Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[margarita25]

I’ve always envisioned him, for some reason, pulling his vehicle up along the trees parallel to the highway somewhere, poised for a quick and undetected exit. Basically cutting through the woods there and back, with his vehicle hidden, perhaps within foliage.

It’s been a long time since I’ve looked at the maps...

Cheers to all for keeping the girls’ threads alive.

 

[Jethro4WS]

Parking at the cemetery is not high on my list. BUT if you park at the back of the cemetery the vehicle can't be seen from the road by passing vehicles. Given the light traffic the killer could have left when no vehicles were driving by and no one would have known.

Sheriff Leazenby stated in the latest DTH program that they really don't know how the killer exited the CS and general area so just about any theory is open for discussion with regard to the killer's departure.

That brings me to the vehicle at the now demolished CPS building. If LE doesn't know where this killer parked and how he left the area that unknown vehicle may simply be a trail user not accounted for that day and not the killer. That is, another witness, although 4 years later how much would they really remember. Since the vehicle was brought up in April 2019 and almost no mention since, is it possible the driver didn't see or read about the April PC? Or they know but for whatever reason they don't want LE to know they there? Driving when they have a suspended license, for example. (Statute of limitations might have run out on such an offense but coming forward now would be suspicious.)

I can't imagine someone wanting to come forward, especially if they are relatively local to the area. They saw what happened to RL, not only legally, but also what social media did. It would be great if whoever was connected to that car did come forward because as long as that remains unknown the defense for anyone ultimately arrested has a path to put forward a case based on someone else being responsible that parked near the CPS building. This is much the same situation as in the Missy Bevers case where there is an Altima that was driving around the gun store suspiciously a little less than two hours before events started inside the church where she was murdered.

 

[TL4S]

New improvements for the trail and bridge.

Delphi to work on Monon High Bridge Trail | Carroll County Comet

The project includes construction of an approximately 5,115 ft. x 8 ft. multi-use asphalt trail along the centerline of the former Monon Railroad corridor between the access to Miller Park at Old Camden Rd. (the former Van- Sickle property), on the west and the existing Monon High Bridge over the Deer Creek, on the east.
.....................

Bids may include design and build construction of structural improvements to the southwesterly abutment of the Monon High Bridge.
.....................

Werling noted Indiana Landmarks, which owns the actual Monon High Bridge, will be planking the bridge and adding railing along the sides simultaneously with the City’s work.

 

[Yemelyan]

Since the vehicle was brought up in April 2019 and almost no mention since, is it possible the driver didn't see or read about the April PC? Or they know but for whatever reason they don't want LE to know they there? Driving when they have a suspended license, for example. (Statute of limitations might have run out on such an offense but coming forward now would be suspicious.)

Snipped by me.

Seems to me that if the person parked there was a witness, then:

It is equally possible that the person parked there DID come forward after the April press conference but LE has not thought it necessary to inform the public because 1. They were investigated and found to be uninvolved OR 2. They were investigated and found to have important information of an evidentiary nature that LE doesn't feel the need to share at this time.

 

[Angels Advocate]

I am just jumping in here with two thoughts - I have not read much on this case here at Websleuths. Here are my two questions.

1) Do you feel this Bridge guy was recognized by the girls. Do you feel they knew him at all even if only slightly - perhaps had met him before ? If so what does that open up for discussion. My thought is that they behaved as if they knew him. Why ? Because they did not have to go anywhere with him. I know this sounds simplistic and perhaps they just did so out of fear. But there is that warning to never ever go anywhere with a stranger - pitch a fit - scream for help - make a huge scene - do absolutely anything but comply. Based on the released audio these two girls presumably went and did what he told them to. As a corollary to this - if they knew him at all - how did they know him ?

2) Why do you feel LE has released such a limited amount of information- especially now that four years have passed since the murders occurred.

 

[Angels Advocate]

I am just jumping in here with two thoughts - I have not read much on this case here at Websleuths. Here are my two questions.

