Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - Pamela Buckley & James Freund #10

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Kittybunny said:
Thank you for the info. It's sad that a family member would be harassed - people trying to apply today's standards and resources to a completely different era - perhaps for appearing to not have tried hard enough to find the person, I presume. Understandable certainly that we haven't heard anything.
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IMO, it's also related to the phenomenon of social media, that puts people's gossip and nosy opinions into a public record, instead of being expressed, as it always used to be, in private.
 
I initially found the Argentina theory interesting, but lost interest in it after a while because the more I thought about it, the more it didn't seem to fit. But I don't want to criticize people for going down that rabbit hole. If it had turned out that they really were Argentinian, we'd be wondering why we didn't pursue that angle more.

That having been said, I agree that we missed a really important clue with the JPF initials. Yes, it's true that missing persons cases in the 1970s weren't taken as seriously as they were now, and yes, the newspaper announcement seeking to have James P. Freund declared legally dead was a needle in a haystack, but the evidence was there waiting to be discovered. If there's an Occam's Razor to be gleaned from this case, it's that the letters 'JPF' on the ring really were initials and not something else. And of course, that still wouldn't have positively identified Pam.

Just my $.02.
 
Andreee said:
Just report it to the mods, maybe they will delete it.
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I thought about that... and then decided it might be wise to let others see my mistake. I will let the mods decide. Sometimes, it is wise to just own up to your mistakes and it helps others be aware of what can happen when you post too fast without fact checking adequately first.
 
Awsi Dooger said:
I disagree with the notion of thinking outside the box. Once that method is applied it leads to absurdity rationalized as progress. Notice that when the DNA Doe Project took over the case they said they completely ignored the sleuther theories on Canada, etc. They did the genetic research with particular focus on the best concrete variable...the ring with JPF. That should have been the sleuther undertaking all along. And it is not 20/20 hindsight. I remember posting one time on Reddit that all of the concrete variables including the location of the bodies, the shirt he was wearing, the rings she was wearing, the Bulova watch, and his ring all suggested United States. One reply was almost immediate. It was something like, "We know they were found here. But obviously they weren't from here."

That's the danger of brutal conventional wisdom once outside the box is brainwashed as the proper route. You always have to start with simple first. Don't deviate unless it's absolutely certain as wrong. For example, I would wager huge that Richard Floyd McCoy was DB Cooper. It is a simple situation in which the guy who did it the second time was also the guy who did it the first time. Anybody can pull the trigger on a gun. Virtually nobody can pull off a crime like that with hundreds of variables and in full public view for hours. That's why devaluing the connection due to irrelevancies like stewardess opinion is comical. He lost the money during the jump the first time, unprepared for the weight and unruliness. That's why a body was never found and the parachute was never found. He survived and schemed to do it again. During the interim he saw the laughable approach and theories from the FBI and rationalized that he didn't need nearly as much misdirection the second time. Consequently he parachuted nearly into his own backyard in Provo. He almost got away with that one also, except a friend got suspicious and tipped authorities. Sorry for the detour but that case is the most classic example I am aware of that so-called outside the box thinking has completely destroyed public and also law enforcement perspective on an incredibly basic case. Many FBI types realize it was McCoy but chief investigator Ralph Himmelsbach was a clueless type so he steered the investigation elsewhere.
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I agree with you to a certain extent that thinking outside of the box can derail an investigation because flights of fancy take over. However, it's also true what @Reannan said, too. The Canadian aspect introduced the UIDs to a completely different country. I'm Canadian. I don't know whether I would have followed this particular crime if it didn't have a possible connection to Canada. (I knew about this particular case over 20 years ago).

There's a certain cachet attached to this particular murder that piqued the interest worldwide because the 70s was the time young people from all over chose to visit America during the bicentennial. And because some people left home and never came back. Those factors came together to garner interest outside the US and this was waaay before the internet and Websleuths.

So many unidentified murder victims files lay collecting dust even though everything about them suggest regional or local deaths. Websleuths is full of them. I personally believe that this particular murder was never going to get solved until the advent of DNA and GEDMatch, even if the Canadian factor did appear to derail the investigation.
 
Betty P said:
They went missing in 1975, a time when LE didn't follow up much on cases of missing adults. The families submitted missing person reports, but they somehow fell through the cracks. Connections weren't made. There was no internet back then and the families of the couple probably didn't see any news stories or photos of their deceased loved ones.

JMO, some early information about the couple speculated they might be brother and sister. That may have squelched some inquiries. Apparently, Sumter County officials did get a lot of inquiries from around the country and everyone followed up. Perhaps LE in Lancaster County, PA and Pam was from Colorado Springs, CO and Redwood County, MN. Apparently they didn't make a connection.

