Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - Pamela Buckley & James Freund #10

[Reannan]

I DESPISE spreading disinformation!!! I am so sorry that I posted that thing about JPF living in Lancaster, SC!!! Horrified, really!!

 

[branmuffin]

Got that.... thanks! I've had the name of the man who found the bodies since 2012 from a Wikipedia page that no longer exist. I live in SC. He lived around 2 miles from where the bodies were located. I am confused because of what the article linked below said: "pulled over on the shoulder of Locklear Road to take a break from driving when he noticed the bodies sprawled out on the dirt road." Why do you pull over to rest when you are close to two miles from your home? The 2012 Wikipedia article never clarified why he was in the location of finding the bodies (I have a Word Document of that article which is now a broken link). A lot of my OLD links are broken, so here is a recent link to information about the finding of the bodies: Sumter County Does identified

Maybe the driver had to pee so they called it a break.

 

[Valiant]

Just wondering,long shot, I know, but do you think the killer (tried to) used their IDs?

I've wondered if either James or Pam owned a car that was worth a little money, if someone who looked vaguely like the car's owner could have used the ID to sell the car and get some money.

 

[worm]

I DESPISE spreading disinformation!!! I am so sorry that I posted that thing about JPF living in Lancaster, SC!!! Horrified, really!!

I wouldn’t call a little error like that “spreading disinformation”, there’s no harm done. Given the general proximity, I’m surprised this hasn’t innocently happened more times. I guess the people that settled that area of SC had some connection since there is York, Chester, Lancaster, and Union. All with places of the same namesake in PA.

 

[Fukiyama]

It is agonizing the read the initials JPF spelled out so clearly one month after discovery of the bodies, while knowing now that concrete lead was minimized in favor of fantastic pursuit throughout Canada and even into Argentina.

Hindsight is twenty-twenty, certainly. If KOA guy had never come forward with the story about Jock, one wonders what amateur sleuths would have had to go on over the years. And the Argentina Angle is fairly recent in the grand scheme of things and only came up after Canada and people like the McMinns had been completely exhausted as leads people here could follow up.

People may look back now and see them as red herrings and wild goose chases that wasted time, but they did keep people engaged when there was really very little to go on.

 

[Reannan]

Hindsight is twenty-twenty, certainly. If KOA guy had never come forward with the story about Jock, one wonders what amateur sleuths would have had to go on over the years. And the Argentina Angle is fairly recent in the grand scheme of things and only came up after Canada and people like the McMinns had been completely exhausted as leads people here could follow up.

People may look back now and see them as red herrings and wild goose chases that wasted time, but they did keep people engaged when there was really very little to go on.

And isn't that the point of everything here?? It is SO IMPORTANT to keep these cold cases alive, and I don't see anything wrong with thinking outside of the box. All anyone had years and years ago were the clues that were provided by local media, and in my opinion, it's pretty impressive they/we looked so long and hard in so many places. Most cases that get solved are because someone never gives up.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

And isn't that the point of everything here?? It is SO IMPORTANT to keep these cold cases alive, and I don't see anything wrong with thinking outside of the box. All anyone had years and years ago were the clues that were provided by local media, and in my opinion, it's pretty impressive they/we looked so long and hard in so many places. Most cases that get solved are because someone never gives up.

I disagree with the notion of thinking outside the box. Once that method is applied it leads to absurdity rationalized as progress. Notice that when the DNA Doe Project took over the case they said they completely ignored the sleuther theories on Canada, etc. They did the genetic research with particular focus on the best concrete variable...the ring with JPF. That should have been the sleuther undertaking all along. And it is not 20/20 hindsight. I remember posting one time on Reddit that all of the concrete variables including the location of the bodies, the shirt he was wearing, the rings she was wearing, the Bulova watch, and his ring all suggested United States. One reply was almost immediate. It was something like, "We know they were found here. But obviously they weren't from here."

That's the danger of brutal conventional wisdom once outside the box is brainwashed as the proper route. You always have to start with simple first. Don't deviate unless it's absolutely certain as wrong. For example, I would wager huge that Richard Floyd McCoy was DB Cooper. It is a simple situation in which the guy who did it the second time was also the guy who did it the first time. Anybody can pull the trigger on a gun. Virtually nobody can pull off a crime like that with hundreds of variables and in full public view for hours. That's why devaluing the connection due to irrelevancies like stewardess opinion is comical. He lost the money during the jump the first time, unprepared for the weight and unruliness. That's why a body was never found and the parachute was never found. He survived and schemed to do it again. During the interim he saw the laughable approach and theories from the FBI and rationalized that he didn't need nearly as much misdirection the second time. Consequently he parachuted nearly into his own backyard in Provo. He almost got away with that one also, except a friend got suspicious and tipped authorities. Sorry for the detour but that case is the most classic example I am aware of that so-called outside the box thinking has completely destroyed public and also law enforcement perspective on an incredibly basic case. Many FBI types realize it was McCoy but chief investigator Ralph Himmelsbach was a clueless type so he steered the investigation elsewhere.

