Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[Wolverbear]

Lately I've had two issues at the forefront of my mind regarding Delphi.

First, regarding BG's blue jacket. TL fielded a question in the second part (IIRC, perhaps it was part one however) of the Q & A with the Comet regarding the blue jacket. Paraphrasing, TL said that they have had many jackets turned in but not THE blue jacket. This leads to believe they have some way of identifying said jacket if it were to surface. So what could realistically allow LE to have a degree of confidence that they'll know the right jacket? Do they believe the jacket to have forensic evidence on it (i.e. blood) that would link it? Was a piece of the jacket torn off during a struggle and recovered at the scene (thus they're looking for a jacket that is uniquely damaged)? Perhaps there are more identifying markers on it that LE knows due to seeing the entire video? Would love to hear thoughts on the jacket and ways that LE could feel confident they'll know it when they/if they see it.

As a sidenote: I often wonder if once BG was alerted to having been filmed on the bridge if all the clothes we see him wearing have long since been destroyed.

Second, and I am not bringing DN up in terms of a POI so stick with me for a second. We know that LE sent investigators to Colorado to meet with and try to obtain a DNA sample (to my knowledge, if I am wrong please lmk) from DN pretty quickly upon his arrest. They eventually ruled him out as a POI for Delphi but it begs the question for me...was there something more than DN committing a trail crime that got their attention so quickly? I start to look at aspects of the incident such as threatening people on the trail with a hatchet. Could the type of weapon have been a red flag to Delphi investigators? Was it the type of car he was living out of (perhaps it matched generally a car that was reported near MHB combined with the trail setting of the crime? I feel there had to be something slightly more than "this guy committed a crime on a hiking trail" that made LE travel to meet with him. Obviously I could be wrong but I go back to their actions around the DN case and ask myself what could we potentially glean regarding Delphi that investigators saw in Colorado? Personally my mind has a hard time letting go of the type of weapon (a hatchet), I have long wondered if they thought the type of attack AND the weapon used matched Delphi too closely to not go look at. Again, would love to hear thoughts (but please not about DN himself or if he is BG as LE has ruled him out to my knowledge) about what we could possible learn about the Delphi investigation from the reaction to his case/crimes.

 

[Beachlife926]

MOO Snapchat was a popular app and talking to a teen in their app is something I would see a parent doing.
The fact that a screen shot would preserve the images that were supposed to disappear wasn't widely known yet. Also IIRC the company server retained the images for a while so a subpeona could retrieve them.

I don’t think it’s Snapchat related but wanted to share that Snapchat notified the user if a screenshot was taken. Although I found a workaround when googling, at the time it wasn’t widely known (not sure if it is now as I’m not up to date on those things anymore).

 

[sunshineray]

Good point. Certain people stubbornly refuse to let go of their pet theories even when those theories have been disproved. I guess those people have too much mental energy invested in those theories and just can't handle owning up to their mistakes.

That's a bit harshly worded in categorizing people who continue to feel more open-mindedness about many different aspects of these murders.

LE can't possibly know for certain, since there's been no arrest of a culpable person, what the killer's motivation for going there, being on the trails that day was and therefore cannot be certain of how much thought the killer put into his actions...before he got there, when he got there and when he pick a target.

A crime of opportunity doesn't mean zero thought was behind the killer's actions.

 

[Spartygirl]

What you write sure reminds me of the behaviours of teen girls as well, for whatever reason they have a high need to talk about what everybody is doing or planning 24/7. I’m not insisting the killer was aware of their plans in advance and took the opportunity to stalk them but I do have a hard time believing the girls didn’t communicate their intentions with anybody during that night of the sleepover.

One reason.... initially BP said the girls weren’t allowed to go unless they were successful in arranging a ride back and forth in advance. But later she retracted that, instead the pickup by DG was arranged at the same time as KG dropped off the girls. BP went on to say Libby knew her father would never say “no” or something like that, so arranging the ride back home wouldn’t have been a problem. This was from a podcast and I’m sorry, I don’t recall which one. But for me it illustrated getting a ride wasn’t the obstacle as it might’ve initially appeared.

So I don’t quite understand why BP continually insists the girls’ plan to go to the trail was made suddenly, that no one else knew. How can she know for sure? If other teens did in fact know, would they feel free to say so, would they be believed?

JMO

BBM-
Just remembering when I was a kid and made plans without asking until last minute.
My daughters did same thing.
I can see Libby and Abby making plans night before if not even before that, but not asking for a ride until just before leaving.
Which is why BP would say it was spontaneous, as she only found out right before they left, and did not know of previous plans.
JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

Lately I've had two issues at the forefront of my mind regarding Delphi.