Things were different then. I'm not sure why this question keeps coming up.
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There was even a couple who disagreed whether Pamela was their missing daughter. So if a parent isn't sure if a deceased individual is their own flesh and blood then it doesn't take much to suggest that perhaps the victims weren't local and after several years weren't even American.
 
branmuffin said:
. I personally believe that this particular murder was never going to get solved until the advent of DNA and GEDMatch, even if the Canadian factor did appear to derail the investigation.
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Agree. The couple were left with so little information to identify them, it wouldn't have happened without the DNA project. By the time technology advanced to where their photos could be widely disseminated, loved ones and friends had passed on or forgotten the details. So much time had passed. Add to that, they were killed in a place so far from their homes.

Agree also on going down rabbit holes. I've followed many cold cases here and its easy to do.
 
I was just reading Wiki's list of formerly unidentified Does. Pam and James are there but there is information on it that as far as I know has never been verified. It says:
"Originally speculated to have been dating, it turned out the two individuals had met each other while hitchhiking."

Where is this information coming from?
 
Satchie said:
Ridgeway pleaded guilty.
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Here's a couple:

Shawn Grate convicted of murdering a Jane Doe (now identified in 2019 as Dana Lowrey) He was indicted and charged with murdering her, then waddled into court and pleaded guilty to the act.
Marion County 'Jane Doe' identified; convicted killer Shawn Grate confessed to her murder (news5cleveland.com)

Joseph Wayne Burnette who was indicted in 2018 for the 2006 murder of Websleuth's named "Lavender Jane Doe" (she was identified via genetic genealogy as Dana Lynn Dodd in November 2019 [after he was charged and set to stand trial / he pled 'not guilty'])
When Internet Sleuths Solved a Murder Mystery - The Atlantic

George Newsome charged with and convicted in 1983 of the 1981 murder of "Brooks County Jane Doe" who was identified as Shirlene Cheryl Hammack in 2020. He died in prison while serving a life sentence in 1988.
Georgia Jane Doe murder victim identified by DNA almost 40 years after killing - ABC News (go.com)

David Marvin Roth who was charged with and convicted in the 1977 murder of "Precious Jane Doe" who was finally identified 43 years later as Lisa Roberts.
Solved: For 43 years, she was ‘Precious’ Jane Doe | HeraldNet.com
 
branmuffin said:
I'm aware of that but people treat Wikipedia as if it's gospel. It just gives you an idea of how information can be grossly inaccurate when any Tom, Dick and Harry update information on Wiki without having to provide any references.
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During the Sherriff's Press Conference in announcing their identities, he stated that they had met while hitch-hiking.

Many of us speculated back then as to exactly how he "knew" this or whether it was just speculation on his part. That's where the wiki is getting that information from and I do believe it has a link to the presser in the sources it cites.

If it's "factual" (and not Sheriff's speculation) that they indeed met hitch-hiking, there's got to be some information that we aren't privy to that he is using to back that up (which a bunch of us discussed back then) ... perhaps, once they had been identified, they spoke to those who had reported them missing (JF's ex-wife etc), or friends of one or the other of them, and gleaned info from one of them that they were 'travelling around with this guy/gal I met hitch-hiking' etc. Or, in that Christmas day call to the ex-wife to talk to his daughter she asked when he was going to get his butt down there to visit his daughter and he stated something like, "nah, just met a great girl out hitch-hiking and we're going to do some travelling together, so it will be a while".

Maybe ex-wife mentioned something on her missing report when she reported him missing such as, "Missing individual's last contact on December 25th 1975, when JPF called ex-wife and stated he was travelling with unknown female companion he had met while hitch-hiking".

(And even with the above, I don't take that statement to deem factual that they were BOTH hitch-hiking. If JPF had a car and stopped to pick her up, they'd still qualify as "met while hitch-hiking" or "a Hitch-hiker I met" or "I met her out hitch-hiking". IMO).

All purely speculation, we just don't know.
 
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Vern said:
During the Sherriff's Press Conference in announcing their identities, he stated that they had met while hitch-hiking.

Many of us speculated back then as to exactly how he "knew" this or whether it was just speculation on his part. That's where the wiki is getting that information from and I do believe it has a link to the presser in the sources it cites.

If it's "factual" (and not Sheriff's speculation) that they indeed met hitch-hiking, there's got to be some information that we aren't privy to that he is using to back that up (which a bunch of us discussed back then) ... perhaps, once they had been identified, they spoke to those who had reported them missing (JF's ex-wife etc), or friends of one or the other of them, and gleaned info from one of them that they were 'travelling around with this guy/gal I met hitch-hiking' etc. Or, in that Christmas day call to the ex-wife to talk to his daughter she asked when he was going to get his butt down there to visit his daughter and he stated something like, "nah, just met a great girl out hitch-hiking and we're going to do some travelling together, so it will be a while".

