George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

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One poster said she couldn't get there with the depraved mind because DC could have thought he was just doing what he was trained to do. Then someone asked if that person couldn't get there despite all the training in the use of force and undo force. The person replied, asking how we knew DC's training was up-to-date in that.

At that point, I replied, citing that there was testimony that he was trained in it.

Then someone else came in talking about excited delirum training, which is not to do with what we were talking about. We were talking about his use of force training.

So that's how it came about.


Gotcha, I was using it as a segue way to focus on the charges that will be given to the jury for a discussion tangent.

In the end, it will be the specific jury charge instructions that folks will have to knit their way through to determine and focus on MOO.
 
Depraved heart-
As a CPR instructor, we train to check for breathing and responsiveness. If a person is not breathing and not responsive, we teach to start CPR immediately without even checking for a pulse.

If I was on the jury, I would lay prone and have someone simply put a hand on my back to feel for breathing . Simple demonstration to feel the lungs expand during inhalation. Imagine how much more respiratory effort would be required if you had even one knee on your back. You would inevitably feel the respiratory effort against the force of one’s knee.

DC declined to roll him into the recovery position multiple times as his condition deteriorated, even when suggested by his fellow officer. He ignored the concern from bystanders (one of which was a trained medical responder) and an officer.

IMO, DC knew he was unresponsive and could feel he was not breathing. He was aware his fellow officer was unable to find a pulse. He still continued his use of deadly force after GF was limp, unresponsive, not breathing and had no pulse.

Depraved heart IMO.
 
I understood that to be your point already, but you were asking if we thought they'd proved that he'd been training in new techniques. That's what I was giving my thoughts on. A depraved mind is not the same as doing one's job wrong, imo, and I don't think he was doing his job the way he thought he was trained if he was present a training sessions that instructed the opposite. They told us what they trained, and if he chose to do something different, that could be a depraved mind.
I think he thought he would get away with not doing as he was trained. And I do think he acted with reckless disregard and indifference as to whether anyone was harmed or not. That much I believe the prosecution has proven and I don't see how the defense can get around that.

I think the only option they have left is to have Chauvin testify. Maybe he himself can explain why he did the things he did. But after seeing what the prosecution did today it could turn out to be even more damaging.

Imo
 
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Are you sure that Chauvin received all training available to police officers?


Derek Chauvin trial: Expert says cop was justified in pinning down George Floyd

The post from @RANCH that I have quoted above, exemplifies (IMO) just how important it is to examine all of the evidence, and "Totality of the Circumstances," before we jump to judgement.

I have never been a fan of the term, "fake news," because I think that it has become an almost instinctive retort to anything that one may disagree with.
However, I am becoming more and more concerned that both mass media, and social media, are taking a snapshot, or shallow take, on an issue, then spinning it, until it suits a particular (or popular) narrative.
Unfortunately, IMO, many people then accept that as the WHOLE truth, and do not consider any alternative points of view.

I think a rush to judgement on complex issues is dangerous for a stable society.

This is why, despite my visceral and emotional reaction to DC's actions last May, I support his right to a fair trial.

All MOO
 
Depraved heart-
As a CPR instructor, we train to check for breathing and responsiveness. If a person is not breathing and not responsive, we teach to start CPR immediately without even checking for a pulse.

If I was on the jury, I would lay prone and have someone simply put a hand on my back to feel for breathing . Simple demonstration to feel the lungs expand during inhalation. Imagine how much more respiratory effort would be required if you had even one knee on your back. You would inevitably feel the respiratory effort against the force of one’s knee.

DC declined to roll him into the recovery position multiple times as his condition deteriorated, even when suggested by his fellow officer. He ignored the concern from bystanders (one of which was a trained medical responder) and an officer.

IMO, DC knew he was unresponsive and could feel he was not breathing. He was aware his fellow officer was unable to find a pulse. He still continued his use of deadly force after GF was limp, unresponsive, not breathing and had no pulse.

Depraved heart IMO.

Are they allowed to do that? Isn't that creating evidence?
 
Does anyone else think that the prosecution held back the 2 events which were decided to be allowed in a motions hearing for later sur-rebuttal to make it more effective? (Assuming Minnesota has such)

One of the events was praise for turning someone into recovery position. He KNEW
 
Hi All,

I watched parts, if not most, of the jury selection when it happened. Does anyone know if there is a video online that shows the questioning and answering that all seated jurors gave? I'm wanting to go back and listen to each of their "interviews" (I'm not familiar with any of this so I'm not sure what it's called) but was hoping I don't have to watch the entire jury selection and scan for ones that were seated. If nobody is aware of a video of what I'm trying to describe, does anyone know what juror "numbers" were selected? I'd be able fast forward to the "swearing in" process and skip ones that aren't relevant. I'll most likely go through and find each of them if no such video exists and I'll timestamp the seated jurors in case anyone else is interested in hearing that again.
 
