Detail From Kolar's Book

[UKGuy]

@UKGuy and @Rain on my Parade,

Do you think it is possible that those marks were made after the head injury during the movement of JBR to the basement and before the ligature asphyxiation? Most theories assume an adult "carried" her down there but if a smaller person were doing it the process could have been more complicated. Thoughts?

root661,
It depends on your favorite theory, e.g. Head Injury first, Ligature Asphyxiation second?

An alternative scenario is Manual Strangulation, i.e. Choke Hold, etc which leaves JonBenet in a coma due to excess pressure on her vagus nerve. This might explain the marks.

The Head Injury might represent a failed attempt at staging her death, e.g. no visible sign of death?

The Ligature Asphyxiation does exhibit a sign of death, and was deliberate, i.e. no call to 911 for medical assistance, the person asphyxiating JonBenet did not want her to be able to talk.

Some of the contusions and abrasions noted on JonBenet's body, e.g. her back and legs might represent her body being dragged from one location to another, indicating the dragger did not have the strength to carry her?

That is, it is possible that another child could have moved JonBenet down to the basement?

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[Rain on my Parade]

@UKGuy and @Rain on my Parade,

Do you think it is possible that those marks were made after the head injury during the movement of JBR to the basement and before the ligature asphyxiation? Most theories assume an adult "carried" her down there but if a smaller person were doing it the process could have been more complicated. Thoughts?

root661,
IMO the manual strangulation happened first, then the ligature was used as a coverup. Also, IMO the head injury took place before the ligature.

Perhaps, the rage started on the first floor where JB was manually strangled. Then she was struck over the head then dragged down the basement stairs. The sexual torture was used here as well as the ligature.

Those marks that you are referring to I assume is the triangular bruise around JB collar bone. There were scrapes on her leg, back and shoulder. I agree with UKGuy, perhaps these took place dragging her into cellar. Yet ... there was bleeding so she was alive at this point.

Again, IMO JB was unconscious after being struck over the head and I feel her life ended where she voided outside the wine cellar door.

 

[TinaD]

I just had a thought about the size 12 panties, that hasn't occurred to me before. What if that part of the staging, along with the blanket, were actually added after the police arrived? We know that John disappeared for a while during the morning. Perhaps he'd realised they weren't going to be able to dispose of the body, and so he did what he could (and moved her) using what was available. And the only panties he had access to were in the basement. We don't know for certain that they were wrapped in gift wrapping - they could have been visible, and used by John because they were there.

 

[Veronica Lodge]

I just had a thought about the size 12 panties, that hasn't occurred to me before. What if that part of the staging, along with the blanket, were actually added after the police arrived? We know that John disappeared for a while during the morning. Perhaps he'd realised they weren't going to be able to dispose of the body, and so he did what he could (and moved her) using what was available. And the only panties he had access to were in the basement. We don't know for certain that they were wrapped in gift wrapping - they could have been visible, and used by John because they were there.

The trouble with that is there is a urine stain on the size 12's and the longjohn pants which indicate they were put on her prior to her death. I agree that the size 12's weren't wrapped up. Christmas was done, those panties were not being sent to anyone.
I often wonder what JR was doing when he disappeared - moving golf bags, a scarf, emptying a cigar box, - maybe wiping a golf club?, also yes possibly adding the white blanket?

 

[proust20]

Of course, JR carried the body upstairs from the WC. As a result, there are no photos of the JB's final resting place. The complete effect of the staging has never been experienced by any but the person(s) responsible for it. There was a lot of effort that went by the wayside.

When it comes to the long johns and the size 12s, I think the question ought to be not only who did it, but why?

 

[SandyQLS]

The trouble with that is there is a urine stain on the size 12's and the longjohn pants which indicate they were put on her prior to her death. I agree that the size 12's weren't wrapped up. Christmas was done, those panties were not being sent to anyone.
I often wonder what JR was doing when he disappeared - moving golf bags, a scarf, emptying a cigar box, - maybe wiping a golf club?, also yes possibly adding the white blanket?

