MI MI - JOHN NORMAN COLLINS Co-Ed Murders 1967-69, Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti

[Winward1]

"Just maybe there were more than one active serial killer (or a lot of individual killers) murdering people in the same time frame. Which is something I have suggested many times."

I'm sure you have. Like I said, you sound like spook. Rather than bring clarity to cases, you always seem wanting to muddy the waters, or tow the official line on a case, deflect and obfuscate even when it appears witnesses lied, changed their stories, police harassed and evidence came from questionable sources.

And there is a lot of solid stuff that indicates one guy (Thoresen) was the Michigan Murderer and there is other solid stuff, like by this time in history it has been learned that people with certain backgrounds (like Collins) do not become serial torture murderers.

Suspect descriptions in the Percy and Bricca cases sound like Thoresen. The murder weapon in the Percy case was a bayonet. The murder weapon in the Sims case was described as big, long bladed and double edged (sounds like a bayonet.) Police in the Bricca case, a week after Percy, quashed info on the autopsy getting out. A guy who wrote a 500 page book on the case came up with nothing on the autopsies almost 50 years later.

There is a reason they didn't say anything about the wounds or type of blade likely to have caused them and disclosed nothing from the autopsites. Those murders happened three days after news of the bayonet in the Percy case, an extremely rare weapon to be used in an attack on civilians, was all over the national news.

Also, the Percy and Bricca cases were linked to a red sports car no one knew the make of. Thoresen owned a red Ferrari, a rare car in the US in 1966. Like numerous Zodiac witnesses, witnesses in the Bricca and Sims cases told police of a suspect who had an unusual way of speaking. Thorsen had been a bad stutter and received speech therapy to try to overcome it.

So, there are numerous, unique reasons that reveal committed certain crimes (and unusual ones at that, like home invasion stabbings.)

 

[Richard]

"Just maybe there were more than one active serial killer (or a lot of individual killers) murdering people in the same time frame. Which is something I have suggested many times."

I'm sure you have. Like I said, you sound like spook. Rather than bring clarity to cases, you always seem wanting to muddy the waters, or tow the official line on a case, deflect and obfuscate even when it appears witnesses lied, changed their stories, police harassed and evidence came from questionable sources.

And there is a lot of solid stuff that indicates one guy (Thoresen) was the Michigan Murderer and there is other solid stuff, like by this time in history it has been learned that people with certain backgrounds (like Collins) do not become serial torture murderers.

Suspect descriptions in the Percy and Bricca cases sound like Thoresen. The murder weapon in the Percy case was a bayonet. The murder weapon in the Sims case was described as big, long bladed and double edged (sounds like a bayonet.) Police in the Bricca case, a week after Percy, quashed info on the autopsy getting out. A guy who wrote a 500 page book on the case came up with nothing on the autopsies almost 50 years later.

There is a reason they didn't say anything about the wounds or type of blade likely to have caused them and disclosed nothing from the autopsites. Those murders happened three days after news of the bayonet in the Percy case, an extremely rare weapon to be used in an attack on civilians, was all over the national news.

Also, the Percy and Bricca cases were linked to a red sports car no one knew the make of. Thoresen owned a red Ferrari, a rare car in the US in 1966. Like numerous Zodiac witnesses, witnesses in the Bricca and Sims cases told police of a suspect who had an unusual way of speaking. Thorsen had been a bad stutter and received speech therapy to try to overcome it.

So, there are numerous, unique reasons that reveal committed certain crimes (and unusual ones at that, like home invasion stabbings.)

You seem to be muddying the waters in this case by linking the Bricca, Sims, and Percy murders with the Michigan Coed Murders.

None of the Michigan murders involved a home invasion, and none of the victims were killed with a bayonet.

The young women murdered in and around Ypsilanti were all picked up outside of their residences, transported to some other place where they were murdered by a number of different means and weapons - shooting, stabbing, slashing, strangling with a cord and by hand, and beating with a hammer or blunt object (none by bayonet), and then their bodies transported to other, different isolated rural areas where they were dumped.

Using your logic, since the Michigan murders did not fit any of Thoresen's suspected MO as described in the Percy, Sims, and Bricca cases (Such as home invasion, use of a bayonet, leaving the bodies in place, etc.), he could NOT have been the killer of the Michigan women.

