Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[stattlich1]

I thought of you when I read this today:

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County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

Q. Are there regrets about not securing the Morning Heights Cemetery as a possible part of the crime scene (i.e. possible exit route of the killer(s)?

A. At the time, it was uncertain exactly what the “totality of the circumstances” were.

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He's a bit evasive here, but I don't think parking or exiting via the cemetery has necessarily been ruled out. JMO

I don't know if he parked in that cemetery or not. If I was the one planning a murder in that location, that's exactly where I'd park. From there, I'm confident a person can walk to the entry side of the bridge, the northwest side, through the woods, without being seen, never having to cross the creek. I'm also confident a person could find a spot that would give a commanding view of the approach to the bridge. A person could watch who's coming down that trail, and crossing that bridge. In fact, that person could enter the trail, look right and see if there were any other people coming along, then cut left, and walk a brisk walk across that bridge and entrap those girls.

From there it's down the hill, cross the creek, commit the crime, head back up to the cemetery, and I'm outta there. Take a right leaving that cemetery and I'm in Indiana farm country.

That whole scenario is probably wrong, but it just makes sense to me. It makes more sense than parking in the wide open, passing others along the way, and then doing what? Hiding in the woods from there, awaiting a potential target? I guess that's possible too.

The thing is, parking at an easily visible spot could be, in my mind, evidence that he really didn't plan to murder two girls that day. I mean, why would you risk it? Why risk being seen?

 

[Ravenmoon]

I like to put 3 questions here:
Who in general is most likely to be forgiven for strange behavior, let us say: for the/his last 15-20 years?
What qualities do you have to have in order for people to excuse strange behavior?
What connections to upper-graded people do you have to reach to be forgiven strange behavior?
(I'm speaking of a curriculum vitae before the Delphi crime.)
There is a certain reason, that LE (DC?) said, the locals would be shocked, when they will learn the truth (similar wording).

I don't have answers to your questions , sadly.
I will say this-
It's my experience that people with money and/ or positions that are considered "elite" are automatically held to less stringent standards than a person that is disadvantaged.
Society seems to often times respect someone that has money , even if they are not familiar with why that person is in such a position.


Do I think 100 percent of the population feels this way?
Of course not- but this is how society operates.

So, if we look at people based on that criteria ( who would be forgiven) I would suggest looking at the more elite individuals in the area.

 

[carbuff]

I don't know if he parked in that cemetery or not. If I was the one planning a murder in that location, that's exactly where I'd park. From there, I'm confident a person can walk to the entry side of the bridge, the northwest side, through the woods, without being seen, never having to cross the creek. I'm also confident a person could find a spot that would give a commanding view of the approach to the bridge. A person could watch who's coming down that trail, and crossing that bridge. In fact, that person could enter the trail, look right and see if there were any other people coming along, then cut left, and walk a brisk walk across that bridge and entrap those girls.

From there it's down the hill, cross the creek, commit the crime, head back up to the cemetery, and I'm outta there. Take a right leaving that cemetery and I'm in Indiana farm country.

That whole scenario is probably wrong, but it just makes sense to me. It makes more sense than parking in the wide open, passing others along the way, and then doing what? Hiding in the woods from there, awaiting a potential target? I guess that's possible too.

The thing is, parking at an easily visible spot could be, in my mind, evidence that he really didn't plan to murder two girls that day. I mean, why would you risk it? Why risk being seen?

Because for whatever reason that's where you're supposed to be? Or because it wouldn't be surprising that you're in that place?

 

[TL4S]

I don't know if he parked in that cemetery or not. If I was the one planning a murder in that location, that's exactly where I'd park. From there, I'm confident a person can walk to the entry side of the bridge, the northwest side, through the woods, without being seen, never having to cross the creek. I'm also confident a person could find a spot that would give a commanding view of the approach to the bridge. A person could watch who's coming down that trail, and crossing that bridge. In fact, that person could enter the trail, look right and see if there were any other people coming along, then cut left, and walk a brisk walk across that bridge and entrap those girls.

From there it's down the hill, cross the creek, commit the crime, head back up to the cemetery, and I'm outta there. Take a right leaving that cemetery and I'm in Indiana farm country.

That whole scenario is probably wrong, but it just makes sense to me. It makes more sense than parking in the wide open, passing others along the way, and then doing what? Hiding in the woods from there, awaiting a potential target? I guess that's possible too.

