George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[MadMcGoo]

Sorry you perceive the question that way. I only wanted to know what they did that was violent. That's all.

I wasn’t saying they did do something violent. I was pointing out that people, no matter the age, can turn violent for no apparent reason. And quickly at that. We can look back now and see that no one got violent. But in that moment, there was absolutely no way to know that.

As to the “tasks”, I believe I was speaking to the different areas his attention would/could have been.

 

[missy1974]

The still shots the prosecutors showed on the last day where Chauvin had his arm around GF's neck inside the squad car hurt them more than it helped. When shown the full video of that portion of the incident shortly after, it was obvious that Chauvin was just pulling GF out of the squad car and his arm was very loosely around GFs neck/shoulder area. The split second DC's foot was lifted off the pavement was another. The way they showed that all his weight must've been on GF since there is a split second where his toe is lifted that they found by going through frame by frame.

IMO, and possibly in the minds of at least one juror, it looked so weak. Like is your case so weak that you need to go frame-by-frame and insinuate/show split seconds of a video to try to get a "gotcha" moment.

Nelson pointed that out numerous times too. That taking a still photo was a bit deceiving. That said... I have watched those videos so many times now, there is still things I have missed and I still question what the State transcripts say was said.. when and by who (which was not entered into evidence)

 

[wasnt_me]

I don't blame her for losing the rag.
But, I very much doubt she would have been allowed to assist in those conditions, legally.
LE were the custodians until they handed him over to the paramedics who then became the custodians.
I imagine there are written guidelines in this regard.
IMO there are rarely breaches.
Bystanders are frequently a nightmare for health care professionals dealing with an emergency. They all have different stories. I recall one night being called to a RTA and there were about 80 bystanders all telling us the patiets were in different fields, pitch black and black ice on the roads..
That's irrelevant, really because it's from a paramedic's perspective, but I think LE guidelines are even tighter.

They COULD have listened to her, however, there weren't many of them and she was rightly claiming the patient was dying. They could, at least have considered her words.

I agree with this, but I contend that the reasonable among them did listen and actually took the pulse and actually came to the conclusion that GF should be rolled over. DC and TT might be the only people on that scene who didn't think or were unaware that GF needed medical attention. TT was tending to the crowd. DC has no excuse.

 

[wasnt_me]

I wasn’t saying they did do something violent. I was pointing out that people, no matter the age, can turn violent for no apparent reason. And quickly at that. We can look back now and see that no one got violent. But in that moment, there was absolutely no way to know that.

As to the “tasks”, I believe I was speaking to the different areas his attention would/could have been.

Okay. It's my understanding that cops have to operate in choatic situations, some much more so than this one. I believe someone pointed out on the stand that there wasn't even a gathering of people for about 3 minutes into the neck restraint, and GF was almost dead by then, wasn't he? I don't know the exact times when the person testified there wasn't much of a gathering, but I think that what actually happened needs to be taken into consideration, not what could happen.

The officers were not so worried about any gather of bystanders that they didn't shield their backsides or call for backup. TT tasked himself with handling the bystanders, which had gathered from what we see, only on one side of the car. I don't recall Lang being interrupted on his bodycam by anyone trying to approach him at GF's feet. I don't recall anyone walking up behind the 3 officers on GF except the firefighter and then the EMS.

I just don't see how a gathering that size was a challenge to 5 officers. The park officer didn't even see the need to cuff the other two and come over to assist. Nor did he try to call for backup. He never, on his cam, seems to worry about the gathering either.

I don't know what else DC's attention was on but GF. I'm not arguing, just stating what I see. we can agree to disagree.

 

[MsBetsy]

It has nothing to do with being thin-skinned. They have no idea that she is really a firefighter. Anybody can claim that to gain access to the scene. And given the situation with people yelling insults, I can’t blame them. She lost her cool quickly and appeared to be antagonistic. IMO

I don't know why they even bothered asking her if she was really a firefighter, then. Either way, they didn't need her help. They could have easily given Floyd CPR themselves. The reason the onlookers were getting so upset was because the officers wouldn't help him even after he was unresponsive. The officer said himself that he had passed out and they still did nothing.