First, regarding BG's blue jacket. TL fielded a question in the second part (IIRC, perhaps it was part one however) of the Q & A with the Comet regarding the blue jacket. Paraphrasing, TL said that they have had many jackets turned in but not THE blue jacket. This leads to believe they have some way of identifying said jacket if it were to surface. So what could realistically allow LE to have a degree of confidence that they'll know the right jacket? Do they believe the jacket to have forensic evidence on it (i.e. blood) that would link it? Was a piece of the jacket torn off during a struggle and recovered at the scene (thus they're looking for a jacket that is uniquely damaged)? Perhaps there are more identifying markers on it that LE knows due to seeing the entire video? Would love to hear thoughts on the jacket and ways that LE could feel confident they'll know it when they/if they see it.

As a sidenote: I often wonder if once BG was alerted to having been filmed on the bridge if all the clothes we see him wearing have long since been destroyed.

Second, and I am not bringing DN up in terms of a POI so stick with me for a second. We know that LE sent investigators to Colorado to meet with and try to obtain a DNA sample (to my knowledge, if I am wrong please lmk) from DN pretty quickly upon his arrest. They eventually ruled him out as a POI for Delphi but it begs the question for me...was there something more than DN committing a trail crime that got their attention so quickly? I start to look at aspects of the incident such as threatening people on the trail with a hatchet. Could the type of weapon have been a red flag to Delphi investigators? Was it the type of car he was living out of (perhaps it matched generally a car that was reported near MHB combined with the trail setting of the crime? I feel there had to be something slightly more than "this guy committed a crime on a hiking trail" that made LE travel to meet with him. Obviously I could be wrong but I go back to their actions around the DN case and ask myself what could we potentially glean regarding Delphi that investigators saw in Colorado? Personally my mind has a hard time letting go of the type of weapon (a hatchet), I have long wondered if they thought the type of attack AND the weapon used matched Delphi too closely to not go look at. Again, would love to hear thoughts (but please not about DN himself or if he is BG as LE has ruled him out to my knowledge) about what we could possible learn about the Delphi investigation from the reaction to his case/crimes.

Re: a possible similarity or similarities to features of a Colorado crime scene - I have always thought this. There is something about the Colorado crime that was thought to be a possible linkage. (Disproven now of course.)

 

[Spartygirl]

I think everyone’s theories can contribute to this case of unknowns. Even if the theory is so far out there, something may spark a really good idea of what happened. (Except for the implication of a pet doing this). Keeping this case in everyone’s mind is what is important. Let’s all keep talking about what theory we believe may be what happened and someone close to BG may see it and find something relevant and connect this case to them.

Thank you for saying this way better/nicer than I was going to.

 

[Spartygirl]

Everyone's theories that are based on known, demonstrable facts can absolutely contribute to the overall body of knowledge, awareness and possibilities in this case. But, this is a fact-based forum and theories that are based on incorrect information, improper understanding of facts, or rumor should be called out as such and the information corrected. JMO

I think the frustration arises when LE appears to confirm certain facts/rumors but posters disregard those statements or twist them in order to fit pet theories.

For example, we have TL confirming that based on the facts that are known to him that the girls were killed where they were found. (Carroll County Comet Q&A). Yet I guarantee you that in a few days or weeks someone will re-introduce the topic of whether they were killed in a shack or killed somewhere else and brought back in the dead of night, and so forth.

Yeppers... and I have thought that all along so I was glad to hear TL say that.
I still have friends sending me shack and barn photos asking if the girls could have been there.
I refer them to TL's comment.

 

[Spartygirl]

knows a daughter best.

Agree. Many apparently kill once, realize they were lucky and focus on hiding their crime from then on.[/QUOTE]
Which I am trying to remember-- did we ever have an expert or FBI profile for BG ??
I know a lot of profilers say if it was first murder, BG could have had previous crimes just not murder.
some say murderers have killed before.
some say they have killed animals before killing a person.
I know it has been 4 yrs and I cant remember if a profile was done ... heck, I cant even remember what I did last night LOL

 

[minazoe]

brings me back to..

was BG mentioned by the girls as that 'weird guy" not from earlier on the trail but from earlier maybe at the store or the other day by the school or from ' just around"?

because they didn't know his name or who he was doesn't mean he wasn't checking them out and keeping an eye on them, it's a small town and as some one who blends right in he does not stand out ..but has he been there always? does he live there? does he breeze through?

or did he just go there on a whim..? I just don't think it was just a whim and quick decision because of the things we see in the photograph..lumps and items appear to be stuffed inside his pockets inside the actual jacket, possibly his pants, and possibly around his neck some white cables or cords..and again I still believe he may have a camera rig.

