we release it all then we get into false confessions"....

RBBM for ease of discussion. What the heck does this mean?! They've said very clearly before that *someone* knows something and they need that someone to come forward. They've said they will protect that person and this person might even feel complicit. It made me wonder, did the girls capture BG's voice as he was on HIS phone or something? It sounds like the investigators are SURE that someone knows something and they need ONE tip, ONE piece of the puzzle to break this case open. I wonder if that is what they need?! Maybe someone doesn't even realize that they're the person who needs to come forward!!

 

[janewall]

I don’t know if you’re aware of the Media Thread but over time various members have been very diligent in copying links, plus there’s several transcripts there as well and most recently a lot of dedicated work from podcasts by cujenn81. Just thought I’d mention this, for the benefit of all newer members who’ve recently joined us here as well.

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

The transcripts are immensely informative. In them many of the questions we've gone back and forth about in recent threads are addressed, and even answered definitively by LE or by family members. It's definitely worth the time to read them, especially for those who would rather read than listen to or watch hours of media coverage and podcasts. Thank you for highlighting their existence @MistyWaters , and thanks also to @cujenn81 for her dedication in transcribing!

 

[Spartygirl]

My last phone ended up malfunctioning, I couldn't make or receive calls at all (even though I had active credit and the phone was only 1 year old).
In a panic and exasperation I restored it back to factory settings, it still didn't work (even when I put all the port / exchange info in myself by hand).
It's possible Libby's phone had a glitch too I suppose.

Thanks to @JudgeJudi for this- Post #213-about Libby resetting her phone due to a glitch.
IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #104 | Page 11 (websleuths.com)

 

[Yemelyan]

There is an article dated August 16, 2017 in The Journal & Courier (Indiana) which clearly states that there IS more audio than "down the hill". The link might be dead, but the article is still available

"It does not appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls" (quoted directly from the article in question).

I think we'd be naive to think that there was nothing more on that device. Than what we've seen / heard to date. It seems they've not released for investigative purposes, but I found this comment interesting: "...so we cannot release everything because there are certain people that know the details and if we release it all then we get into false confessions"....

RBBM for ease of discussion. What the heck does this mean?! They've said very clearly before that *someone* knows something and they need that someone to come forward. They've said they will protect that person and this person might even feel complicit. It made me wonder, did the girls capture BG's voice as he was on HIS phone or something? It sounds like the investigators are SURE that someone knows something and they need ONE tip, ONE piece of the puzzle to break this case open. I wonder if that is what they need?! Maybe someone doesn't even realize that they're the person who needs to come forward!!

As far as I know, it has never been in dispute that the video Libby took contains more audio. We know from interviews with the family that they were allowed to listen to a portion of the "discussion between the girls" and they've spoken in vague terms of what they heard.

However, I think that a major bombshell to come out of the latest DTH/HLN collaboration, if we take TL at his word, is that there is no more usable audio of the man. In my opinion, prior to this recent revelation most people believed that there had to be more audible words spoken by the offender and that they could potentially be used to identify him, if only the public could hear them. So I think this was a blow to the theories of some people here in the public who were questioning the methods of LE.

 

[Yemelyan]

Thanks to @JudgeJudi for this- Post #213-about Libby resetting her phone due to a glitch.
IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #104 | Page 11 (websleuths.com)

Just to add to this post that links BP's re-telling of how the phone re-set came about, I would say that she also talked about this on the podcast Scene of the Crime. And there she gave a further detail that because of the phone freezing up all the time, the family had researched what to do to solve the problem and Libby's aunt was the one who actually assisted her in doing the re-set.

Because the public was bombarded with phrases like "The Snapchat Murders" in the early days of the investigation (many of us even mis-remember LE telling Delphi parents "be careful what your kids do online" - actually this was not what was said), we are perhaps looking for technology shenanigans that could explain this perplexing situation. So we may tend to read something secretive into the phone re-set. However, it seems it was done with both adult approval and oversight.

 

[MistyWaters]

Oh gosh, I hadn't even considered how quickly this may have gone down! So maybe the killer did not know about the phone / recordings? I guess I just find it odd that he didn't just assume one or both might have a phone and look for / take it. Or... maybe he looked for one but couldn't find it? Hidden pocket somewhere?

JMO the killer wasn’t aware Libby had captured a glimpse of him on video and also was using it to record audio. If that were so he’d have no reason to suspect he was about to become the star performer. When DC mentioned “you made mistakes” I think that was one.

State Police: Libby German 'a hero' | wthr.com
“State Police called Liberty "Libby" German "a hero" for thinking to record the suspect while the crime was happening.

"This lady is a hero. There is no doubt. To have the presence of mind to activate the video on her cell phone," ISP Sgt. Tony Slocum said...”

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

@UnapologeticallyAspie (love this name! Marie Curie was an Aspiegirl).

First, I hope that you and your husband are doing well. ))

Second, I like that you mentioned connective tissue disorder... intuitively, I always felt something...

When I first saw the video of the BG, before it was cleared and processed, and read the comments about bulbous nose, two things came to my mind. One, rosacea, and two, malar rash.

Very different skin changes, and for different reasons. With rosacea in his age, one would think, heavy drinking. Malar rash implies a spectrum of connective tissue disorders (not that they are rare, they are interconnected, at times, the diagnosis is approximate).

And at first I thought, surely, alcoholic, look at him, and then I remembered how healthy people would look between, say, lupus attacks. In short, to me a flare-up of an autoimmune condition, or even, steroids used for treatment, could explain how a seemingly normal person might get very ill (and mentally, too). So ill that he'll do the unthinkable.

So while I understand the futility of diagnosing an apparition on a decrepit bridge, hey, people saw a dog in his jacket )))

In short, I always intuitively felt it. Not connective tissue, autoimmune disorder. Do you think he might have something autoimmune, or rather, genetic, like collagen disorder?

Thank you! <3
Some people saw a dog in his jacket??!?