George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[mom2chloe]

I hope I'm not going to get crucified for this question... but I'm genuinely curious and am looking to understand more...

When GF said he couldn't breath before he was on the ground, and before he was even in the car....
Do you believe he actually couldn't breath? felt like he couldn't breath? And why do you think that was?

I’m admittedly going out on a limb here but is there a possibility that GF was going through withdrawals during this entire fiasco? I initially thought he didn’t comply with cops order to put hands on the wheel because he was high and he could he have been trying to hide the pills. Maybe he was trying to ingest the pills and hence the struggle in the backseat? I’m pretty certain he was either attempting to hide or in-jest. What are the symptoms of being “dope sick”? IMO

 

[magnolia]

You may understand that, but I do not. Can you explain why you understand why they didnt allow her to help?

The firefighter had no credentials. The officers didn't know her. She was standing with a group of people that were showing aggression. The officers had no way of knowing if her intentions were good or bad. IMO

 

[MsBetsy]

First responders yes. Cops? Maybe not? This gives question to whether LE and first responders of any sort were operating under a Covid safe scenario? We don’t know that either but IMO it matters. Greatly!

I'm pretty sure both police officers and firefighters are first responders.

 

[magnolia]

Yes, I can see why too. But likely not for the same reason that you do.

I think that Chauvin thought that big, strong men like George can take anything that is dished out. But surprise, surprise, they can't.

Not when they are in a prone position, their hands are locked behind their back, their own weight is pushing down on their lungs, they are being held down, others weight is pushing down on their lungs, and someone is kneeling on their neck.

I don't think Chauvin thought that George would die, but George did die. And now Chauvin has to face the consequences for his wrong decisions.

I don't know Chauvin. I have no idea what he thought.

 

[mom2chloe]

I hope I'm not going to get crucified for this question... but I'm genuinely curious and am looking to understand more...

When GF said he couldn't breath before he was on the ground, and before he was even in the car....
Do you believe he actually couldn't breath? felt like he couldn't breath? And why do you think that was?

I’m admittedly going out on a limb here but is there a possibility that GF was going through withdrawals during this entire fiasco? I initially thought he didn’t comply with cops order to put hands on the wheel because he was high and he could he have been trying to hide the pills. Maybe he was trying to ingest the pills and hence the struggle in the backseat? I’m pretty certain he was either attempting to hide or in-jest. What are the symptoms of being “dope sick”? IMO

I have no reason to believe that he couldn't breathe at that point. All of the testimony in this trial said that GF couldn't breathe because Chauvin had his knee on his neck while in the prone position. JMO

Dope sick maybe?!

 

[MadMcGoo]

There were at least two people saying, "check his pulse, he's not breathing, he's not moving, he's not responsive right now," for about three or four minutes. The other four or five people weren't saying much at all. There were not many cars going by and there was a fifth police officer across the street. What were the other distractions?

You’ve listed 6-7 people, at least, screaming orders at me. I heard quite a bit of traffic. How much confidence do I put into these new (to me) officers?

 

[SouthAussie]

I don't know Chauvin. I have no idea what he thought.

That's true. So perhaps we also have no idea what he thought about allowing the off-duty firefighter to assist?

 

[MsBetsy]

I’m admittedly going out on a limb here but is there a possibility that GF was going through withdrawals during this entire fiasco? I initially thought he didn’t comply with cops order to put hands on the wheel because he was high and he could he have been trying to hide the pills. Maybe he was trying to ingest the pills and hence the struggle in the backseat? I’m pretty certain he was either attempting to hide or in-jest. What are the symptoms of being “dope sick”? IMO

He didn't look like he was in withdrawal while he was dancing around in the store and talking to the employees.

 

[missy1974]

Ok.. so I've gone back to the State proposed jury instructions (figuring they wouldn't be slanted towards Chauvin at all)

Looking at the manslaughter charge...

if I thought he should be found guilty because I'm not sure how he died but I thought he didn't render aid in a timely manner regardless, I am not even sure I could check off manslaughter???