 

[killarney rose]

ITA. How many times have we followed cases here and there were so many way out there,” outside the box” theories, but when the case was solved, it was simple and straightforward? FLEK comes to mind as an example.Andrea, the Huntington Beach Doe was another.

 

[Magnum P.E.]

I disagree with the notion of thinking outside the box. Once that method is applied it leads to absurdity rationalized as progress. Notice that when the DNA Doe Project took over the case they said they completely ignored the sleuther theories on Canada, etc. They did the genetic research with particular focus on the best concrete variable...the ring with JPF. That should have been the sleuther undertaking all along. And it is not 20/20 hindsight. I remember posting one time on Reddit that all of the concrete variables including the location of the bodies, the shirt he was wearing, the rings she was wearing, the Bulova watch, and his ring all suggested United States. One reply was almost immediate. It was something like, "We know they were found here. But obviously they weren't from here."

That's the danger of brutal conventional wisdom once outside the box is brainwashed as the proper route. You always have to start with simple first. Don't deviate unless it's absolutely certain as wrong. For example, I would wager huge that Richard Floyd McCoy was DB Cooper. It is a simple situation in which the guy who did it the second time was also the guy who did it the first time. Anybody can pull the trigger on a gun. Virtually nobody can pull off a crime like that with hundreds of variables and in full public view for hours. That's why devaluing the connection due to irrelevancies like stewardess opinion is comical. He lost the money during the jump the first time, unprepared for the weight and unruliness. That's why a body was never found and the parachute was never found. He survived and schemed to do it again. During the interim he saw the laughable approach and theories from the FBI and rationalized that he didn't need nearly as much misdirection the second time. Consequently he parachuted nearly into his own backyard in Provo. He almost got away with that one also, except a friend got suspicious and tipped authorities. Sorry for the detour but that case is the most classic example I am aware of that so-called outside the box thinking has completely destroyed public and also law enforcement perspective on an incredibly basic case. Many FBI types realize it was McCoy but chief investigator Ralph Himmelsbach was a clueless type so he steered the investigation elsewhere.

ITA, Occam’s razor. Simplest explanation that satisfies the known facts is the most likely.

 

[Kittybunny]

Question for those following this case closer than I - are there/have there been any relatives of either of these two who have come forward to speak or share their knowledge about Pam or James since the discovery of the bodies? Or is anyone who could have shed some light on their whereabouts or how they got to where they ended now deceased?

Thanks in advance.

 

[worm]

Question for those following this case closer than I - are there/have there been any relatives of either of these two who have come forward to speak or share their knowledge about Pam or James since the discovery of the bodies? Or is anyone who could have shed some light on their whereabouts or how they got to where they ended now deceased?

Thanks in advance.

I was just thinking about the same this morning and so far, I think we can only hope for this. I’m interested to know if they may have been heard from by chance. We know that James family went to court and said he hadn’t been in contact. Just some wild idea on my part that Pamela may have called or wrote at some point.

 

[Satchie]

ITA, Occam’s razor. Simplest explanation that satisfies the known facts is the most likely.

IMO, the problem with an Occam's razor solution arises when a case isn't solved. People assume that if it was a straightforward explanation, it can be solved in a straightforward manner. If they were Americans, then of course someone in the US would identify them.

So, the logic goes, since it hasn't been solved, that must be because it isn't straightforward.

Since they were American after all, why weren't they identified? Seemingly, some combination of a) no one was looking for either of them very hard, b) no one knew they were together and c) no one knew they'd gone to the Southern US.

 

[Betty P]

IMO, the problem with an Occam's razor solution arises when a case isn't solved. People assume that if it was a straightforward explanation, it can be solved in a straightforward manner. If they were Americans, then of course someone in the US would identify them.

So, the logic goes, since it hasn't been solved, that must be because it isn't straightforward.

Since they were American after all, why weren't they identified? Seemingly, some combination of a) no one was looking for either of them very hard, b) no one knew they were together and c) no one knew they'd gone to the Southern US.

They went missing in 1975, a time when LE didn't follow up much on cases of missing adults. The families submitted missing person reports, but they somehow fell through the cracks. Connections weren't made. There was no internet back then and the families of the couple probably didn't see any news stories or photos of their deceased loved ones.

JMO, some early information about the couple speculated they might be brother and sister. That may have squelched some inquiries. Apparently, Sumter County officials did get a lot of inquiries from around the country and everyone followed up. Perhaps LE in Lancaster County, PA and Pam was from Colorado Springs, CO and Redwood County, MN. Apparently they didn't make a connection.

Things were different then. I'm not sure why this question keeps coming up.