Thank you for reminding everyone about the urine stains on the size 12s and longjohns.

iirc PR was first diagnosed with ovarian cancer in July 1983. JBR was just turning three the next month August, while BR was already 6 1/2 and had completed a year of kindergarten. NPR's mother comes to CO - to take care of a very sick PR. The Ramseys had a part-time housekeeper to clean and do laundry. But these wealthy people never bothered to acquire the services of a Nanny for the children even though they could afford one. My point is that BR was already long past the toddler concerns of toilet training, and he moved on in the fall to first grade, later second grade, etc. on schedule. Older children do not usually revert in toilet training under stress IMO. However, when her Mommy became so ill at such a tender age 2 turning 3, it is JBR whose toilet training lapsed and regressed. It is JBR who continued to have issues with wetting her pants and needing toilet assistance at age 6 1/2. It is JBR who started kindergarten a year behind. On page 1 of this thread and referencing Kolar's book, aspersions are again cast on BR and feces smearing, as though that makes sense when referring to a successful child who is progressing normally. It is JBR who suffered toilet issues and then an ongoing control and power struggle with PR.

Was JBR wearing the size 12s and longjohns all evening and simply wet herself? Did JBR put them on herself? Did JBR "steal" the desired panties for herself in defiance of PR? Are the urine stains the result of the severe head blow? Did the urine stain develop at strangulation-death?

At what point was JBR wearing the size12s and longjohns? I don't think we will ever know.

 

[proust20]

JB had her own set of size 6 Days-of-the-Week Bloomies. As she could not read, it would have been difficult for her to select the correct Wednesday pair.

 

[Veronica Lodge]

On page 1 of this thread and referencing Kolar's book, aspersions are again cast on BR and feces smearing, as though that makes sense when referring to a successful child who is progressing normally. It is JBR who suffered toilet issues and then an ongoing control and power struggle with PR.

I agree. I tend to think any faeces are JonBenet's - especially as all her underpants had staining and the reasons you mention. The whole chocolate box thing never made any sense either to me, I think wires got crossed there.

Was JBR wearing the size 12s and longjohns all evening and simply wet herself? Did JBR put them on herself? Did JBR "steal" the desired panties for herself in defiance of PR? Are the urine stains the result of the severe head blow? Did the urine stain develop at strangulation-death?

At what point was JBR wearing the size12s and longjohns? I don't think we will ever know.

The size 12 were WAY too big for her. Ridiculously big. I think they were put on by JR as they were close to hand (as were the pair of longjohns) and the top part matched the pair he had to get rid of. The timeline points to the urine stain being from her bladder releasing at death.

When it comes to the long johns and the size 12s, I think the question ought to be not only who did it, but why?

My opinion it was JR to cover things up from Patsy. He only needed a bit of the band (Wednesday) to show at the top of her pants. He got rid of the incriminating size 6's and threw blame everywhere else.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree. I tend to think any faeces are JonBenet's - especially as all her underpants had staining and the reasons you mention. The whole chocolate box thing never made any sense either to me, I think wires got crossed there.



The size 12 were WAY too big for her. Ridiculously big. I think they were put on by JR as they were close to hand (as were the pair of longjohns) and the top part matched the pair he had to get rid of. The timeline points to the urine stain being from her bladder releasing at death.




My opinion it was JR to cover things up from Patsy. He only needed a bit of the band (Wednesday) to show at the top of her pants. He got rid of the incriminating size 6's and threw blame everywhere else.

Veronica Lodge,

I agree. I tend to think any faeces are JonBenet's - especially as all her underpants had staining and the reasons you mention. The whole chocolate box thing never made any sense either to me, I think wires got crossed there.

This might be the case but were any dna lab tests undertaken to confirm this, easy to do, as they tested other items?