The thing is, parking at an easily visible spot could be, in my mind, evidence that he really didn't plan to murder two girls that day. I mean, why would you risk it? Why risk being seen?

I fully agree. It's all dependent on how much planning was involved. Bear with me...

My inclination is that if he had planned this out and was waiting for a victim, he would have parked on the gravel road south of the bridge, then either crossed the bridge and entered the trails, or stayed hidden at the south end until somebody crossed. There'd be no creek crossing, fewer chances of him or his vehicle being seen, and plenty of isolated places to lead them sw of the bridge with easy access back to his vehicle.

Parking at the cemetary does make a lot of sense, except for crossing the creek, which I guess I need to let go of because maybe to the killer that was not a big deal.

But here's my dilemma... none of the scenarios that involve him planning the crime really make sense to me. The location is isolated, yes, but how long would he wait around? The perfect opportunity may not have presented itself for days and days? The witnesses apparently saw the men who were the sources of the sketches on the day of the crime, per TL in the Comet Q&A. Did he go unnoticed during his preperation phase and any other days hunting, if he had them?

IDK, these thoughts keep me leaning towards this being an unplanned event. One could argue that if he drove by, heading east, and saw them dropped off, the cemetary would then be a logical parking place even if it was completely opportunistic. I'd still be asking what reason he had to be on 300 rd.

 

[MistyWaters]

If he is, and I hope he doesn’t, I’d sincerely advise him to stop watching, develop some hobby unrelated to computers or even praying alone, something distracting him from imaginary world, never spend the time alone, be with people even if they irritate him, and the moment he “mentally goes” there, switch to other hobbies. Even mentally. The more people focus on their thinking, the more drawn into it they become. If he, indeed, is religious and does not want to commit another murder. (And if he is truly religious - Anna’s words about not having baptized her daughter should add to his guilt, which could be immense).

Seriously, the killer is being advised to focus away from the crime he committed through various diversions? Surely I’m misunderstanding???

I’d say the opposite - the right thing for him to do is to turn himself in order to free himself from his secrets. The ever-lurking possibility that LE are about to knock on his door today, tomorrow, next month or next year, will never go away. It will fester and eventually rot inside him. Not knowing what LE knows, even if he thinks he got away with it, he’s still forced to keep his ear to the ground. One could say he’s still held captive although not yet incarcerated. That’s a good thing until an arrest is made IMO — much like invisible bindings.

JMO

 

[stattlich1]

Because for whatever reason that's where you're supposed to be? Or because it wouldn't be surprising that you're in that place?

That's interesting. Share more. I think what you are saying is, if he were locally known, it would not be unusual for him to be where he was?

As TL45 just said "The witnesses apparently saw the men who were the sources of the sketches on the day of the crime".

Do we know for a fact this witness saw this person, the one who resulted in the BG2 sketch, on the trails?

I mean, LE has to be fairly confident that BG2 sketch guy was seen on or about the trails. Or they have some other bit of evidence that connects him to the trail.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

I'm pretty sure nobody on this site, or elsewhere, has with any accuracy, described the scene in any way close to what was in fact found there. I don't think that has been nailed down by any of us. When they say odd, unusual, signatures, not what you'd expect, I think we're all way off the beam in terms of what this killer left behind.

That's just my opinion.

With that being said, I do think he is/was physically fit. I think he is physically strong. Upper body strength. A farm boy, athlete, football player, swimmer, weight lifter. I don't think he has any physical disorder that would be readily apparent walking in a crowd. Keen eyesight, determined, focused, organized, ruthless, murderer.

Anyway, my colleagues, over the years, we've had great discussions relative to the nature/nurture, or determinist/free will debates.

I always like to take the side that believes all behavior is choice. It may be disturbed, or affected, by ones experience, or by drug/alcohol abuse, or chemical imbalance, but the act of behaving remains the choice of he or she that engages in it. For me to believe otherwise means that some other entity has taken over a person, and that person has lost the power of choice in behaving, and has given up that power to some other power that is acting within the person.

I always liked to ask my clients, if you didn't do it, then who did? The answer will give a quick psychoanalysis of the individual, for sure. If the answer is someone else is operating inside me, then a good follow up question would be to say, that's interesting, tell me more about this person. We clearly, at that point, have entered the realm of psychosis, multiple personality disorder, etc.

I will remain confident that BG knew what he was doing that day. He planned it, and acted upon it. He came prepared. I suspect he had the layout of the land all figured out, he was familiar with it. He knew his entry, his exit, his approach, his destination. I just don't think it was random.