So it doesn't seem like oh I see these here girls and I just happen to have this gun...no he was suited up...so this makes me wonder if when he was seen earlier was he clanking along with all this stuff on him? or...did he have a car where he could retrieve these items once he
got his eye on his quarry?

what if all the stuff in his coat was personal stuff because he had nowhere to live? he had a gun, did he use it? i'm sure they can make out that gun by the outline and have a good idea what type of gun was in that pocket...still hard to track down a gun based on the outline. but they might have spent casings..if he used the gun. could have been a fake gun too.

so they think he then escaped through the woods..where to? he had to go somewhere..so if he did this on a whim then what did he do to get away? if he was homeless maybe he went to another encampment area near there..or some hidden place he was sleeping.. I personally loved our one poi that had been thrown out of his house and was an angry mess sleeping out in the park areas ( kind of temporarily homeless) but he didn't pan out. Also I don't think this is a homeless person because I feel like he was just too neatly out of the picture..

what they say about this crime scene and what they say about the crime is at odds.

how do we have a complex many faceted crime scene with several signatures and a great deal of evidence when they claim this was a crime of opportunity and happened on a whim?
a crime where the stars aligned and this random murder happened.

I don't believe it ...I think there was planning, and a car and a camera involved and I think he went straight home after, cleaned up and watched it unfold on tv.

mOO

 

[Kittybunny]

Lately I've had two issues at the forefront of my mind regarding Delphi.

Respectfully snipped by me for focus

Second, and I am not bringing DN up in terms of a POI so stick with me for a second. We know that LE sent investigators to Colorado to meet with and try to obtain a DNA sample (to my knowledge, if I am wrong please lmk) from DN pretty quickly upon his arrest. They eventually ruled him out as a POI for Delphi but it begs the question for me...was there something more than DN committing a trail crime that got their attention so quickly? I start to look at aspects of the incident such as threatening people on the trail with a hatchet. Could the type of weapon have been a red flag to Delphi investigators? Was it the type of car he was living out of (perhaps it matched generally a car that was reported near MHB combined with the trail setting of the crime? I feel there had to be something slightly more than "this guy committed a crime on a hiking trail" that made LE travel to meet with him. Obviously I could be wrong but I go back to their actions around the DN case and ask myself what could we potentially glean regarding Delphi that investigators saw in Colorado? Personally my mind has a hard time letting go of the type of weapon (a hatchet), I have long wondered if they thought the type of attack AND the weapon used matched Delphi too closely to not go look at. Again, would love to hear thoughts (but please not about DN himself or if he is BG as LE has ruled him out to my knowledge) about what we could possible learn about the Delphi investigation from the reaction to his case/crimes.

I had very similar thoughts to yours, and the hatchet has certainly stuck in my mind as a potential weapon. It would certainly be unusual and possibly a signature if a hatchet was used. The one thing that keeps me from leaning in that direction is that it was reported there was an open casket service for the girls and I tend to think that if such a violent method was used it would perhaps preclude that but I suppose not if the injuries were on the bodies. The car definitely could be a potential link, or maybe it was out of abundance of caution simply because of trail + proximity to Delphi + resemblance to the sketch. But personally I had a hard time letting go of DN as a suspect for many of the same reasons. Unfortunately we know so little of relative to what investigators have to eliminate potential suspects!

 

[Kittybunny]

brings me back to..

was BG mentioned by the girls as that 'weird guy" not from earlier on the trail but from earlier maybe at the store or the other day by the school or from ' just around"?

because they didn't know his name or who he was doesn't mean he wasn't checking them out and keeping an eye on them, it's a small town and as some one who blends right in he does not stand out ..but has he been there always? does he live there? does he breeze through?

or did he just go there on a whim..? I just don't think it was just a whim and quick decision because of the things we see in the photograph..lumps and items appear to be stuffed inside his pockets inside the actual jacket, possibly his pants, and possibly around his neck some white cables or cords..and again I still believe he may have a camera rig.