Are they allowed to do that? Isn't that creating evidence?

The judge specifically said to the jury that they could mimic.. but they didn't have to. MOO it was said earlier this week when many jurors were putting their hands to their necks. So I would assume they could also discuss/do in deliberations?
 
Gotcha, I was using it as a segue way to focus on the charges that will be given to the jury for a discussion tangent.

In the end, it will be the specific jury charge instructions that folks will have to knit their way through to determine and focus on MOO.

I completely agree. I thought the person actually asked good questions about DC in asking if he had had the most up-to-date training in use of force. I also thought I was being helpful by answering that question. They had yearly update training on use of force.

I read that clarification on the jury instruction about "depraved mind" and I think it will be helpful. I was having a slight problem with it myself until I read the definition of it.
 
I don't think they did anything wrong. I just feel the momentum was stymied and they should have presented the witnesses in a more compelling order. The comments I've seen from observers indicate the jury has been snoozing or nodding off. That enough indicates they're presentation could have been better.

Thanks for answering! I also thought yesterday didn't feel that great for the State, and I they should have reconsidered the order of their witnesses. Jurors were snoozing and nodding off??? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Many times it seems the prosecution ends up presenting excessive witness commentary and boring testimony in high profile cases like this. Not sure why but there are many cases you can point to where the majority of public opinion is guilty and the prosecution lost. Many seem to talk themselves out of guilty verdicts. Present the darn facts and get out!

I totally agree with you about this. Is it because they know so many people are watching? It's like the harder they try the more I don't believe it. I wonder what that is all about?

I followed the Casey Anthony trial. I knew in my heart she did it, but was not shocked they didn't convict after watching the trial.

Of course.. all JMO
 
Hi All,

I watched parts, if not most, of the jury selection when it happened. Does anyone know if there is a video online that shows the questioning and answering that all seated jurors gave? I'm wanting to go back and listen to each of their "interviews" (I'm not familiar with any of this so I'm not sure what it's called) but was hoping I don't have to watch the entire jury selection and scan for ones that were seated. If nobody is aware of a video of what I'm trying to describe, does anyone know what juror "numbers" were selected? I'd be able fast forward to the "swearing in" process and skip ones that aren't relevant. I'll most likely go through and find each of them if no such video exists and I'll timestamp the seated jurors in case anyone else is interested in hearing that again.


BRB.... I'll go grab a link.. it's in the media thread the numbers...

ETA: Here you go @BoyThatsWeird as to the list with the original numbers for you.

No. 2: White man, 20s
He described himself as a chemist and environmental studies scientist who said he typically views life through an analytical lens.

Defense attorney Eric Nelson asked him to expand on some of the answers he gave on his written questionnaire, particularly a question concerning Black Lives Matter.

“I support the message that every life should matter equally,” the juror said. “I don’t believe that the organization Black Lives Matter necessarily stands for that.”

The juror was also asked to expand on answers he gave about disparities in policing and about the criminal justice system. He said he doesn’t necessarily think Minneapolis police are more likely to use force against Black people than they would against others.

However, he said he believes the criminal justice system is biased against racial and ethnic minorities. He said there was a lot of evidence to support that opinion.

No. 9: Multi/mixed race woman, 20s
She describes herself as easygoing, and a mediator among her friends.

In her questionnaire, she said she had somewhat negative impressions of Chauvin, but that she could keep an open mind and be fair. She also said she believes the Black Lives Matter movement, along with Blue Lives Matter, has turned into a disingenuous marketing scheme for corporations.

She has an uncle who’s a police officer in central Minnesota, but said that wouldn't affect her opinion.

When the judge told her she was chosen, she said, "Awesome."

No. 19: White man, 30s
He said he’s in client services and has had to resolve conflicts before.

In his questionnaire, he indicated his view of Chauvin was “somewhat negative” because he didn’t resuscitate Floyd, and that he supports Black Lives Matter in a general context. He also said he has some unfavorable views of Blue Lives Matter.

He said he has a “friend of a friend” who is a Minneapolis K-9 officer but that he hasn’t spoken to him about the case or seen him since the pandemic.