The size 12 were WAY too big for her. Ridiculously big. I think they were put on by JR as they were close to hand (as were the pair of longjohns) and the top part matched the pair he had to get rid of. The timeline points to the urine stain being from her bladder releasing at death.

The size-12 underwear replaced JonBenet's size-6 underwear. The urine stain could precede JonBenet being asphyxiated.

My opinion it was JR to cover things up from Patsy. He only needed a bit of the band (Wednesday) to show at the top of her pants. He got rid of the incriminating size 6's and threw blame everywhere else.

The top part of the size-12's is redundant, since Patsy would take one look at JonBenet, see Burke's long johns and know immediately she had been redressed, more so if JonBenet had not been wearing a pair of size-6 Bloomingdale's which were Wednesday Day Of The Week, only BPD know the answer here and they are not telling.

Then we have to explain how JR knew about the size-12 Bloomingdale's and where they were located?

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[Veronica Lodge]

Veronica Lodge,

This might be the case but were any dna lab tests undertaken to confirm this, easy to do, as they tested other items?
.

Frustratingly we don't know The whole 'faeces here, there and everywhere' gets bigger as the years go by it seems.

The top part of the size-12's is redundant, since Patsy would take one look at JonBenet, see Burke's long johns and know immediately she had been redressed, more so if JonBenet had not been wearing a pair of size-6 Bloomingdale's which were Wednesday Day Of The Week, only BPD know the answer here and they are not telling.

Then we have to explain how JR knew about the size-12 Bloomingdale's and where they were located?

The thing is, it may not actually be that unusual for JonBenet to wear the hand-me-downs as pj pants. They'd actually be pretty comfy. And if she'd had an accident in her normal PJ bottoms, it may be a usual occurrence that she grabs the long johns. She's not on show at night, plus lots of accidents so who cares if they aren't the most attractive looking clothing?

If Burke were dressing her, I don't see him being concerned about her underpants. Certainly not enough to open a new packet and get out the Wednesday pair.
As for who knew about the size 12's you could ask the same of BR as JR. Why would a 9 year old boy know about a underpants gift his female cousin was supposedly getting for Christmas?
Yes, where were the Size 12's located? Would be very helpful if we knew. That and answers to heaps of other questions in this case!

 

[UKGuy]

Frustratingly we don't know The whole 'faeces here, there and everywhere' gets bigger as the years go by it seems.



The thing is, it may not actually be that unusual for JonBenet to wear the hand-me-downs as pj pants. They'd actually be pretty comfy. And if she'd had an accident in her normal PJ bottoms, it may be a usual occurrence that she grabs the long johns. She's not on show at night, plus lots of accidents so who cares if they aren't the most attractive looking clothing?

If Burke were dressing her, I don't see him being concerned about her underpants. Certainly not enough to open a new packet and get out the Wednesday pair.
As for who knew about the size 12's you could ask the same of BR as JR. Why would a 9 year old boy know about a underpants gift his female cousin was supposedly getting for Christmas?
Yes, where were the Size 12's located? Would be very helpful if we knew. That and answers to heaps of other questions in this case!

Veronica Lodge,

Frustratingly we don't know The whole 'faeces here, there and everywhere' gets bigger as the years go by it seems.

Sure, but any claim that all the fecal matter belonged to JonBenet can obviously be tested.

The thing is, it may not actually be that unusual for JonBenet to wear the hand-me-downs as pj pants. They'd actually be pretty comfy. And if she'd had an accident in her normal PJ bottoms, it may be a usual occurrence that she grabs the long johns. She's not on show at night, plus lots of accidents so who cares if they aren't the most attractive looking clothing?

BBM: I agree, but if you accept that what you have has been staged and along with JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms missing, we can assume that JonBenet did not go to bed wearing Burke's long johns, irrespective of how comfy they are.