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgo...646/StateProposedJuryInstructions02082021.pdf

I went looking to see if a police officer is required by law to render medical aid and came across this paper (which focused more on shootings, but still addresses force causing harm and when or if police are required to render aid)

https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/1811/92251/1/OSJCL_V18N1_391.pdf

Although the Supreme Court has held that suspects who suffer an injury during arrest should receive “the needed medical treatment,”47 the Court has so far not defined what constitutes treatment and who is obligated to provide it. The Court has also refused to consider the issue of whether an officer violates the Constitution by failing to provide first aid to an individual whom they have shot.48 Several lower courts, however, have considered the issue and have typically resolved the issue in favor of the officers who failed to render any first aid after a police-involved shooting

 

[SouthAussie]

You’ve listed 6-7 people, at least, screaming orders at me. I heard quite a bit of traffic. How much confidence do I put into these new (to me) officers?

Chauvin was Kueng's training officer. He had also assisted Lane previously, when Lane's training officer wasn't available.

 

[missy1974]

I'm pretty sure both police officers and firefighters are first responders.

I thought they would have a 'duty' to render aid... but after the paper I just read, I'm not so sure now

 

[SouthAussie]

I didn't get to see every bit of the testimony. Did anyone ever mention that there was a history between DC and GF when they were working security at a nightclub? I have read several articles where the owner of the club said the DC didn't like GF. She said DC always escalated a situation in the club pulling out his mace whereas GF was more easy going. It made me wonder whether there was some spite and pay back involved in the takedown.

No history was ever raised in the trial.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Chauvin was Kueng's training officer. He had also assisted Lane previously, when Lane's training officer wasn't available.

So they were new. Either way.

Lane is talking to him. Kueng is talking to him. The FF is yelling at him. The MMA guy is yelling at him. Radio traffic is going on. Vehicle traffic is going on. A couple of other bystanders are yelling at him. GF was resisting.

Where does his attention go?

 

[mom2chloe]

I'm pretty sure both police officers and firefighters are first responders.

He didn't look anything like he was in withdrawal while he was dancing around in the store and talking to the employees.

Maybe due to the lethal dose of fentanyl he had in him? He was buzzed IMO. Even the cashier CM stated he knew he was high on something. IMO

 

[Wild Rose]

Never once was I ever asked to show credentials by LE to aid in the middle of any event in any town that I offered to assist in. Ever.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Never once was I ever asked to show credentials by LE to aid in the middle of any event in any town that I offered to assist in. Ever.

Were you ever in a position similar to this off duty FF? I’m genuinely curious.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

He didn't look anything like he was in withdrawal while he was dancing around in the store and talking to the employees.

He appeared to be under the influence of drugs according to the store clerk Christopher Martin.

 

[SouthAussie]

So they were new. Either way.

Lane is talking to him. Kueng is talking to him. The FF is yelling at him. The MMA guy is yelling at him. Radio traffic is going on. Vehicle traffic is going on. A couple of other bystanders are yelling at him. GF was resisting.

Where does his attention go?

Do we honestly think that he generally worked in silence? Or quiet situations with no/few distractions?
He was trained (40 hours) in crisis intervention. He was likely considered to be the senior officer at the scene. He had been on the force for 19 years.

His attention goes to the task at hand. Like it always should have done.
Thao was attending the 'crowd'. EMTs were on their way. The situation was as under control as it could have been, except George was dying under his knee.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Never once was I ever asked to show credentials by LE to aid in the middle of any event in any town that I offered to assist in. Ever.

You probably didn’t call them b****** either.

 

[mom2chloe]

I'm pretty sure both police officers and firefighters are first responders.

My apology as I misspoke. Cops were there on a criminal complaint. They called for an ambulance and then upgraded the request to light a fire. Criminal complaints differ from emergency response calls IMO
To reiterate we do not know where the blame belongs. An LE called for EMTs and upgraded that call. I’m unsure whether LE is responsible for providing emergency care to a suspected criminal during Covid. Their job is to keep the peace hence why they call for paramedics. IMO