Maybe ex-wife mentioned something on her missing report when she reported him missing such as, "Missing individual's last contact on December 25th 1975, when JPF called ex-wife and stated he was travelling with unknown female companion he had met while hitch-hiking".

(And even with the above, I don't take that statement to deem factual that they were BOTH hitch-hiking. If JPF had a car and stopped to pick her up, they'd still qualify as "met while hitch-hiking" or "a Hitch-hiker I met" or "I met her out hitch-hiking". IMO).

All purely speculation, we just don't know.
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Vern said:
During the Sherriff's Press Conference in announcing their identities, he stated that they had met while hitch-hiking.

Many of us speculated back then as to exactly how he "knew" this or whether it was just speculation on his part. That's where the wiki is getting that information from and I do believe it has a link to the presser in the sources it cites.

If it's "factual" (and not Sheriff's speculation) that they indeed met hitch-hiking, there's got to be some information that we aren't privy to that he is using to back that up (which a bunch of us discussed back then) ... perhaps, once they had been identified, they spoke to those who had reported them missing (JF's ex-wife etc), or friends of one or the other of them, and gleaned info from one of them that they were 'travelling around with this guy/gal I met hitch-hiking' etc. Or, in that Christmas day call to the ex-wife to talk to his daughter she asked when he was going to get his butt down there to visit his daughter and he stated something like, "nah, just met a great girl out hitch-hiking and we're going to do some travelling together, so it will be a while".

Maybe ex-wife mentioned something on her missing report when she reported him missing such as, "Missing individual's last contact on December 25th 1975, when JPF called ex-wife and stated he was travelling with unknown female companion he had met while hitch-hiking".

(And even with the above, I don't take that statement to deem factual that they were BOTH hitch-hiking. If JPF had a car and stopped to pick her up, they'd still qualify as "met while hitch-hiking" or "a Hitch-hiker I met" or "I met her out hitch-hiking". IMO).

All purely speculation, we just don't know.
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I don't think the sheriff knew either. It's all speculation, imo. If anyone knows that Pam and James met while hitchhiking then that info has been known for over 40 years.
 
branmuffin said:
I don't think the sheriff knew either. It's all speculation, imo. If anyone knows that Pam and James met while hitchhiking then that info has been known for over 40 years.
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Maybe not Branmuffin. One or both of the families may have heard this by phone or s-mail from either of the victims before they were killed. LE does not share everything with us.
 
Magnum P.E. said:
Maybe not Branmuffin. One or both of the families may have heard this by phone or s-mail from either of the victims before they were killed. LE does not share everything with us.
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Anything is possible. But after 45 years, if LE knew back then that they were hitchhikers I'm sure they would have released that information to the public, even if it was a last ditch effort to identify the dead.

And it seems since the release of the names of the Sumter Does that people are suggesting that both families reported them missing, when neither of them were in any missing persons reports going back from when LE really started being interested in documenting missing persons instead of assuming that adults had a right to disappear off the face of the earth. The first time I saw evidence of Pam being reported missing was back in December of last year and this was after the family had been advised as to the identity of the Sumter Does. That's not to say that either family had no interest in finding their loved ones, they were stymied by the lack of cooperation in LE and impeded by the lack of technology that now can provide data instantly to out of state LE agencies.
 
branmuffin said:
Anything is possible. But after 45 years, if LE knew back then that they were hitchhikers I'm sure they would have released that information to the public, even if it was a last ditch effort to identify the dead.
...
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RSBM.

I don't think the Sherriff knew back then how they met just as he didn't know who they were.

We know they were both reported missing. Now that their identities have been discovered, the Sherriff is actually able to look back at those missing persons reports or statements from family/friends given at the time (ie: circumstances of disappearance/last known contact) we can't see and don't have access to. perhaps there was mention of "last known contact was Christmas day when he called to talk to our daughter; he said he was with some girl he had met hitch-hiking". It's really not that difficult to believe.

He's also able to talk to persons who knew each of them at the time they disappeared.

He knows more than we do.

He made that statement during a presser. I'm akin to trust that he(the expert who is involved in the case and sees the evidence) had reason to do so.

I'm still not taking his testament to mean that "both" of them were hitch-hiking. Just that they met while hitching. One could have picked up the other.
 
worldwatcher said:
Just wondering,long shot, I know, but do you think the killer (tried to) used their IDs?
It does seem easy, though by looking at drivers licences around that time..
16 Vintage Drivers' Licenses of Celebrities from 1960s to 1970s
I tried to search in NC, in newspapers (given the fact, that the gun really was stolen there and probably was the murder weapon, wich I am convinced, 80/90%, also due to the polygraph test, that implied Lonnie was lying about something or cover for someone when asked if he knew, who pulled the trigger)
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That's a very interesting link. According to the photo Robert De Niro really was a New York City Taxi Driver.
 
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