JonBenet was wearing her pink pajama set on Christmas Eve, Burke Ramsey wore his Blue Cruising Top and Blue Pajama bottoms. So there is no reason not to assume that JonBenet wore the same pink pajama set on Christmas Day night?
Here is JonBenet's bed with her Pink Pajama Top on the mattress

and a closeup

Which is why regardless of whatever Bloomingdale's JonBenet was redressed in Patsy would know right away that she had been redressed.

In essence this is what makes the size-12's redundant, only a child would make such a mistake, one that was over-thinking the situation, but with a misplaced sense of certainty that the size-12's were just fine.

Last known photo of JonBenet

I cannot imagine JonBenet, photographed above, wearing size-12's beneath her velvet pants.

If Burke were dressing her, I don't see him being concerned about her underpants. Certainly not enough to open a new packet and get out the Wednesday pair.
As for who knew about the size 12's you could ask the same of BR as JR. Why would a 9 year old boy know about a underpants gift his female cousin was supposedly getting for Christmas?

Well here is what Kolar states in his book:
James Kolar, Foreign Faction, Excerpt

I learned, over the course of my inquiry, that it was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this. Patsy had also told investigators that the unwrapped box of Lego toys in the same room was being hidden for Burke's upcoming January birthday.

I didn?t give much thought about the presence of Christmas presents in the room at the time, but would later think these played a role in some of the events that took place on Christmas day.

Could be Burke knew Christmas Day afternoon that there was Bloomingdale's underwear in the basement as he had unwrapped them?

 

[proust20]

Understandably, Kolar was and is vague about much, including the gifts with torn wrapping. That he thinks this evidence significant is given emphasis by the inclusion of a photo of them in FF. PR lying about it is noteworthy also. Hiding the Legos from BR in the WC so close to the train room seems an ineffective ploy. BR could have been miffed to discover that the promisingly large package contained only more Legos? Dashed expectations leading to anger?

If the size 12s were gift wrapped is unknown. If PR were to send them to her niece, shouldn't they have been on the way to Jenny by the 25th? There'd not be time to get them off when returning from MI, as the Rs were to depart at once for their cruise. It doesn't seem like nouveau-riche PR not to observe the etiquette of gift giving with her family, especially when it came to Christmas, an event about which she went overboard. How many Christmas trees are too many?

 

[UKGuy]

Understandably, Kolar was and is vague about much, including the gifts with torn wrapping. That he thinks this evidence significant is given emphasis by the inclusion of a photo of them in FF. PR lying about it is noteworthy also. Hiding the Legos from BR in the WC so close to the train room seems an ineffective ploy. BR could have been miffed to discover that the promisingly large package contained only more Legos? Dashed expectations leading to anger?

If the size 12s were gift wrapped is unknown. If PR were to send them to her niece, shouldn't they have been on the way to Jenny by the 25th? There'd not be time to get them off when returning from MI, as the Rs were to depart at once for their cruise. It doesn't seem like nouveau-riche PR not to observe the etiquette of gift giving with her family, especially when it came to Christmas, an event about which she went overboard. How many Christmas trees are too many?

proust20,
Why is the Lego Set in the wine-cellar, we have to assume Burke found it when searching the basement Christmas Day?

The size-12's are an unexplained mystery unless you believe what Patsy said about buying them for her niece?

I reckon nearly everything was fabricated into a fake narrative so to hide prior forensic evidence.

The wine-cellar really acts as dump site for various forensic artifact.

So the size-12's, the Lego Set, the pink nightgown and the blanket, etc all played a different role in the death of JonBenet?

Just ask: Are size-12 Bloomingdale's really a suitable Christmas Gift coming from a wealthy family like the Ramsey's?

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[Rain on my Parade]

Why is the Lego Set in the wine-cellar, we have to assume Burke found it when searching the basement Christmas Day?

UKGuy,
Assume is the key word here. Maybe it was a partially opened Christmas gift that he wanted to play with that night. I know I have read that she liked stepping on his legos and making him mad.

The size-12's are an unexplained mystery unless you believe what Patsy said about buying them for her niece?

