George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[wasnt_me]

"Second, the defendant, acting alone or aided by others, caused the death of George Floyd. “To cause” means to be a substantial causal factor in causing the death. The defendant is criminally liable for all the consequences of his actions that occur in the ordinary and natural course of events, including those consequences brought about by one or more intervening causes that were the natural result of the defendant's acts. The fact that other causes contribute to the death does not relieve the defendant of criminal liability. However, the defendant is not criminally liable if a “superseding cause” caused the death. A “superseding cause” is a cause that comes after the defendant’s acts, alters the natural sequence of events, and produces a result that would not otherwise have occurred. An action that occurs before the defendant’s conduct and is not the sole cause of the death does not constitute a superseding cause."

Above from link at



ETA: One could argue that GF was dead/no pulse/not breathing, and THEN the yelling and interference of the crowd happened also. Just a thought that just came to me.

Yes, so in my example, the defendant directs the person off the road. The helicopter, which comes after the defendant's act, falls to the ground, alters the natural sequents of events -- and causes a result that would have not otherwise occured.

 

[ilovewings]

Yes, it was their responsibility to help him, not hers. The firefighter was not aggressive and was not a distraction, which is what the defense is claiming. She was just trying to help but Chauvin chose to ignore her. That's probably why she ended up calling him a name.

Several witnesses have expressed guilt in not being able to help Floyd. The
17 year old who filmed part of it and the 19 year old clerk seemed to be traumatized by what they saw. I wonder if that's one reason Nelson gave up on the angry mob theory.

He did not give up on the angry mob theory--I am sure he will use that in his closing
argument

 

[kittythehare]

True but as someone that suffers from a major panic disorder (bad enough to cost me 2 really good jobs) you can still have control of yourself at least until you pass out from hyperventilating.

I would never yell out when panicking since I am trying my damnedest to conserve my breath, neither would I struggle.

I knie everyone is different but the whole panic/anxiety thing doesn't look right to me with my 30 years experience.

You are describing a normal, to you, panic attack and that is fine.
However if you were being pushed into an extremely narrow space, forcefully, and with someone's hands on the back of your neck for some of that time, it might add considerably to your distress.
The evidence photos of the rear seat in that police vehicle were EXTREMELY narrow.
In an effort to avoid being placed into an area that would greatly exacerbate your condition by virtue of it's size and your size, could you say you wouldn't resist being brought into such a terrifying state?

I don't you, personally, I mean 'one'.
It was GF's body, not one of ours. He was big.

 

[wasnt_me]

I don't believe Police officers can allow a person off the street to come into close contact with a person they have arrested and restrained. To do so would open the door for a liability case. IMO

If that's true, it was up to Nelson to bring that out on Cross. He did not, so I'm considering the evidence in record, which is that she offered to help and was denied the ability. Unless, did anyone hear that they can't in trial?

 

[wasnt_me]

And if someone was impeding your ability to breathe, you wouldn't struggle?

I would and not by choice. I think it would be a natural reflex.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

To be fair, that was after they wouldn't let her help, and frankly, if cops are that thin-skinned, well, that's a problem. I can't imagine a cop needs to be on the force if he's bothered by someone calling them names or would refuse to let a responder help another person because of name-calling. That's low-rent trashy.

It has nothing to do with being thin-skinned. They have no idea that she is really a firefighter. Anybody can claim that to gain access to the scene. And given the situation with people yelling insults, I can’t blame them. She lost her cool quickly and appeared to be antagonistic. IMO

 

[wasnt_me]

It has nothing to do with being thin-skinned. They have no idea that she is really a firefighter. Anybody can claim that to gain access to the scene. And given the situation with people yelling insults, I can’t blame them. She lost her cool quickly and appeared to be antagonistic. IMO

It very much has to do with thinned skin when I'm responding to someone saying that she called the police a name. That's what I was replying to.

 

[tara83]

It has nothing to do with being thin-skinned. They have no idea that she is really a firefighter. Anybody can claim that to gain access to the scene. And given the situation with people yelling insults, I can’t blame them. She lost her cool quickly and appeared to be antagonistic. IMO

I would also lose my cool quickly if I saw a man kneeling on another's neck for over nine minutes.Imagine watching a man being killed and no one helping him at all?

 

[magnolia]

You are describing a normal, to you, panic attack and that is fine.
However if you were being pushed into an extremely narrow space, forcefully, and with someone's hands on the back of your neck for some of that time, it might add considerably to your distress.
The evidence photos of the rear seat in that police vehicle were EXTREMELY narrow.
In an effort to avoid being placed into an area that would greatly exacerbate your condition by virtue of it's size and your size, could you say you wouldn't resist being brought into such a terrifying state?

I don't you, personally, I mean 'one'.
It was GF's body, not one of ours. He was big.