1) Do you feel this Bridge guy was recognized by the girls. Do you feel they knew him at all even if only slightly - perhaps had met him before ? If so what does that open up for discussion. My thought is that they behaved as if they knew him. Why ? Because they did not have to go anywhere with him. I know this sounds simplistic and perhaps they just did so out of fear. But there is that warning to never ever go anywhere with a stranger - pitch a fit - scream for help - make a huge scene - do absolutely anything but comply. Based on the released audio these two girls presumably went and did what he told them to. As a corollary to this - if they knew him at all - how did they know him ?

2) Why do you feel LE has released such a limited amount of information- especially now that four years have passed since the murders occurred.

One further thing - to me Bridge Guy behaved as if he knew he would find them there at the exact time he did.

 

[photographer4]

It is east, or upstream from there. The east side crime tape is just south of where the creek had rounded the bend from a SSW direction to a NNW direction and the west side starts about 150-200 feet down stream of that. In that video I posted that shows the crime scene area from the south side panning from east to west at the very beginning up and to the right you can see the area where another small creek comes in. I have attached a LIDAR/Topo map with the approximate taped off area in a red rectangle and you can see on it where the other creek comes in from the south upstream of the crime scene.

Try not to laugh too hard... I tried an overlay with your map and google earth from april 2017.... does this look about right? I couldn't get it sized to fit directly over the creek on but I tried to line it up with the second creek to the lower right of the CS that your red rectangle shows....

EDITED: replaced the uploaded pic with one that was slightly better overlaid.

 

[Boxer]

One of the things I've always wondered about is who knew that house was unoccupied, and what that could mean.

MOO unfortunately I think observing the house for a short time might have revealed the owner was almost certainly away. Things covered and buttoned up, cars gone or covered etc.

 

[photographer4]

If the person is still a minor then they would’ve been 13 or younger on the day of the murder. Anyone older would be 18 by now and able to decide for themselves if they want to talk. Imo, that’s not likely.

What if the person, may have been a minor at the time, and / or has special needs. Would someone with guardianship possibly be declining to allow police to talk with them?

 

[TL4S]

I am just jumping in here with two thoughts - I have not read much on this case here at Websleuths. Here are my two questions.

1) Do you feel this Bridge guy was recognized by the girls. Do you feel they knew him at all even if only slightly - perhaps had met him before ? If so what does that open up for discussion. My thought is that they behaved as if they knew him. Why ? Because they did not have to go anywhere with him. I know this sounds simplistic and perhaps they just did so out of fear. But there is that warning to never ever go anywhere with a stranger - pitch a fit - scream for help - make a huge scene - do absolutely anything but comply. Based on the released audio these two girls presumably went and did what he told them to. As a corollary to this - if they knew him at all - how did they know him ?

2) Why do you feel LE has released such a limited amount of information- especially now that four years have passed since the murders occurred.

I believe they did not know or recognize him. One of the family members mentioned the girls (on video or audio) talking about a guy behind them, and the trail ending with nowhere to go. I know it was mentioned in a GH video, but not sure original source.

Here's what TL had to say about the killer gaining control:


Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet
Q. Do you know how the murderer was able to gain control of both girls at once?

A. It is believed by manipulation and intimidation factors.

 

[Yemelyan]

I am just jumping in here with two thoughts - I have not read much on this case here at Websleuths. Here are my two questions.

1) Do you feel this Bridge guy was recognized by the girls. Do you feel they knew him at all even if only slightly - perhaps had met him before ? If so what does that open up for discussion. My thought is that they behaved as if they knew him. Why ? Because they did not have to go anywhere with him. I know this sounds simplistic and perhaps they just did so out of fear. But there is that warning to never ever go anywhere with a stranger - pitch a fit - scream for help - make a huge scene - do absolutely anything but comply. Based on the released audio these two girls presumably went and did what he told them to. As a corollary to this - if they knew him at all - how did they know him ?

2) Why do you feel LE has released such a limited amount of information- especially now that four years have passed since the murders occurred.

I'll jump in with my impressions for discussion....

1. I don't feel that the victims recognized him, or if they did I don't think that the fact they went with him should be used as evidence of that. Yes, everyone is taught to scream, run, or make a scene before going with a stranger but unless one is in that exact situation, I don't think we can - or should - impose any framework of what victims "should" have done when faced with it. These were very young girls. Even adults have failed to respond to threats in the advised way. Secondly, the reason that LE believes they complied with him is that he used manipulation and intimidation on them (see TL's Carroll County Comet Q&A). So that's the answer, IMO, on why they acted like they did.