How else are we going to explain the size 12’s presence? Why didn’t they just leave her original underpants on. After all we are talking about intruders; if we believe the R’s. What were they covering up here? Dna perhaps?

I reckon nearly everything was fabricated into a fake narrative so to hide prior forensic evidence.

The flashlight would be a perfect example of this IMOO. Opps, they forget about the pineapple and maybe the stagers didn’t know she ate the pineapple and that is the reason for it being overlooked.

The wine-cellar really acts as dump site for various forensic artifact.

So the size-12's, the Lego Set, the pink nightgown and the blanket, etc all played a different role in the death of JonBenet?

Yes, sounds plausible.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Assume is the key word here. Maybe it was a partially opened Christmas gift that he wanted to play with that night. I know I have read that she liked stepping on his legos and making him mad.



How else are we going to explain the size 12’s presence? Why didn’t they just leave her original underpants on. After all we are talking about intruders; if we believe the R’s. What were they covering up here? Dna perhaps?



The flashlight would be a perfect example of this IMOO. Opps, they forget about the pineapple and maybe the stagers didn’t know she ate the pineapple and that is the reason for it being overlooked.



Yes, sounds plausible.

Rain on my Parade,

Assume is the key word here. Maybe it was a partially opened Christmas gift that he wanted to play with that night. I know I have read that she liked stepping on his legos and making him mad.

Yes, very much so, something along those lines.

How else are we going to explain the size 12’s presence? Why didn’t they just leave her original underpants on. After all we are talking about intruders; if we believe the R’s. What were they covering up here? Dna perhaps?

We can explain the size-12's presence, but not who redressed JonBenet in them. The size-12's are, IMO, prior staging. Intended to replace her size-6 underwear worn to the White's. Yes, dna, or simply extensive internal bleeding.

One area in which the parents got the staging wrong was in an attempt to make the kidnapping scenario look like a bona fide abduction, i.e. no external sign of sexual asault, so no bloodstains allowed?

The flashlight would be a perfect example of this IMOO. Opps, they forget about the pineapple and maybe the stagers didn’t know she ate the pineapple and that is the reason for it being overlooked.

BBM: Definitely. Or simply forgot about it in the chaos?

Also most of the objects left in the wine-cellar originate from upstairs. The big clue for me was JR saying he knew all about the Partially Opened Gifts and Patsy did not. From memory, on a timeline basis he was the first to make a statement on this subject. Having compared and contrasted the various statements made about the Partially Opened Gifts I arrived at them being used elsewhere, but dumped into the wine-cellar as the most consistent explanation for their location in the wine-cellar.

i.e. forensic evidence was re-located down to the basement to break any link with say a bedroom upstairs?

It could be there are other childrens Christmas Gifts distributed about the house, but missed as nobody realized how relevant they might be.

This would explain why there is no video footage or photographs, etc, as the gifts would appear in the photos, thus revealing they played a role?

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[proust20]

It is an interesting idea to consider the size 12s, Legos, nightgown and blanket as a unity, and not as distinct elements. All could have been put in the WC as they shared together some aspect of the crime? The knife ought to be included with these items. I'm not sure if the boot print should be as well.

My understanding is that when JB was wiped, the size 12s had to be pulled down in order to do this. If SA were the catalyst of events, then the significance of the size 12s could be an erotic one? The predilections of JB's abuser(s) are not known.

The disconnect between RN and WC is peculiar. There is no way to determine when the RN was written in relation to the final staging.

 

[UKGuy]

It is an interesting idea to consider the size 12s, Legos, nightgown and blanket as a unity, and not as distinct elements. All could have been put in the WC as they shared together some aspect of the crime? The knife ought to be included with these items. I'm not sure if the boot print should be as well.

My understanding is that when JB was wiped, the size 12s had to be pulled down in order to do this. If SA were the catalyst of events, then the significance of the size 12s could be an erotic one? The predilections of JB's abuser(s) are not known.