Did Mr. Floyd have any problem getting in/fitting into the narrow rear seat of the police cruiser in the 2019 incident??

 

[turaj]

Been catching up on "life' today and came home to this in my email Minneapolis Suspends In-Person School Before Chauvin Verdict

I see way back it was discussed...to me this is a perfect example of why sequestration should have happened before now. I am sure there are a few jurors with kids in school and even without kids we call got this email in the area. Will be another point on appeal.

 

[missy1974]

You are describing a normal, to you, panic attack and that is fine.
However if you were being pushed into an extremely narrow space, forcefully, and with someone's hands on the back of your neck for some of that time, it might add considerably to your distress.
The evidence photos of the rear seat in that police vehicle were EXTREMELY narrow.
In an effort to avoid being placed into an area that would greatly exacerbate your condition by virtue of it's size and your size, could you say you wouldn't resist being brought into such a terrifying state?

I don't you, personally, I mean 'one'.
It was GF's body, not one of ours. He was big.

See, this is one of those things ... I wish I hadn't watched the whole video of his 2019 arrest, because it clouds my judgement on the anxiety/claustrophobic thing.

I think the jurors might be able to look at it like it was simply anxiety though.

I do have anxiety.. fairly manageable... it's one of those things that some people just cannot understand it if they have never felt it.

 

[RANCH]

It has nothing to do with being thin-skinned. They have no idea that she is really a firefighter. Anybody can claim that to gain access to the scene. And given the situation with people yelling insults, I can’t blame them. She lost her cool quickly and appeared to be antagonistic. IMO

If she had remained calm and professional, which is how I would expect a firefighter to act under stress, perhaps she would have gained proper recognition from the officers on scene. JMO

 

[wasnt_me]

Did Mr. Floyd have any problem getting in/fitting into the narrow rear seat of the police cruiser in the 2019 incident??

Was it admitted into evidence the part of him getting in there?

 

[tara83]

If she had remained calm and professional, which is how I would expect a firefighter to act under stress, perhaps she would have gained proper recognition from the officers on scene. JMO

She isn't the problem.The police officer who sure wasn't calm and cool while killing a man is.

 

[missy1974]

Did Mr. Floyd have any problem getting in/fitting into the narrow rear seat of the police cruiser in the 2019 incident??

No.

 

[kittythehare]

See, this is one of those things ... I wish I hadn't watched the whole video of his 2019 arrest, because it clouds my judgement on the anxiety/claustrophobic thing.

I think the jurors might be able to look at it like it was simply anxiety though.

I do have anxiety.. fairly manageable... it's one of those things that some people just cannot understand it if they have never felt it.

You know, I didn't watch that. I didn't want to . Should I?

 

[MadMcGoo]

What did anyone in the crowd do that was extremely violent. I missed that.

I never said anyone was. I feel this is becoming argumentative at this point. I’ve tried my best to explain my thoughts and I’m not great at it. Obviously most don’t understand me or my point of view and even less agree. If I can think of a better way to explain, I will.

 

[BoyThatsWeird]

The still shots the prosecutors showed on the last day where Chauvin had his arm around GF's neck inside the squad car hurt them more than it helped. When shown the full video of that portion of the incident shortly after, it was obvious that Chauvin was just pulling GF out of the squad car and his arm was very loosely around GFs neck/shoulder area. The split second DC's foot was lifted off the pavement was another. The way they showed that all his weight must've been on GF since there is a split second where his toe is lifted that they found by going through frame by frame.

IMO, and possibly in the minds of at least one juror, it looked so weak. Like is your case so weak that you need to go frame-by-frame and insinuate/show split seconds of a video to try to get a "gotcha" moment.

 

[kittythehare]

If she had remained calm and professional, which is how I would expect a firefighter to act under stress, perhaps she would have gained proper recognition from the officers on scene. JMO

I don't blame her for losing the rag.
But, I very much doubt she would have been allowed to assist in those conditions, legally.
LE were the custodians until they handed him over to the paramedics who then became the custodians.
I imagine there are written guidelines in this regard.
IMO there are rarely breaches.
Bystanders are frequently a nightmare for health care professionals dealing with an emergency. They all have different stories. I recall one night being called to a RTA and there were about 80 bystanders all telling us the patiets were in different fields, pitch black and black ice on the roads..
That's irrelevant, really because it's from a paramedic's perspective, but I think LE guidelines are even tighter.

They COULD have listened to her, however, there weren't many of them and she was rightly claiming the patient was dying. They could, at least have considered her words.

 

[missy1974]

You know, I didn't watch that. I didn't want to . Should I?

It's up to you

sorry, I should have added the link in my other post.. trying to work (not hard haha)

RAW VIDEO: Body camera video shows arrest of George Floyd in 2019