Of course, eliminating a potential suspect based on such logic is not really valid. Neither is eliminating Collins based on the fact that 99.9 percent (or whatever higher estimate) of young men his age and educational background do NOT go on to become serial killers. The fact is that some do.

Ted Bundy would be a rare example. Hardly anyone today would argue that he was a unique, evil type of killer - who could turn quickly from "nice guy, boy-next-door" to a frenzied killer. Back in the day, when he was first arrested many found it hard to believe that such a handsome, smart, accomplished kind of guy could do such things.

You are correct to state that a bayonet is a rare weapon to be used in a murder. However, it should be pointed out that back in the 1960's they were readily available for anywhere between one dollar and up to $4.50 at almost any Army-Navy surplus store. They came from many different countries, and most had blades between 10 and 16 inches in length. Bayonets all had very straight and thick blades which were made for thrusting (stabbing), rather than for slashing or cutting. Most were single edged blades which were NOT particularly sharp even on the bottom edge. Their overall length would make them difficult to conceal and carry.

The choice of a bayonet to commit a murder would be an odd one. It is not something normally carried or readily available at a murder site. And so, if one were to find similar murders committed with a bayonet, it WOULD tend to potentially link those cases together.

In the Zodiac case, the Lake Berryessa attack involved the use of a bayonet-like implement, but the detailed description of it would indicate that if it was a bayonet, it had been modified by the assailant in certain ways. No such weapon was used in any of the other known/suspected Zodiac attacks.

 

[Winward1]

You seem to be muddying the waters in this case by linking the Bricca, Sims, and Percy murders with the Michigan Coed Murders.

Using my logic? You're arguing that a guy who had not a single arrest for a violent act and who was convicted of one murder was a serial killer. And that he somehow, mysteriously and inexplicably snapped (not exactly a scenario that precedes murder #1) while at the same time pulling off six or so perfect crimes while cramming for college exams.

You're also arguing that he, an unlikely suspect because he had no arrests for violence, also completely implausibly picked up a random victim in the small town where he lived and drove her into the town square for everyone to see in broad daylight on a motorcycle before torturing her for hours and then killing her.

What was his MOTIVE? This guy was no more a killer, let alone serial killer, then you or I and you know it because the above conflicts in multiple ways with half of the threads in the serial killer sections of this site. It is ridiculous. (Like I said, it's no longer 1969.)

You also know it because of all the B.S. in his trial and investigation and I've introduced a violent maniac who looked just like him, owned the make and model motorcycle the suspect drove off with the victim on and was from the midwest. What's more there's been no pushback to my argument that not only was he a killer but he was Zodiac.

And it is perfectly logical that the motive for both the Michigan and Zodiac murders was to terrorize the populations of these respective areas with a series of brutal, random killings.

Meanwhile, you've brought up a bunch of cases that have no connection whatsoever to the Ypsilanti-Ann Arbor 67-69 victims (whereas the guy I mentioned who owned the Honda 350 is documented to have been suspected by the FBI for a bayonet murder.)

You also muddy the waters again by saying a bayonet is a rare weapon to use in the murder of a civilian (an understatement) and then get irrelevant (see muddying the waters) by saying they were commonly available. So what? What's the point of this (other than to muddy the waters?) Who said they were not?

 

[Richard]

As Collins himself tells it...

In 2013, evidence from the crime scenes and bodies of victims was tested for DNA. Results from two of those murders (Karen Sue Beineman and Alice Elizabeth Kalom) matched with Collins.

Prior to 2013, Collins had maintained his innocence. When confronted with the DNA results, he changed his story both to investigators in a prison interview and in two letters to his cousin, John Chapman of Canada.

Here is what he said (both verbally and in writing) in an effort to explain the DNA:

"Okay John, let me give you a little prelude to the 'STORY' that ended with me in here for the past 45 yrs. When I was first arrested my Mother asked me if I had done this and I told her 'NO' and she never asked me about it again. I wasn't until our LAST VISIT together that I told her the WHOLE STORY."

After her last prison visit, Chapman said, his aunt (Collins' mother) told the rest of the family her son confessed to killing Beineman, and after she died, left instructions in her will to give Collins nothing "for reasons that John is all too well aware of."

In the first letter to Chapman, Collins explains why he denied knowing Beineman. "One reason is because, in prison, snitches and rats are killed." Collins then offers a similar account, but in more detail, than he gave the detectives.