It's a normal reaction to want to help but feel helpless because you can't. The fire chief who arrived at the scene and spoke to her later sent someone out to check on her, he was so concerned. I think people forget how traumatized these witnesses were and still are. The 17 year old said she still dreams about saving him. They all seemed to carry some degree of guilt or self-blame, even though none of it was their fault and it was out of their control. Imo

 

[kittythehare]

It's up to you

sorry, I should have added the link in my other post.. trying to work (not hard haha)

RAW VIDEO: Body camera video shows arrest of George Floyd in 2019

Thank you.
Reading about it and watching it were two very different experiences.
They treated him with gentleness, empathy and respect and they got the job done efficiently.
And they kept their hands off his neck when they were loading him into the police car.
The difference between professional LE and bullies.
This is de-escalation at it's finest. George was well steamed.
They didn't make it worse and respect to them for that.
They're not all bad.
When she said 'George, RELAX', George heard her and he did actually relax.
It's not so hard when you know how.

 

[SouthAussie]

Okay. It's my understanding that cops have to operate in choatic situations, some much more so than this one. I believe someone pointed out on the stand that there wasn't even a gathering of people for about 3 minutes into the neck restraint, and GF was almost dead by then, wasn't he? I don't know the exact times when the person testified there wasn't much of a gathering, but I think that what actually happened needs to be taken into consideration, not what could happen.

The officers were not so worried about any gather of bystanders that they didn't shield their backsides or call for backup. TT tasked himself with handling the bystanders, which had gathered from what we see, only on one side of the car. I don't recall Lang being interrupted on his bodycam by anyone trying to approach him at GF's feet. I don't recall anyone walking up behind the 3 officers on GF except the firefighter and then the EMS.

I just don't see how a gathering that size was a challenge to 5 officers. The park officer didn't even see the need to cuff the other two and come over to assist. Nor did he try to call for backup. He never, on his cam, seems to worry about the gathering either.

I don't know what else DC's attention was on but GF. I'm not arguing, just stating what I see. we can agree to disagree.

As well, the dispatcher didn't seem concerned about any danger to the police during this terrible incident "they haven't called for backup", she was concerned that the officers were all sitting on George - unmoving - every time she looked at the CCTV.

 

[BoyThatsWeird]

I don't know why they even bothered asking her if she was really a firefighter, then. Either way, they didn't need her help. They could have easily given Floyd CPR themselves. The reason the onlookers were getting so upset was because the officers wouldn't help him even after he was unresponsive. The officer said himself that he had passed out and they still did nothing.

It's a normal reaction to want to help but feel helpless because you can't. The fire chief who arrived at the scene and spoke to her later sent someone out to check on her, he was so concerned. I think people forget how traumatized these witnesses were and still are. The 17 year old said she still dreams about saving him. They all seemed to carry some degree of guilt or self-blame, even though none of it was their fault and it was out of their control. Imo

Really valid point. I felt terrible for the store clerk who testified. And you could tell he meant it when he said that he feels guilty that he could've just taken the $20 note even though he knew it was fake. That kid appeared totally shaken up by the whole event.

 

[missy1974]

Thank you.
Reading about it and watching it were two very different experiences.
They treated him with gentleness, empathy and respect and they got the job done efficiently.
And they kept their hands off his neck when they were loading him into the police car.
The difference between professional LE and bullies.
This is de-escalation at it's finest. George was well steamed.
They didn't make it worse and respect to them for that.
They're not all bad.
When she said 'George, RELAX', George heard her and he did actually relax.
It's not so hard when you know how.

but he didn't resist getting into the car. JMO

 

[wasnt_me]

Really valid point. I felt terrible for the store clerk who testified. And you could tell he meant it when he said that he feels guilty that he could've just taken the $20 note even though he knew it was fake. That kid appeared totally shaken up by the whole event.

Yes, I believe he even testified that he'd offered to just pay the $20 himself, but the manager declined.

 

[kittythehare]

but he didn't resist getting into the car. JMO

No but they made light of his size and the vehicle size. They acknowledged it. That he would have to 'slide in'.
Also on that occasion I think he had a lot more drugs in than in the fatal encounter.

 

[missy1974]

No but they made light of his size and the vehicle size. They acknowledged it. That he would have to 'slide in'.
Also on that occasion I think he had a lot more drugs in than in the fatal encounter.