The disconnect between RN and WC is peculiar. There is no way to determine when the RN was written in relation to the final staging.

proust20,
I reckon the size-12's are meant as staging, there might some erotic symbolism, but simply dressing JonBenet seems to be the motive?

Coroner Meyer observes evidennce of JonBenet being wiped down while wearing the size-12's:

December 29, 1996, BPD Search Warrant for Boulder, Colorado 15th Street, Excerpt

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed the Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in that area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's pubic area having been wiped by a cloth.

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[proust20]

If JB had been wiped after the size 12s were put on her, then the person who wiped her was likely not the one who dressed JB? Dr. Wecht stated that he detected the presence of a substance like talcum powder on this area of her body. Was such powder found in the house? I do not know if DR. W were the only one to come to this conclusion, as I do not see it mentioned often.

Another oddity of the case is how the motif of the underwear weaves through the main theme of Christmas. Subsequent events seem to flow from the visit to Bloomingdale's.

As the wiping down, the white blanket, the Barbie nightgown, the drawn on heart could all be seen as gestures of comfort for the dead child; may it be inferred that these were not done by the killer? or rather as symptoms of guilt by the killer?

 

[UKGuy]

If JB had been wiped after the size 12s were put on her, then the person who wiped her was likely not the one who dressed JB? Dr. Wecht stated that he detected the presence of a substance like talcum powder on this area of her body. Was such powder found in the house? I do not know if DR. W were the only one to come to this conclusion, as I do not see it mentioned often.

Another oddity of the case is how the motif of the underwear weaves through the main theme of Christmas. Subsequent events seem to flow from the visit to Bloomingdale's.

As the wiping down, the white blanket, the Barbie nightgown, the drawn on heart could all be seen as gestures of comfort for the dead child; may it be inferred that these were not done by the killer? or rather as symptoms of guilt by the killer?

proust20,
Frome memory the subject of talcum powder refers to JonBenet Autopsy Report, Excerpt

Vaginal Mucosa:
A small number of red blod cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringement foreign matarial

...

i.e. Dr. Wecht is suggesting the birefringement foreign matarial is a talcum powder like substance.

Clarification: Coroner Meyer and BPD would know exactly what the birefringement foreign matarial actually was as the lab results would identify it precisely.

Steve Thomas in his book more or less says it was splinters, presumably from the paintbrush, e.g. insertion?

As the wiping down, the white blanket, the Barbie nightgown, the drawn on heart could all be seen as gestures of comfort for the dead child; may it be inferred that these were not done by the killer? or rather as symptoms of guilt by the killer?

Yes, it can be inferred these items are present because they represent the mind of the killer.

Yet, the inference might not be valid as the items in the wine-cellar might simply be there so to remove them from another location?

The thing about the underwear nobody really knows if Patsy was truthful in regard to her account of the size-12's, were they really purchased for her niece Jenny, why did she not then send them in time for Christmas?

Her talk about JonBenet asking for them is nonsense as Paty could have phoned Bloomingdales any day of the week and had set mailed or fedexed to her house.

In her BPD interview Patsy clearly states she purchased a set of Bloomingdale's underwear for JonBenet, i.e. JonBenet selected them, and a set for her niece Jenny.

The Jenny aspect is questionable, given what we now know.

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[SweaterGirl]

I still wonder about the child SA angle. I've been reading the Josh Duggar thread, and so much of the stuff he was viewing originated in the Philippines. Just makes me wonder if there wasn't a filming going on, a stage that actually WAS a stage, for a scene involving JBR, and all the toys, underwear, and other details were original props for the intended scene. It might also explain why the Ramseys had to explain away the total lack of photos or video footage from their camera or recorder. Just wondering here. Perhaps they really were making money from their daughter, whose commodity value might have gone up after several televised beauty pageants. It is clear, regardless, imoo, that at least Patsy had already commoditized her daughter as an object for public viewing.