He writes he ran into Karen Sue Beineman, "she SMILED AT ME and WAVED her hand." He gave her a ride to the wig shop, and then she rode with Collins to his uncle's house to feed the dog.

But, the dog, Prince, had a "NOT SO FRIENDLY STREAK," and Collins warned Beineman he would bite her and to "STAY BACK."

Collins and Beineman chatted, and then they "started making out."

Collins writes he "got her shorts off, BUTT, no further," and he "did not have intercourse with her." She told him she had a boyfriend in Center Line. "We fooled around a little more and I ejaculated on her panties. She wasn't upset with me and we got dressed."

Then, he said, his roommate Arnold Davis showed up in a car.

Collins introduced Beineman and Davis and offered Beineman the option of riding home on his bike with him or going in the car with Davis. She chose the car. Then, Collins writes, he went to a bike shop to pay a bill, returned to his apartment, got a burger, and writes, "it gets a little FOGGY."

- note that Collins had previously used as part of his alibi for that day that he had spent the afternoon with Arnold Davis and Andrew Manuel.

After 10 p.m., he claims an upset-looking Davis said he "needed to talk to me."

Davis "told me that 'SOMETHING' happened at my uncle's house and that I needed to see it. I asked him what was wrong and he just said something like, 'Come and see.' " Collins writes he figured Davis just "made a mess" at the house.

At his uncle's house, they went downstairs. Davis pointed to the laundry room.

"When I turned on the light and looked around, I saw a naked woman," Collins writes. "I looked at her for a moment. I walked over to see if he was playing a JOKE on me and had a dummy there to scare me. We have been known to play those kinds of PRANKS on each other in the Fraternity."

But it wasn't a prank. It was Beineman.

Collins says he vomited in the laundry tub. He cleaned the sink and washed his face.

Davis "told me that he tried to make a move on her and she resisted," Collins writes. "He said he kept trying and she said she was going to call the police and he SNAPPED and choked her. He told me that he tried to get her into his car, BUTT, he couldn't because of the dog barking in the driveway."

Collins writes he knew he "couldn't leave her in my uncle's basement" because "he was a State Trooper for God's sake." Instead, they put the body in the trunk, rolled it into a ravine, and returned to the house to clean up. But Collins says Davis did something that would "lead right back to me."

Davis put the panties — which, from Collins' account, had his DNA on them — inside Beineman's body.

In the Oct. 27, 2013 letter, there was more.

Collins adds Davis admitted to going back to Beineman's body the night the sheriff's deputies had it and quietly tried to set a trap for the killer by replacing it with a mannequin, which matches police accounts of the failed sting.

Collins also writes that Davis had a "twin brother" with a car fitting the description of the vehicle a witness saw giving another victim, Joan Schell, a ride in. (Joan Elspeth Schell, age 20 whose body was found on 5 July 1968. She was last seen hitchhiking near the EMU student union on June 30, 1968. Days later, her body was found just outside Ann Arbor. Her throat had been stabbed and slashed, and her blue miniskirt was twisted around her neck.)

- Note that eyewitnesses stated that Joan Schell was last seen entering a red and black car with three men. Arnold Davis admitted to police that he, Collins and another unidentified man (the alleged car owner and driver) did, in fact, pick up a girl whose description fit that of Joan Shell, and that Collins drove off with her in his own car later.

Collins, in his letter, also says he met Alice Kalom at an Ann Arbor bar and made a date for Saturday morning to go for a motorcycle ride.

(Alice Elizabeth Kalom, age 21, whose body was found on Monday, 9 June 1969. She was last seen dancing at a party in Ann Arbor on Saturday night, June 7, 1969. Two days later, her body was found near North Territorial Road and U.S. 23. She was shot in the head and stabbed in the heart. Her clothes had been ripped off and scattered. Her shoes were missing.)

They met at 11 or 11:30 a.m., in front of the U-M student union, chatted and went to Burger King for a bite to eat. Next, they went to "a really PRETTY SPOT that was on the outskirts of campus," which "led to sex."

Kalom invited Collins to a party in Ann Arbor, which Collins claims he wasn't sure whether he would go.

Instead, Collins said he lent Davis, who was having car trouble, his keys — and he went to Ann Arbor.