And he has nerves of steel. He has kept his mouth shut. Either that, or he is being protected. Or he is dead.

If it is the former, the ability to keep his mouth shut, then IMO he has quite a strong conscience. He knows what he did was wrong, and he wants to avoid the punishment for doing it.

110% agree here, @stattlich1! Great analysis.

ETA: Yes -- behavior is a choice (unless, of course, someone is acting under the power of some other entity...). JMOO.

 

[TL4S]

That's interesting. Share more. I think what you are saying is, if he were locally known, it would not be unusual for him to be where he was?

As TL45 just said "The witnesses apparently saw the men who were the sources of the sketches on the day of the crime".

Do we know for a fact this witness saw this person, the one who resulted in the BG2 sketch, on the trails?

I mean, LE has to be fairly confident that BG2 sketch guy was seen on or about the trails. Or they have some other bit of evidence that connects him to the trail.

TL's quote from the Comet:

These were produced by information gained from witnesses near the area during time frame. The primary focus by investigators is on the second sketch.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

I don't have answers to your questions , sadly.
I will say this-
It's my experience that people with money and/ or positions that are considered "elite" are automatically held to less stringent standards than a person that is disadvantaged.
Society seems to often times respect someone that has money , even if they are not familiar with why that person is in such a position.


Do I think 100 percent of the population feels this way?
Of course not- but this is how society operates.

So, if we look at people based on that criteria ( who would be forgiven) I would suggest looking at the more elite individuals in the area.

BBM

This ^^^.

Still thinking this killer is local (i. e., within the general vicinity). Still think that he's very intelligent (killer nods to himself while reading this...) in tending to all kinds of details at the CS (things none of *us* know about). And...still think he's being "covered for" by someone... (still thinking that that "someone" is still...terrified. Very.)

Oh, and is someone whom no one local would dream of doing such a thing... (call it "elite", in a "protected class", etc.) All just MOO.

 

[Ravenmoon]

That's interesting. Share more. I think what you are saying is, if he were locally known, it would not be unusual for him to be where he was?

As TL45 just said "The witnesses apparently saw the men who were the sources of the sketches on the day of the crime".

Do we know for a fact this witness saw this person, the one who resulted in the BG2 sketch, on the trails?

I mean, LE has to be fairly confident that BG2 sketch guy was seen on or about the trails. Or they have some other bit of evidence that connects him to the trail.

Hope I don't get in trouble , because I do not have the source readily available.

If I am wrong, I will be happy to be corrected.

Sketch number 2 was created by a witness that was in the area that day. It was held back, but I do not know why- or if that was ever clarified.

Sketch Number 1 was a group effort by possibly more than one person near the area AND attempts by certain artists (maybe LE sketch artists ? sorry not sure) to combine efforts in producing what they believed the killer to look like based on the photos from Libby's phone.

That sketch took several months to be released.

AMOO JMO MOO

EBM to add a sentence.

 

[carbuff]

That's interesting. Share more. I think what you are saying is, if he were locally known, it would not be unusual for him to be where he was?

As TL45 just said "The witnesses apparently saw the men who were the sources of the sketches on the day of the crime".

Do we know for a fact this witness saw this person, the one who resulted in the BG2 sketch, on the trails?

I mean, LE has to be fairly confident that BG2 sketch guy was seen on or about the trails. Or they have some other bit of evidence that connects him to the trail.

There's not a lot more to share. I was trying to think of reasons why he would park in an obvious place if he was planning to commit a murder. I guess for a cemetery it would include somebody visiting a grave, or somebody mowing or planting flowers or doing other maintenance, or getting ready for a funeral, or something like that. The kind of person who's so low key that people might not even remember they saw him there.

 

[photographer4]

Ya know, we really don't know where exactly LE found the phone in question - it occurs to me that maybe BG told Libby to get rid of it? Maybe he didn't know he was recorded on it already and didn't check, but also didn't want anyone using find my iphone or any other similar locating software to lead straight to them / him? Maybe he straight up told her to throw it away so she couldn't try for 911?

 

[Charlot123]

So I fell into a rabbit hole.
I want to send an email to the tip line, but I don’t have clear cut evidence but I do have a near identical photo to the 1st sketch, that wasn’t released until 2019.
I would HATE to waste their precious time and money.
I really just do not know what to do.

ETA: I at the very least think that LE should see the photos.

Trust your own intuition.

