George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 2

[kittythehare]

Here's the portion of Dr Baker's testimony where Eric Nelson questioned him about meetings etc. prior to trial (39:30)

One of the documents that we discussed:

https://static.fox9.com/www.fox9.com/content/uploads/2020/08/Exhibit-4.pdf

There were other anomalies though, premature and altered reports from his offices at various stages.

I do think it is likely their processes will warrant an external investigation, not sure if this case will be affected or not yet tho'

 

[kittythehare]

The gastric contents were retained.

ADDITIONAL PROCEDURES:
Postmortem specimens collected and retained: vitreous fluid, femoral blood, urine, liver, and gastric contents.

Autopsy Report for George Floyd

were they sent for laboratory analysis tho'?
If not, why not?

 

[Simply Southern]

I see.
Nobody asked him why he hadn't sent the stomach contents for analysis, did they?
Why not?
Or did they and I missed it?

From the autopsy... 450ml is 15.22 ounces that’s significant in my judgment.

GASTROINTESTINAL TRACT: The esophagus is intact and lined by smooth, gray-white mucosa. The stomach contains approximately 450 mL of dark brown fluid with innumerable soft fragments of gray-white food particulate matter resembling bread. The gastric wall is intact. The duodenum, loops of small bowel, and colon are unremarkable. The appendix is present.

 

[MsBetsy]

Oh maybe not. I read it wrong. Two independent specialists were hired by George's family to conduct one autopsy. Not two autopsies ... two specialists.


Floyd’s family commissioned two independent examiners to conduct a separate autopsy, according to the family’s attorneys. Their findings concluded that Floyd died from asphyxiation from sustained pressure.

Drugs, heart disease contributed to, but didn't cause, George Floyd's death, medical examiner testifies

Right. Both ME's agreed the COD was mechanical asphyxiation due to neck and back compression, along with 'most' of the experts who have testified so far.

 

[MsBetsy]

From the autopsy... 450ml is 15.22 ounces that’s significant in my judgment.

GASTROINTESTINAL TRACT: The esophagus is intact and lined by smooth, gray-white mucosa. The stomach contains approximately 450 mL of dark brown fluid with innumerable soft fragments of gray-white food particulate matter resembling bread. The gastric wall is intact. The duodenum, loops of small bowel, and colon are unremarkable. The appendix is present.

Yet he testified that he did not send it to be tested by the lab. Or at least I thought that's what was just posted upthread.

 

[kittythehare]

From the autopsy... 450ml is 15.22 ounces that’s significant in my judgment.

GASTROINTESTINAL TRACT: The esophagus is intact and lined by smooth, gray-white mucosa. The stomach contains approximately 450 mL of dark brown fluid with innumerable soft fragments of gray-white food particulate matter resembling bread. The gastric wall is intact. The duodenum, loops of small bowel, and colon are unremarkable. The appendix is present.

The dark brown could be indicative of an old bleed. Or coffee.
But it wasn't sent to lab for analysis, he stated.
This is what we cannot understand.

 

[Simply Southern]

Ooops

 

[CrimeAway]

were they sent for laboratory analysis tho'?
If not, why not?

If not, it would seem odd, IMO. I would think that in such any case, but especially such a high profile one, it would be best to have all specimens thoroughly tested, and back up specimens retained??

If you do not look for something, you cannot assert later that it is not there. (IMO).
These types of oversight in other cases have led to "unsafe" prosecutions, or even aquittal of guilty defendants. MOO

 

[kittythehare]

Ooops

Bigly!
Cannot believe it.
I just cannot.

 

[kittythehare]

Right. Both ME's agreed the COD was mechanical asphyxiation due to neck and back compression, along with 'most' of the experts who have testified so far.

and so did the other doctor, semi retired that works with Dr Baker.

 

[SouthAussie]

The dark brown could be indicative of an old bleed. Or coffee.
But it wasn't sent to lab for analysis, he stated.
This is what we cannot understand.

I am not sure that it matters. Whatever was in George's stomach had not yet affected his system. It is what was in his blood that would have been affecting his system, would have been circulating around his body.

And his blood was lab tested.

Forensic toxicologist Daniel Isenschmid, whose laboratory tested Mr Floyd's blood and urine samples following his death, said there was evidence that some of the fentanyl had metabolised, meaning that an overdose was less likely.
George Floyd died from lack of oxygen, not fentanyl, says expert

I think that as non-professionals (of the forensic kind) we are perhaps worrying about lab testing of stomach contents too much. The professionals know what they are doing. Things that are sitting in the stomach are not yet digested.

 

[Simply Southern]

I would be interested in seeing the “other” autopsy report. The one GFs private attorney arranged.
Has anyone seen the report? Wondering if it was released to the public?

 

[kittythehare]

@CrimeAway
see this, page 7 from your link.
At that stage he had performed the autopsy but he had not received the toxicological results.
Note what he states about the RCA- he says it's 75% occluded.
Did he not say yesterday it was 90% occluded?
https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12646/ExhibitMtD08282020.pdf

 

[kittythehare]

I am not sure that it matters. Whatever was in George's stomach had not yet affected his system. It is what was in his blood that would have been affecting his system, would have been circulating around his body.