When Davis returned home, he told Collins he went to a party and had an accident in his car. He spilled a drink on the seat, reached for something to clean it up and grabbed a cloth wrapped around the .22 caliber pistol that "we had been shooting the day before."

But, a "cop car pulled through the driveway and he got nervous."

Davis wrapped the gun in a blanket and tossed them both into a garbage bin.

After Kalom's body was found, Collins writes, Davis "admitted to killing her."

Collins also writes state police saw him in prison because they found his semen was inside Kalom.

Collins ends the letter saying it is the first time he had written down his account of events, and if "I had it to do all over again I'd probably take a different route. You can't change the past, BUTT, you can HOPE for a better future."

LINK:
'Handsome' EMU student was unlikely serial killer suspect. Letters, interviews reveal dark side.

 

[Winward1]

By the way, if anyone finds my postings on this case (or Zodiac) thought provoking, I'm having a little promo sale on my latest release, just 99 cents on Kindle and $6 and change (the lowest I am allowed to set it in print) for the next two days only (the Kindle price has already been reduced. Print will be whenever they get around to it but the change has been put through.) Thanks:

https://www.amazon.com/Zodiac-Mania.../ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

[Richard]

This sketch was made after the murder of Joan Schell, and before the murder of Karen Sue Beineman, and the subsequent arrest of John Norman Collins.



John Norman Collins at the time of his 1970 trial.

 

[Winward1]

"In 2013, evidence from the crime scenes and bodies of victims was tested for DNA. Results from two of those murders (Karen Sue Beineman and Alice Elizabeth Kalom) matched with Collins."

From the same state whose bang up investigators said DNA evidence proved four-year-old murdered Jane Mixer. Need I say more?

 

[Winward1]

That sketch of the murder suspect looks like it was done by the illustrators of a cartoon I used to watch called Clutch Cargo. Nice to see you seem to believe it was date stamped but by who? Cops when they weren't out harassing witnesses and making up stories about what happened in their basements?

Here's a guy he actually looks like, not only that but they were the same height and same build and he actually owned the motorcycle Mrs. Wig Shop said the suspect was on before she changed her story for predecessors of the guys who said a four-year-old murdered Jane Mixer and DNA proved it. But when that wouldn't stick they put another unlikely suspect in jail in an effort to keep buried the crimes of William Thoresen.

And this pic is an actual person suspected of murdering at least five people and who has all kinds of connections to the Coed Murders case and seemingly explains all of the shenanigans the prosecution was up to. Hmmm....

 

[Richard]

John Norman Collins did not suddenly one day "snap" and turn from being an angelic choir boy into a fiend who for the very first time in his life took the life of only one victim - Karen Sue Beineman - as you seem to think I have proposed. Read what I have written.

Collins' involvement with the Michigan Coed Murders began in the summer of 1967 when he murdered Mary Fleszar. He dumped her body near an abandoned farm and visited it on several occasions, moving the body around when he did. Whether he felt any sympathy or guilt or remorse is unknown. He did feel some level of curiosity, and perhaps power at being able to kill and get away with it.

He might have killed others between then and his next Ypsilanti victim, Joan Schell. Or maybe he tried to forget it and lead a normal college student life (well except for all the burglary stuff). Whether he killed Joan Schell on his own, or had help is the only question. Collins was the last person seen with her when she was alive. He intended to have sex with her and when she refused, he "snapped" and brutally killed her.

Collins was constantly trying to pick up girls for sex. This is well documented. And some of them relayed how he would get rough and violent at times - especially if angered in some way.

Unlike Thoresen - for whom there is not one bit of evidence that he was ever in Michigan - Collins was not only in Ypsilanti/Ann Arbor, Michigan at the time of all of the murders, but was actually the last person seen with two of the victims, and he admitted in writing that he had been with three of them.

Collins' mother supported him throughout the trial and visited him in prison, but even she was eventually convinced of his guilt when she stated that her son had confessed to her that he killed Karen Sue Beineman.

DNA has tied him to two murders and when confronted with it, he came up with a fantastic, convoluted tale of how he just happened to be framed by his room mate for them. If he was truly innocent, he would have continued to proclaim his innocence and would have challenged the validity of the DNA evidence. The problem was that he KNEW it was true and absolutely had to LIE about it. Thus the tall tale about Arne Davis being the "real" killer.