So it doesn't seem like oh I see these here girls and I just happen to have this gun...no he was suited up...so this makes me wonder if when he was seen earlier was he clanking along with all this stuff on him? or...did he have a car where he could retrieve these items once he
got his eye on his quarry?

what if all the stuff in his coat was personal stuff because he had nowhere to live? he had a gun, did he use it? i'm sure they can make out that gun by the outline and have a good idea what type of gun was in that pocket...still hard to track down a gun based on the outline. but they might have spent casings..if he used the gun. could have been a fake gun too.

so they think he then escaped through the woods..where to? he had to go somewhere..so if he did this on a whim then what did he do to get away? if he was homeless maybe he went to another encampment area near there..or some hidden place he was sleeping.. I personally loved our one poi that had been thrown out of his house and was an angry mess sleeping out in the park areas ( kind of temporarily homeless) but he didn't pan out. Also I don't think this is a homeless person because I feel like he was just too neatly out of the picture..

what they say about this crime scene and what they say about the crime is at odds.

how do we have a complex many faceted crime scene with several signatures and a great deal of evidence when they claim this was a crime of opportunity and happened on a whim?
a crime where the stars aligned and this random murder happened.

I don't believe it ...I think there was planning, and a car and a camera involved and I think he went straight home after, cleaned up and watched it unfold on tv.

mOO

I don't think that this being a crime of opportunity doesn't mean that there wasn't planning involved - IMO it means that the victims were not specifically selected in advance. Everything else however could've been planned down to the last detail. I continue to think of BG as a predator and hunter who has chosen his weapon, positioned himself for the best view of the field, and when prey walks in to his line of sight, he goes for it. I also think that he has been to that trail, staking it out, perhaps has had multiple unsuccessful hunts where he goes home, unsatisfied, until that day, when he felt that everything was right - for him. But so horribly wrong for Abby and Libby.

 

[Yemelyan]

Which I am trying to remember-- did we ever have an expert or FBI profile for BG ??
I know a lot of profilers say if it was first murder, BG could have had previous crimes just not murder.
some say murderers have killed before.
some say they have killed animals before killing a person.
I know it has been 4 yrs and I cant remember if a profile was done ... heck, I cant even remember what I did last night LOL

LE have never shared one. TL was asked in the Q&A if there was one and he said it was something already looked into. I read it as an affirmative that there was one but it would not be shared.

Official profiles typically aren't shared in their entirety with the public. Sometimes specific parts will be brought forward, as was done in Evansdale. IMO

 

[Wolverbear]

LE have never shared one. TL was asked in the Q&A if there was one and he said it was something already looked into. I read it as an affirmative that there was one but it would not be shared.

Official profiles typically aren't shared in their entirety with the public. Sometimes specific parts will be brought forward, as was done in Evansdale. IMO

I know it's not something that is going to really help the Delphi case (assuming it's a one off killer and not serial), but I would love to read the profile(s) that the GBI and FBI classes have developed. I can only assume that with their skills they have some very intriguing ideas. Next to justice for Abby and Libby, I hope this case is someday solved just so that we can find out what was causing capable agencies such trouble.

 

[MistyWaters]

LE have never shared one. TL was asked in the Q&A if there was one and he said it was something already looked into. I read it as an affirmative that there was one but it would not be shared.

Official profiles typically aren't shared in their entirety with the public. Sometimes specific parts will be brought forward, as was done in Evansdale. IMO

Just adding this, about FBI profiles, a fascinating field.

“In step 4 of the process, the FBI profiler produces a report for local investigators that predicts the possible personality, physical, and social characteristics of the unknown offender. The profile lists objects that might be in possession of the killer, such as *advertiser censored*, and may propose strategies for identifying, apprehending and even questioning the accused. An FBI profile can vary in length from a few paragraphs to a number of pages depending on how much information the FBI had to analyze at the input step...”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/wicked-deeds/201905/how-the-fbi-profiles-serial-offenders

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't think that this being a crime of opportunity doesn't mean that there wasn't planning involved - IMO it means that the victims were not specifically selected in advance. Everything else however could've been planned down to the last detail. I continue to think of BG as a predator and hunter who has chosen his weapon, positioned himself for the best view of the field, and when prey walks in to his line of sight, he goes for it. I also think that he has been to that trail, staking it out, perhaps has had multiple unsuccessful hunts where he goes home, unsatisfied, until that day, when he felt that everything was right - for him. But so horribly wrong for Abby and Libby.

I’d sure agree with what you wrote. According to the Crime Triangle Libby and Abby became the opportunity and two other factors were in place, the killers intent to murder and the two girls were suitable victims in his mind.