2. This is going to sound simplistic but I believe the reason that LE has released such a limited amount of information in this case is just because they do not feel that anything they've held back would help the public know who the man on the bridge is. I do not know whether they are correct in this evaluation of the evidence or not but the reason they haven't released more at this time is that they don't think it would be helpful and it could potentially be harmful to their eventual case. JMO

 

[Peppery]

What if the person, may have been a minor at the time, and / or has special needs. Would someone with guardianship possibly be declining to allow police to talk with them?

Once a person turns 18 they can decide for themselves to discuss events when they were a minor. I don’t know for sure about a person with special needs requiring a guardian but if they aren’t legally responsible for caring for themselves now, I doubt they would’ve been on the trails alone or unsupervised 4 years ago. Imo. Unless there was a traumatic event that rendered them dependent since that time. That seems like a small likelihood to me though.

 

[Boxer]

I am just jumping in here with two thoughts - I have not read much on this case here at Websleuths. Here are my two questions.

1) Do you feel this Bridge guy was recognized by the girls. Do you feel they knew him at all even if only slightly - perhaps had met him before ? If so what does that open up for discussion. My thought is that they behaved as if they knew him. Why ? Because they did not have to go anywhere with him. I know this sounds simplistic and perhaps they just did so out of fear. But there is that warning to never ever go anywhere with a stranger - pitch a fit - scream for help - make a huge scene - do absolutely anything but comply. Based on the released audio these two girls presumably went and did what he told them to. As a corollary to this - if they knew him at all - how did they know him ?

2) Why do you feel LE has released such a limited amount of information- especially now that four years have passed since the murders occurred.

MOO he got close to and had a grip Abby while still on the bridge or had her at point blank gunpoint.
Libby could have run at that time but did not until it was tooate she also was at gunpoint.
He probably lied to gain some compliance saying "I only want 'xyz' and I won't kill you unless you scream or run."

 

[Yemelyan]

On the topic of what the families have been told and why, I would refer to this conversation between MP and DC in episode 9 of Down the Hill. When MP talks about doing what DC has asked him to do, I think he is referring, at least in part, to staying patient about not knowing certain facts about the crime at this point in time:


MP: We’ve met and we’ve talked a lot, and corresponded back and forth, and we’ve been from one side of the country to the other [Carter interjects “literally”] and we’ve actually become friends. And that’s a good friendship, I do like that and I cherish it. But you’re right. You owe me. You owe me something. [Carter: “Yep.”] But I’m going to work as hard as I can to help you deliver on that, and you know that, and I’ve maintained that position, and I won’t change that position, because we are working to the same goal. I’m not going to stop. Anything that Doug has asked of me, I’ve delivered, or done my best to deliver, and I’ve asked something of him, and he’s working as hard as he can, and his team and supporting it, to make that delivery and one day we will. It’s just a matter of time….Trust me, I want this thing solved yesterday, as bad as anybody, probably more so. But I realize that it takes time. Because there’s really two deliverables here. One is, Doug and his team building up, making a case to make an arrest. Then it goes over the prosecutor, who has to prosecute the case. And we can’t lose sight of that because we’ve got to get it right...

DC: Once the arrest is made, all 50,000 tips are going to be dissected. Every single one of those tips will be dissected, and we’re going to find out if there's any kind of activity. Because if we jeopardize this, we can’t pull it back. It’s easy for the media, or citizens, to say “I think it’s this” and if they’re wrong, it's okay. But if we jeopardize this, we own it.

MP: And I’ll hold people accountable. And that’s why we’re going to get it right. It’s a tough row to hoe, but I entrust in what LE’s doing. So when they call me. Doug will call me - and say, “Mike, we got it.”

 

[Jethro4WS]

Try not to laugh too hard... I tried an overlay with your map and google earth from april 2017.... does this look about right? I couldn't get it sized to fit directly over the creek on but I tried to line it up with the second creek to the lower right of the CS that your red rectangle shows....