Collins did "snap" each time he killed. He would be an engaging, seemingly nice guy with girls in his efforts to pick them up, and then later suddenly change when angered. He even describes it in his story about Davis being the killer. What he describes as Davis "snapping" is really Collins telling his own experiences.

Arnold Davis was no innocent lamb either. By his own admission to police in July or August 1969, he had spoken with Collins about the coincidence of Joan Schell's murdered body being found right after Collins had been with her. He told of Collins warning him not to mention the "coincidence" to any one.

At the very least, Davis had a moral duty (at the time in 1968) to report his suspicion to police and he could have prevented the next five or six murders. It should also be considered that maybe Davis was more involved in the murders than he led police to believe later.

And what of the trip by Collins and Andrew Manuel to Salinas, California? Roxie Ann Phillips was murdered in the same manner as many of the Michigan women. Whether it was Collins, or Manuel, or both of them is the question. Since Collins was with Roxie the day before, my money is on him. She was strangled with a piece of her clothing and a piece of that same clothing was found in Collins' Oldsmobile when he returned to Michigan.

Murders of women in Michigan ceased while Collins and Manuel were in California, and almost immediately on their return, another girl is murdered. Big coincidence. And when police start asking questions of Collins, Manuel blows town. How much was he involved in the murders?

Back in Michigan in July 1969, Collins probably felt that he was invincible or just plain lucky. He hadn't been caught and so why not go out and pick up a girl at mid day? Who would suspect? Well, ultimately it was his down fall mistake.

Did police make mistakes in the investigation? Certainly. Were others involved in the murders? Probably. Was it a difficult, complicated legal trial? Yes. But Collins was convicted and sentenced to life in prison for the murder of Karen Sue Beineman. His appeals were considered and turned down.

Did Collins murder all seven of the Michigan Coed victims? Did he have help? Were other killers involved? Did he kill elsewhere in or outside of Michigan? All are valid questions.

One other "big coincidence" that is often mentioned is that once Collins was arrested, the killings stopped.

 

[Winward1]

Even without Thoresen’s obvious involvement, police misconduct to rig Collins investigation, and the prosecution getting their star witness to lie (all which are in the record and you have tried to explain away by saying things like we don’t know who the defense witness was because their name wasn’t made public, thereby implying that it didn’t happen which is as intellectually dishonest as it was criminally dishonest originally) nothing about the prosecution’s case today would make it to trial.

In sum it’s lauagable because everyone here knows serial killers don’t have backgrounds like Collins and you can’t conjure up a motive for him to be a killer as a result. Without a motive he doesn’t fit, doesn’t work. He’s eliminated.

And you lie again. The killings stopped before Collins was arrested. It’s clear they stopped because Thoresen nearly was pinched, fled back to CA and resumed killing there, adding the Zodiac letters to what obviously was the identical motive, terrorizing the citizens of a metro area by way of a series of random killings. He just added the letters for further publicity.

It's also clear that, for decades, researchers on sites like this have had a gnawing intuition that, between the long gaps in his activity in CA, Zodiac was elsewhere killing. This, plus fact that the Michigan cases happened before Zodiac emerged in letters, is further proof that the Michigan Coeds were killed by Zodiac.

There’s a ton of evidence of this. It’s going to take awhile for people to wrap their heads around it and the see 50 years of propaganda that are covering it up, but I’ve been blowing that up elsewhere. (And I haven’t even dropped all it’s obvious that Thoresen was responsible for.)

 

[Winward1]

Richard, everyone knows that Collins has always denied it and wouldn't enter a plea. Everyone knows serial killers admit what they do after being caught. These are more of the umpteen examples of the absurdity of your argument.

 

[Winward1]

"Arnold Davis was no innocent lamb either."

Really, in your desperation to make a credible argument are you going to continue to stoop to using guilt by association? Something tells me if your argument made sense or had anything behind it you wouldn't feel the need to do this.

"Roxie Ann Phillips was murdered in the same manner as many of the Michigan women."

And where was she murdered? In California, where all of the Zodiac killings, proven and suspected, took place and where Thoresen lived. Kind of funny how completely he explains not only these murders, but the weirdness (putting it kindly) of the Michigan investigation and the prosecution of Collins.

 

[Richard]

"Arnold Davis was no innocent lamb either."

Really, in your desperation to make a credible argument are you going to continue to stoop to using guilt by association? Something tells me if your argument made sense or had anything behind it you wouldn't feel the need to do this.