He said he’s seen the bystander video about two or three times, not in full, as part of news articles.

No. 27: Black man, 30s
He told the court he came to the United States 14 years ago, speaks multiple languages, works in information technology and is married.

Nelson asked the juror about an answer he provided on the written questionnaire about the death of Floyd. “And you said, ‘It could have been me or anyone else.' Can you explain that a little?” asked Nelson.

“It could have been anybody. It could have been you,” replied the juror. “I also used to live not far from that area (38th Street and Chicago Avenue in south Minneapolis) when I first met my wife. So that is why I said it could have been me. It could have been anybody.”

Asked if he had any particular opinions about the Minneapolis Police Department or law enforcement in general, the man said he did not. The juror also said he felt somewhat supportive of both Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter.

“And you wrote that you believe ‘our cops need to be safe and feel and be safe to protect our community,’” Nelson read from the juror’s questionnaire. “Correct,” said the juror.

No. 44: White woman, 50s
The court held part of her questioning without audio while they discussed a sensitive matter with the juror. She later said in her work for a nonprofit advocacy group, she’s had contact with Attorney General Keith Ellison.

When asked if she felt that would jeopardize her ability to be an impartial juror, she said no.

Nelson asked the juror about her answers on the jury questionnaire pertaining to the treatment of people of color by the criminal justice system.

“I do believe there’s bias,” said the woman. “I’ve seen it in my work.”

The woman also said had formed a somewhat negative opinion of Chauvin. But she said she had sympathy and empathy, not only for Floyd, but for the officers involved.

“Everyone’s lives are changed by this incident and what happened. Everyone’s lives,” she said. “And it’s not easy. For anyone.”

No. 52: Black man, 30s
He said he works in the banking industry and is a youth sports coach.

In his questionnaire, he said he was neutral on Chauvin and Floyd. He said he had seen the video and has wondered why the other officers didn’t intervene.

Prosecutor Steve Schleicher questioned one of the juror's statements made during questioning by the defense. The man had said he didn’t think anyone had the intent to cause Floyd’s death.

Schleicher said Chauvin’s intentions will be contested during the trial and asked him if he’d have a problem setting aside his opinion.

“I don’t think it would be that difficult at all,” he said. “I think I can definitely look at it with an objective point of view.”

No. 55: White woman, 50s
She said she works in health care as an executive assistant.

The juror said she couldn’t watch the full video because she found it too disturbing.

She also said in her questionnaire she has a somewhat negative opinion of Chauvin but that he’s innocent until proven otherwise.

She said she has a somewhat unfavorable opinion of Black Lives Matter, acknowledging that she perceives it to possibly mean that other lives don’t matter. She wrote on her questionnaire, “I believe all lives matter,” according to notes from the pool reporter.

No. 79: Black man, 40s
He said he works in management capacity, and that he has not formed an opinion about who is responsible for Floyd’s death.

In his questionnaire, he said he had a neutral opinion of Chauvin and a “somewhat positive” impression of Floyd.

He said he strongly disagreed with defunding police, noting that his house was burglarized once and he had to call the police. The man said he immigrated to the United States.

No. 85: Multi/mixed race woman, 40s
She said she works in organizational management.

In responses to the court, she said was always taught to respect police but added that she wouldn't have trouble second-guessing their decisions if needed.

“Police officers are human,” she said. “They’re not robots that are programmed to all behave in the exact same way. So I feel like as humans, they can make mistakes as well.”

No. 89: White woman, 50s
She said she’s a cardiac care nurse who lives in the suburbs.

She was questioned in depth about her medical training and whether she would second-guess police on resuscitation efforts. She was also asked whether she would reference her nursing experience during deliberations. She said she could avoid it, and would not act as an expert during deliberations.

“I think I can be impartial and listen to instructions and go with what I’m given and ignore the outside stuff,” she said.

No. 91: Black woman, 60s
She said she’s retired from a job in marketing, and that she has a degree in psychology. She volunteers with underserved youth. She grew up in south Minneapolis near where Floyd died.

She said she watched a few minutes of the bystander video of Floyd’s arrest before shutting it off.

She has a relative who is a Minneapolis police officer but they are not close.

She said she believes Blacks and whites do not receive equal treatment, noting that a white U.S. Capitol riot suspect was allowed to go on vacation in Mexico after she was charged.

She said she doesn’t follow the news closely and does not know enough yet to judge the case one way or another.