EDITED: replaced the uploaded pic with one that was slightly better overlaid.

That looks placed pretty good - the rectangle I drew is approximate after all. Plus, the creek banks change due to erosion and the water depth varies quite a bit (since Deer Creek is a drainage fed waterway) so some places in shallow areas can be underwater or exposed on the day the satellite or aerial photo or LIDAR was taken. So, fitting things together isn't easy.

 

[photographer4]

On the topic of what the families have been told and why, I would refer to this conversation between MP and DC in episode 9 of Down the Hill. When MP talks about doing what DC has asked him to do, I think he is referring, at least in part, to staying patient about not knowing certain facts about the crime at this point in time:


MP: We’ve met and we’ve talked a lot, and corresponded back and forth, and we’ve been from one side of the country to the other [Carter interjects “literally”] and we’ve actually become friends. And that’s a good friendship, I do like that and I cherish it. But you’re right. You owe me. You owe me something. [Carter: “Yep.”] But I’m going to work as hard as I can to help you deliver on that, and you know that, and I’ve maintained that position, and I won’t change that position, because we are working to the same goal. I’m not going to stop. Anything that Doug has asked of me, I’ve delivered, or done my best to deliver, and I’ve asked something of him, and he’s working as hard as he can, and his team and supporting it, to make that delivery and one day we will. It’s just a matter of time….Trust me, I want this thing solved yesterday, as bad as anybody, probably more so. But I realize that it takes time. Because there’s really two deliverables here. One is, Doug and his team building up, making a case to make an arrest. Then it goes over the prosecutor, who has to prosecute the case. And we can’t lose sight of that because we’ve got to get it right...

DC: Once the arrest is made, all 50,000 tips are going to be dissected. Every single one of those tips will be dissected, and we’re going to find out if there's any kind of activity. Because if we jeopardize this, we can’t pull it back. It’s easy for the media, or citizens, to say “I think it’s this” and if they’re wrong, it's okay. But if we jeopardize this, we own it.

MP: And I’ll hold people accountable. And that’s why we’re going to get it right. It’s a tough row to hoe, but I entrust in what LE’s doing. So when they call me. Doug will call me - and say, “Mike, we got it.”

I hadn't seen / heard / read this before, so thanks for sharing it! I wonder what it means that they've literally been across the country? I hope one day DC does call MP and say, "Mike, we got it".

 

[Tealgrove]

One further thing - to me Bridge Guy behaved as if he knew he would find them there at the exact time he did.

I think he followed them.

I am a firm believer that BG was walking the trails looking to rape/murder/kidnap, etc., etc., He was prepared.

The girls were there. He saw them, watched them, followed them and maybe even tried to talk to them before the fateful final "down the hill".

I do not believe the girls recognized him or knew him. I do not believe he knew them.

He was there and so were they.

Honestly, I believe it is that simple. Sometimes, the simpler the event, the harder to put together. Stranger murder is the hardest. There is no relationship and no ties. Nothing that binds the victim(s) to the suspect. Nothing. It's random.

MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

I hadn't seen / heard / read this before, so thanks for sharing it! I wonder what it means that they've literally been across the country? I hope one day DC does call MP and say, "Mike, we got it".

You're welcome. They traveled all across the country together appearing on different television programs such as Dr. Phil, etc.

 

[JnRyan]

I can't imagine someone wanting to come forward, especially if they are relatively local to the area. They saw what happened to RL, not only legally, but also what social media did. It would be great if whoever was connected to that car did come forward because as long as that remains unknown the defense for anyone ultimately arrested has a path to put forward a case based on someone else being responsible that parked near the CPS building. This is much the same situation as in the Missy Bevers case where there is an Altima that was driving around the gun store suspiciously a little less than two hours before events started inside the church where she was murdered.

Yes, the arrest of RL certainly comes to mind. At the time of that arrest I believe it was ISP Sgt Kim Riley that stated any illegal act that comes to the attention of LE as a result of the investigation would be something that LE would have to take action on.

 

[photographer4]

Food for thought.... I used a ruler in Google Earth to make these red lines. They are each between 48 and 55ft from the edge of the creek.