And his blood was lab tested.

Forensic toxicologist Daniel Isenschmid, whose laboratory tested Mr Floyd's blood and urine samples following his death, said there was evidence that some of the fentanyl had metabolised, meaning that an overdose was less likely.
George Floyd died from lack of oxygen, not fentanyl, says expert

I think that as non-professionals we are perhaps worrying about lab testing of stomach contents too much. The professionals know what they are doing. Things that are sitting in the stomach are not yet digested.

Well that's not quite accurate because stomach is first port of call. Some matter is absorbed via mouth and others at various parts of stomach.
This is important because it can signify what and when somebody last ate.

If , for example he had a gastric ulcer that had bled as a result of the trauma he had endured, mix red with brown coffee will get brown.
Also brown will occlude the presence of a white pill which he stated definitively was not present.

I'm talking general autopsy procedures, not specifically drug quantity or quality.
Thegastric contents could have contained any kind of poison not yet mentioned, the patient/victim is entitled to a thorough and full autopsy.
Not just drugs or alcohol.

 

[SouthAussie]

Well that's not quite accurate because stomach is first port of call. Some matter is absorbed via mouth and others at various parts of stomach.
This is important because it can signify what and when somebody last ate.

If , for example he had a gastric ulcer that had bled as a result of the trauma he had endured, mix red with brown coffee will get brown.
Also brown will occlude the presence of a white pill which he stated definitively was not present.

I'm talking general autopsy procedures, not specifically drug quantity or quality.
Thegastric contents could have contained any kind of poison not yet mentioned, the patient/victim is entitled to a thorough and full autopsy.
Not just drugs or alcohol.

Yes, and it is the blood and urine that carry these ingested substances through the body. To and from the affected areas. And blood and urine were both lab tested.

 

[kittythehare]

Yes, and it is the blood and urine that carry these substances through the body. To the affected areas. And blood and urine were both lab tested.

Yeah, but suppose DC had poured petrol down his throat and the patient died before he had a chance to metabolise them, they would be present in pure form in his stomach contents. That did not happen.
An autopsy is not just to detect the presence of specific drugs in the system, it should also document all stomach contents, pre-metabolites.
And this works both ways.
He stated there were no pills in GF stomach.
How could he have known without analysis?

 

[CrimeAway]

Well that's not quite accurate because stomach is first port of call. Some matter is absorbed via mouth and others at various parts of stomach.
This is important because it can signify what and when somebody last ate.

If , for example he had a gastric ulcer that had bled as a result of the trauma he had endured, mix red with brown coffee will get brown.
Also brown will occlude the presence of a white pill which he stated definitively was not present.

I'm talking general autopsy procedures, not specifically drug quantity or quality.
Thegastric contents could have contained any kind of poison not yet mentioned, the patient/victim is entitled to a thorough and full autopsy.
Not just drugs or alcohol.

Yes, and if perhaps I was to hide some pills in my mouth because I didn't want to get in trouble with law enforcement, and then I got all stressed out and a struggle ensued, I might (deliberately, or inadvertently), crush or chew some of those pills. Some of the active ingredient might then, get absorbed through my oral mucosa, even if I spat some out, and/or swallowed some. Crushed up pills, will generally absorb faster, (volume ratio) IMO.
For example, if a dog were to chew some butorphanol pills without authorization (!), the vet would want to know how many pills of what strength were possibly ingested, examine the oral cavity, and vomitus for exidence of said pills. This would help determine the possible level of intoxicant absorbed, which could help determine the amount of naloxone to administer, and other further care.

 

[MsBetsy]

I am not sure that it matters. Whatever was in George's stomach had not yet affected his system. It is what was in his blood that would have been affecting his system, would have been circulating around his body.

And his blood was lab tested.

Forensic toxicologist Daniel Isenschmid, whose laboratory tested Mr Floyd's blood and urine samples following his death, said there was evidence that some of the fentanyl had metabolised, meaning that an overdose was less likely.
George Floyd died from lack of oxygen, not fentanyl, says expert

I think that as non-professionals (of the forensic kind) we are perhaps worrying about lab testing of stomach contents too much. The professionals know what they are doing. Things that are sitting in the stomach are not yet digested.

I think the reason people want to know if there were any pill fragments or chemicals in his stomach is to either prove or disprove that he took enough fentanyl during the arrest to overdose. The defense is claiming that he "ate" a bunch of pills so if this were true they would likely be undigested. Imo

 

[kittythehare]

I think the reason people want to know if there were any pill fragments or chemicals in his stomach is to either prove or disprove that he took enough fentanyl during the arrest to overdose. The defense is claiming that he "ate" a bunch of pills so if this were true they would likely be undigested. Imo

Because death occurred so very quickly following restraints as per Dr Tobin's testimony.

 

[mickey2942]

To me, it is pretty simple.

Would GF have died on that sidewalk that day, that moment if DC had not been kneeling on him?

Nope.

The defense has a very, steep hill to climb if I can't see a way out for DC. And I am very pro LEO.