All we know about the drugs he had in that incident was 8 or so percocets IIRC Wasn't fentanyl/meth as far as I know? He may have but I don't think we know, we only know what the EMT was allowed to testify about.

 

[kittythehare]

All we know about the drugs he had in that incident was 8 or so percocets IIRC Wasn't fentanyl/meth as far as I know? He may have but I don't think we know, we only know what the EMT was allowed to testify about.

They were funny, really.. 'you want a photo of this pill'.. A. 'I got enough pills'
I smiled cos the two boys were so dozey on their day out and get busted.
But they knew how to deescalate, George was WILD. But even in his wildness he still respected the female LEO enough to listen to her and obey.. It was remarkable.
I think the odds are high that ad he encountered the same or similarly trained officers on the day he died, George would still be alive today.

 

[kittythehare]

All we know about the drugs he had in that incident was 8 or so percocets IIRC Wasn't fentanyl/meth as far as I know? He may have but I don't think we know, we only know what the EMT was allowed to testify about.

He had coke as well.
This AP from March
In the first arrest, several opioid pills and cocaine were found. An autopsy showed Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system when he died.
Battle over Floyd's 2019 arrest highlights key trial issue

 

[magnolia]

If that's true, it was up to Nelson to bring that out on Cross. He did not, so I'm considering the evidence in record, which is that she offered to help and was denied the ability. Unless, did anyone hear that they can't in trial?

It's really common knowledge that police officers keep people a safe distance from a person they have detained. They have a duty to protect the public from a person they have arrested. This goes without saying. I don't expect the deal with the firefighter to be a big factor in regards to the Jury. IMO

 

[magnolia]

I never said anyone was. I feel this is becoming argumentative at this point. I’ve tried my best to explain my thoughts and I’m not great at it. Obviously most don’t understand me or my point of view and even less agree. If I can think of a better way to explain, I will.

You are find MadMcGoo. I think many understand your point of view. I certainly do.

 

[RANCH]

It's really common knowledge that police officers keep people a safe distance from a person they have detained. They have a duty to protect the public from a person they have arrested. This goes without saying. I don't expect the deal with the firefighter to be a big factor in regards to the Jury. IMO

The firefighter needs to learn to not be so combative with people. She even had problems during her testimony. JMO

Chauvin trial updates: Testimony ends abruptly as firefighter witness scolded by court

Toward the end of the day, Judge Peter Cahill dismissed the jury and scolded Hansen not to argue with the court or counsel.

Chauvin trial updates: Testimony ends abruptly as firefighter witness scolded by court | Duluth News Tribune

 

[ilovewings]

It has nothing to do with being thin-skinned. They have no idea that she is really a firefighter. Anybody can claim that to gain access to the scene. And given the situation with people yelling insults, I can’t blame them. She lost her cool quickly and appeared to be antagonistic. IMO

I don't think the police can allow strangers to get involved in any type of situation where they have a person in custody. That would not happen. I don't hold this against the police at that scene but I believe Chauvin is guilty--not sure yet what degree.

 

[Wild Rose]

You only have to respond a few times to incidents of breathing difficulties....the 4 year old completely choking on a hot dog slice with seconds to reverse it...the asthmatic teen completely hunched over not able to take a breath in...the victim asphixiating on his own vomit...to dread the calls of "I can't breathe". You recognize "I can't breathe" statements can go south so very quickly and you immediately have to help. Not a second is invaluable. That is always a scary statement to hear.

 

[tara83]

You only have to respond a few times to incidents of breathing difficulties....the 4 year old completely choking on a hot dog slice with seconds to reverse it...the asthmatic teen completely hunched over not able to take a breath in...the victim asphixiating on his own vomit...to dread the calls of "I can't breathe". You recognize "I can't breathe" statements can go south so very quickly and you immediately have to help. Not a second is invaluable. That is always a scary statement to hear.

I'll always wonder what was was going on in Chauvin's mind and why he wouldn't help Floyd.Was it oblivious,didn't care,wanted to show the crowd up?We will never know because I wouldn't expect him to give an honest answer.No matter what happens in this trial I believe he will have to answer to a higher power one day.