The last paragraph, sound familiar to anyone? Although not ISP, it’s Houston, TX police.

https://www.houstontx.gov/police/pdfs/brochures/english/Personal_Safety.pdf
“The Crime Triangle identifies three factors that create a criminal offense.
Desire of a criminal to commit a crime;
Target of the criminal’s desire;
and the Opportunity for the crime to be committed.

You can break up the Crime Triangle by not giving the criminal the Opportunity. Stay alert and use good judgment by knowing whom and what is around you at all times. You can avoid becoming an easy target. Remember! Awareness is the key to your safety....”

 

[ReadySet]

For those who still insist that the newer sketch of BG could not be right because the video stills show a much older man, the current case of the mass shooting at the grocery store in Boulder shows how pictures of someone can be deceptive in determining age. Many have been shocked that the Boulder killer, who appears much older in the initial picture, turned out to be only 21. Even LE described him as a "middle age male" when they first put out a description.

The picture at the top of the article is the first the public saw.

Boulder shooting suspect: Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa charged with 10 counts of first-degree murder

 

[MistyWaters]

For those who still insist that the newer sketch of BG could not be right because the video stills show a much older man, the current case of the mass shooting at the grocery store in Boulder shows how pictures of someone can be deceptive in determining age. Many have been shocked that the Boulder killer, who appears much older in the initial picture, turned out to be only 21. Even LE described him as a "middle age male" when they first put out a description.

The picture at the top of the article is the first the public saw.

Boulder shooting suspect: Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa charged with 10 counts of first-degree murder

I agree 100%, great example.

 

[Charlot123]

Masslive is a Massachusetts news source, it's MSM.

Taking samples from 11 people who were POI anyway, for various reasons, (as in the Gary Schara case) is not a DNA sweep/dragnet. It's just investigating known POIs. Sweeps take place when large numbers of people are asked to give DNA, such as all the residents of a particular town, or if you asked everyone (hundreds of people) employed at the Packers Corp to give DNA, for example, with NO other evidence or suspicion of involvement. It's a pressure tactic and it is coercive. How many people at Packers, for example, might refuse on the grounds that they were previous offenders (though uninvolved in the Delphi murders) or undocumented workers?

As I cited and quoted in my post above, the study looked at 7000 people who gave DNA in dragnets since 1995 and only 1 suspect was identified in all those investigations. One.

...and I bet that one was identified either early into the strategy, or else, was a total moron. Because probably by 2005, everyone literate knew about crime and DNA. (And of course, today, what with GSK, everyone heard about the Parabon).

And you are probably right, in the group that refused DNA 10 out of 11 had other reasons (prior offenses, mb?).

But specifically because everyone is aware about DNA, what do you think the murderer will never agree to, nowadays, if asked?

...Over those 25 years, Agawam police had 300 suspects altogether. I don’t know how many were asked for DNA. But in 2017, after Parabon's phenotypic analysis, the police went back to those 11 who had refused. Schara was in that group.

Remember “we have probably interviewed him” (Agawam police must have thought so, too. Now, what is the next logical step?) “Who has refused when asked for DNA?”

The article below is very detailed.

It shows why Agawam police suspected he was a local.

It shows why he flew under the radar. Very interesting: 1) was adopted; 2) was exceptionally ordinary; 3) had a job (customer service); 4) was nice and polite to customers; 5) had a family, a young child, had family issues during the murder, but by all accounts, might have looked the victim in the divorce; 6) moved rather soon after the murders; 7) moved back later to live with the parents. Nothing unusual.

His face...only the childhood photo looks odd, tbh.

Who is Gary Schara? Records detail alleged Lisa Ziegert killer's past

As to his thoughts. There is another article, easily accessible, that I am not linking here. Suffice it to say, these scary, sadistic dreams develop early in life. Having read that article, I am now with the group who suspected sexual motives in Delphi case.

And pay attention - no internet yet. Schara stalked Lisa. She felt it. It was easy to target before Internet, before Snapchat... So Delphi girls could be targeted. No need for a camera or GPS.

 

[Charlot123]

Deleted

 

[Boxer]

For those who still insist that the newer sketch of BG could not be right because the video stills show a much older man, the current case of the mass shooting at the grocery store in Boulder shows how pictures of someone can be deceptive in determining age. Many have been shocked that the Boulder killer, who appears much older in the initial picture, turned out to be only 21. Even LE described him as a "middle age male" when they first put out a description.

The picture at the top of the article is the first the public saw.

Boulder shooting suspect: Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa charged with 10 counts of first-degree murder

True. Boulder killer was even balding.