 

[Betty P]

Question for those following this case closer than I - are there/have there been any relatives of either of these two who have come forward to speak or share their knowledge about Pam or James since the discovery of the bodies? Or is anyone who could have shed some light on their whereabouts or how they got to where they ended now deceased?

Thanks in advance.

I received a couple of private messages from someone who claimed to be close to the surviving family members. They expressed appreciation that WS members here were keeping the family members out of the discussion about Pam and James.

As more and more UID missing person and murder victim cases are being solved through DNA and genetic genealogy, JMO, there's a trend for more surviving family members to request anonymity. Sadly, there are some horrible people out there who post terrible things about surviving family members online. Some have harassed them, too.

 

[Satchie]

They went missing in 1975, a time when LE didn't follow up much on cases of missing adults. The families submitted missing person reports, but they somehow fell through the cracks. Connections weren't made. There was no internet back then and the families of the couple probably didn't see any news stories or photos of their deceased loved ones.

JMO, some early information about the couple speculated they might be brother and sister. That may have squelched some inquiries. Apparently, Sumter County officials did get a lot of inquiries from around the country and everyone followed up. Perhaps LE in Lancaster County, PA and Pam was from Colorado Springs, CO and Redwood County, MN. Apparently they didn't make a connection.

Things were different then. I'm not sure why this question keeps coming up.

Yes, for sure, now people understand why they weren't identified. But, in the past, IMO people weren't so sanguine about it. From page 1 of Thread 1 on here, the speculation jumped into their being foreign.

 

[Magnum P.E.]

IMO, the problem with an Occam's razor solution arises when a case isn't solved. People assume that if it was a straightforward explanation, it can be solved in a straightforward manner. If they were Americans, then of course someone in the US would identify them.

So, the logic goes, since it hasn't been solved, that must be because it isn't straightforward.

Since they were American after all, why weren't they identified? Seemingly, some combination of a) no one was looking for either of them very hard, b) no one knew they were together and c) no one knew they'd gone to the Southern US.

Very true. We are not guaranteed to find the right solution, or any solution at all, but as they say, if you are walking down the streets of Dodge City and you hear hoofbeats behind you, you should not turn around and expect to see a zebra. The simplest explanation is that it’s a horse. Might a zebra have escaped from the zoo? Sure. And if you are in the Serengeti, the zebra explanation might be more likely. But there is no need to come up with bad TV movie script type explanations.
I used to do magic tricks, sleight of hand stuff. I did them all through engineering school, and the easiest people to do magic tricks for were my professors, because they looked for complicated solutions. The hardest were little children, because they knew that the object I “pulled out of their ear” was really hidden on the backside of my hand the whole time.
My opinion? Well, they got to the area somehow, they seemed unlikely hitchhikers, so I think perhaps someone stole their car and belongings, and for some reason things went bad and they were shot. Or maybe they were hitchhiking and their posessions were stolen and things went bad and they were shot. YAs to who did it, I would think that LE knows or strongly suspects, but never had enough physical evidence, a witness, or a confession and so could not bring charges.

Because so much time has passed, there may never be justice.

 

[pol100gk]

Agreed. A simply solution will be the most likely in the end. Another simple solution might be that they saw something they should not have seen and were then taken away and eliminated. Under this scenario they didn't even travel together necessarily but maybe just stayed in the same motel. For a car jacking, it doesn't completely make sense to transport them in a van and then eliminate them. Once they were removed from their car, they could have just left the couple out in the wilderness.
Now that their identity is known, it might still be possible to find out if either had a car registered in their name in 1975.

 

[Satchie]

I DESPISE spreading disinformation!!! I am so sorry that I posted that thing about JPF living in Lancaster, SC!!! Horrified, really!!

Don't worry, no harm done since you've followed up.

 

[Satchie]

Now that their identity is known, it might still be possible to find out if either had a car registered in their name in 1975.

RSBM.

I was thinking about bank records, they don't usually get thrown away.

Back then, no ATMs, no inter branch banking, credit cards uncommon for young people, IMO they would probably be carrying a lot of cash. Perhaps travellers checks, but likely just cash.

Maybe someone saw one of them retrieving some cash from a hidden stash.

ETA: It seems if there were other cases of travellers being robbed by gunpoint in the area, that would have been mentioned.

 

[Kittybunny]

I received a couple of private messages from someone who claimed to be close to the surviving family members. They expressed appreciation that WS members here were keeping the family members out of the discussion about Pam and James.

As more and more UID missing person and murder victim cases are being solved through DNA and genetic genealogy, JMO, there's a trend for more surviving family members to request anonymity. Sadly, there are some horrible people out there who post terrible things about surviving family members online. Some have harassed them, too.

Thank you for the info. It's sad that a family member would be harassed - people trying to apply today's standards and resources to a completely different era - perhaps for appearing to not have tried hard enough to find the person, I presume. Understandable certainly that we haven't heard anything.