No. 92: White woman, 40s
She said she works in communications, and has been with the same company for 15 years.

She disagrees with defunding the police but believes change is needed based on what she's seen in media coverage of racism.

She noted somewhat negative views of both Chauvin and Floyd, that she didn’t believe Floyd deserved to die, and that police used excessive force. But she also noted she didn’t think Floyd was innocent either, according to notes from a pool reporter.

She said she understands there are reasons people struggle with addiction.

No. 96: White woman, 50s
She described herself as an animal lover who is passionate about advocacy for affordable housing and homelessness. She told the court said she recently resigned from her customer service-related job. The juror noted she feels like she is good at de-escalating conflicts and getting both sides to come together for a resolution.

She said she had seen video clips of the bystander video a few times and is also aware of the $27 million settlement.

In her questionnaire, she wrote that the restraint used on Floyd was “ultimately responsible” for his death, but under questioning she acknowledged that was her assumption based on what she had seen. She acknowledged the video may not show the entirety of what happened.

No. 118: White woman, 20s
The juror is a social worker who has relatives who are nurses.

In her line of work, she's had to call the police to remove unruly people. When asked by the prosecution if she's ever seen someone not comply with the police, she said she has not. Schleicher, the prosecutor, wondered if she would blame a person who doesn't comply with police for injuries resulting from a police encounter. She said everyone needs to be treated with respect even if they are suspected of a crime.

She disagrees with defunding police, but under questioning about police reform said that “there are good things and things that should be changed.”

The juror said she’s discussed the case with family members, including one who said they thought Chauvin should not have kept his knee on Floyd's neck for that long.

She said her decision regarding a verdict would not affect her relationship with family and she wouldn't feel the need to justify it. She said she's curious to hear more about police training that may have influenced how the encounter unfolded.

No. 131: White man, 20s
He described himself as an accountant and a sports fan. When asked by Schleicher about his opinion on athletes who “take a knee” during the national anthem, the man said, “I would prefer if someone would express their beliefs in a different manner. But I understand what they are trying to do and raise the dialogue on certain issues.”

The man said that after watching the bystander video from May 25, 2020, he felt like Chauvin’s use of force lasted too long.

He said he generally believes racial minorities are treated unfairly by the criminal justice system.

He strongly disagrees with the notion of defunding the Minneapolis Police Department. “I believe the force is a necessary and integral part of our society,” he said.

The man will be dismissed if none of the other jurors drop out by Monday, when opening statements begin.
 
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The judge specifically said to the jury that they could mimic.. but they didn't have to. MOO it was said earlier this week when many jurors were putting their hands to their necks. So I would assume they could also discuss/do in deliberations?

Oh, yeah, I recall that. I just didn't think they could experiment on each other in the deliberation room. It'd be interesting if they can.
 
So, I don't want to disparage any individual witnesses in this case, but did it strike anyone as odd, that at least 2 witnesses seemed to be under the influence on the stand?

Is that something that would normally be addressed? I have a great deal of sympathy for those who struggle with substance abuse.

Would they be counselled about trying to portray a sober appearance at trial (even if they had to perhaps use a small amount to avoid withdrawal)? I don't require ever seeing this before, so I am genuinely curious.

I would have to take something to be there because I'm sure my anxiety would get the best of me. The retired EMT, I think she was more nervous than anything at first.

Shawanda Hill, I think she was just ticked off that she had to be there for the defense. I think she could have handled it in a better way, but it is what it is, I don't think the jurors would hold that against her either... AND, regardless of her behaviour, you know she is being truthful, because what she said did NOT help the State.IMO I kinda felt bad for both of them.
 
by the end of today Mr. Nelson really looked beaten down. Mr. S. really owned this witness. I can sure see why the state was not interested in hiring him.

I like Nelson. I just don't believe in his defense so far. I wonder why he is doing this alone. It's a lot. It's really a lot. I think he's doing the best job he can do, but he needs a partner attorney to tag team with. Seriously.
 
Thanks for answering! I also thought yesterday didn't feel that great for the State, and I they should have reconsidered the order of their witnesses. Jurors were snoozing and nodding off??? :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:



I totally agree with you about this. Is it because they know so many people are watching? It's like the harder they try the more I don't believe it. I wonder what that is all about?

I followed the Casey Anthony trial. I knew in my heart she did it, but was not shocked they didn't convict after watching the trial.

Of course.. all JMO
Casey Anthony was acquitted because the jury used comments made by defense attorneys as evidence.

I don't think that will happen in this case. JMO
 
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