I never tipped the line because I never had a very strong intuitive feeling about the perpetrator. Logical, yes, but not intuitive. Maybe I am too far from Delphi to feel anything.

Intuition is a very strong component, if you have it, it might mean something.

P.S. on that bridgehunter site, everyone leaves their names, except for “Luke”. Who made the 3d panorama of the bridge. Why? What do you think of it?

 

[Charlot123]

Echoing what others have said....it will be shocking when this individual is caught because no one thinks their town could harbor such a depraved person capable of an act like this. "It couldn't happen here." But every murderer, even every serial killer, had to come from somewhere and it can't always be a big city. It doesn't really need to be a person with high status to be shocking IMO.

Edited to add...I don't know whether the killer is from the Delphi community or not, but wherever he comes from there will be people saying "how could one of ours do that?" So that's part of the shocking piece that TL speaks to IMO.

I have the feeling that BG is a person who is big in charity. Not because he likes it. Simply, deep inside, he doesn’t have a well-formed opinion about himself, if anything, he sees the “man without a face”. Charity would give him the name of “the helper”, and also, bring friends.

By charity I mean personal, not professional one, endeavor.

 

[stattlich1]

There's not a lot more to share. I was trying to think of reasons why he would park in an obvious place if he was planning to commit a murder. I guess for a cemetery it would include somebody visiting a grave, or somebody mowing or planting flowers or doing other maintenance, or getting ready for a funeral, or something like that. The kind of person who's so low key that people might not even remember they saw him there.

Look at route 300 on a map. It is a rural road. It is not heavily traveled. Not at all. I don't think he had to worry about being seen parked in that cemetery at all. I don't think anybody even knew he was there. I think a person could park there for several hours on a February day and not a soul would ever know. It's even been reported you can not see a car parked to the rear of that cemetery from road 300.

 

[carbuff]

Look at route 300 on a map. It is a rural road. It is not heavily traveled. Not at all. I don't think he had to worry about being seen parked in that cemetery at all. I don't think anybody even knew he was there. I think a person could park there for several hours on a February day and not a soul would ever know. It's even been reported you can not see a car parked to the rear of that cemetery from road 300.

My map isn't showing traffic, so I'll have to take your word on that one. Without being there, there's no way to tell how much local travel there is.

 

[stattlich1]

My map isn't showing traffic, so I'll have to take your word on that one. Without being there, there's no way to tell how much local travel there is.

I was a local elected official for a bit more than a 6 year term. Road classification is based on, among other things, traffic. I can assure you that the traffic on road 300 is minimal. The road has the lowest classification possible in terms of traffic and/or use.

It would be a rural Indiana road, not even considered a minor collector. It is a very low traffic road.

ArcGIS Web Application

 

[Falling Down]

Look at route 300 on a map. It is a rural road. It is not heavily traveled. Not at all. I don't think he had to worry about being seen parked in that cemetery at all. I don't think anybody even knew he was there. I think a person could park there for several hours on a February day and not a soul would ever know. It's even been reported you can not see a car parked to the rear of that cemetery from road 300.

Again, I have to emphasize in order to know all of what is in the post, BG had to have visited the area previously, perhaps many times. Factor in the time of year, and the fact the Anderson's facility was not in use that day, and one can see that the traffic on the road would be minimal, I'd describe it as a low-traffic shortcut into and out of Delphi, into the countryside near that town.

So my guess would be he had to have researched, and even monitored online, activity at the bridge area. Not only web pages dedicated to the bridge and trail (minimal before the murders), videos posted online (YT, etc.), news reports, etc. He would have had to have gone out there to make observations, then kind of put it all together.

JMO

 

[carbuff]

I was a local elected official for a bit more than a 6 year term. Road classification is based on, among other things, traffic. I can assure you that the traffic on road 300 is minimal. The road has the lowest classification possible in terms of traffic and/or use.

It would be a rural Indiana road, not even considered a minor collector. It is a very low traffic road.

ArcGIS Web Application

Thanks for the info!

 

[Charlot123]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

With the gait, I am on the fence. Nothing should make the person lift the thigh to make a step, if over an old plank. This is where I intuitively feel that something is wrong. But I can imagine that if he had some long knife under the jeans, and was balancing the knife, and the bridge, then, it could have created an odd gait. DC said not to look at the gait, but look at the "mannerisms", which made we everything even worse - if the gait is not a giveaway, then, how could the mannerisms be, given that the guy might be wearing a "kill suit", totally masking his figure? And then, he said to look at the body of the BG with the YBG's head.