"Roxie Ann Phillips was murdered in the same manner as many of the Michigan women."

And where was she murdered? In California, where all of the Zodiac killings, proven and suspected, took place and where Thoresen lived. Kind of funny how completely he explains not only these murders, but the weirdness (putting it kindly) of the Michigan investigation and the prosecution of Collins.

Arnold Davis WAS closely associated with John Norman Collins. They were room mates and buddies. Whether or how much Davis was associated with the murders is the question I posed.

You, on the other hand, have proposed a scenario which would require Thoresen to have spent two years in and around Ypsilanti, Michigan, stepping in at the last minute to replace Collins (who was last seen with some of the victims) for the kill. Then, following Collins and Manuel all the way out to California to kill Roxie Ann Phillips (again immediately after Collins was with her), and then travel all the way back to Ypsilanti to kill Karen Sue Beineman, presumably to pin the blame on Collins? And all this during other California murders as Zodiac? When would Zodiac have had time to sew his costume and come up with his cipher codes?

 

[Winward1]

"You, on the other hand, have proposed a scenario which would require Thoresen to have spent two years in and around Ypsilanti, Michigan, stepping in at the last minute to replace Collins (who was last seen with some of the victims) for the kill."

Really? We're talking about six or seven murders that occurred over the course of two years. There would have been no time during this span for Thoresen to go elsewhere and it would have been impossible for him to do so and return? (The fact that he was from elsewhere explains why this went on for two years and no one was able to find a suitable suspect IN THE ENTIRE STATE who drove a blue Chevy, or owned a Honda 350.)

"Arnold Davis WAS closely associated with John Norman Collins."

Associated being the key word here as in guilt by association. Collins doesn't have to answer for anything Davis may have done or been involved in.

 

[Winward1]

What do you know about Thoresen? Have you read his wife's book? Have you read mine?

The guy was rich, hardly ever home, did not work the last eight or nine years of his life (owned a Ferrari among other cars) had a wife at home to pay the bills and maintained residences in California, Arizona and Illinois. He not only travelled constantly throughout the US, he travelled internationally. I've never heard of childhood misanthrope, one who was committed numerous times and had a lengthy record with the local police, who went on to such a future. Of course, his family being filthy rich was a big part of it.

That said, I've never heard of another killer which such resources, time and ability to move as well as, of course, kill. I also have it on good authority that when he died guy packs of men in suits showed up at the homes of his friends to conduct interviews.

What's more, I've interviewed one of his friends who has been perplexed for a half century as to why, when he was killed, his parents insisted that she, his friend, look after their grandchild for a period of six months while they ditched a subpoena to avoid testifying at their daughter in law's trail. They hid out, in of all places, Michigan.

This begs the question, why would the grandparents do this? By all accounts they loved and cared about the kid. So, who didn't want their grandson around his family and why at that time?

Now, if you knew what went on in his wife's trial, you would know it was even more weird than what when on at Collins' trial. I'm not saying it's not an incredible story. But it's all documented and clear that, what he did was on a whole other level of evil.

Like I already said, you're missing the overall.

 

[Richard]

...
"Arnold Davis WAS closely associated with John Norman Collins."

Associated being the key word here as in guilt by association. Collins doesn't have to answer for anything Davis may have done or been involved in.

Arnold Davis cooperated with police investigators and in return for immunity, he testified against Collins at his trial for the murder of Karen Sue Beineman. Because that was the only murder Collins was charged with, Davis was not allowed to testify in court regarding any other murders (or other crimes not charged) - because this might be cause for declaring a mistrial. He did, however provide other information to investigators which is contained in official police reports of the interviews.

Collins in 2013, wrote letters to his cousin blaming Davis for killing Karen, and also for killing Alice Elizabeth Kalom, as well as implying that Arnold's "twin brother" might have had something to do with Joan Schell's death. So, although Collins might not have to answer for anything Davis did, he certainly opened the door to questions.

Greg Fournier, who has researched and written about the Michigan Coed Murders, said this regarding Davis, and Manuel:

Quote: Whether either of these guys was directly involved with any of the Washtenaw County murders hasn't been firmly established. It is known that Arnie Davis and Andrew Manuel were involved with Collins in other illegal activities, and they prowled the Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti streets together.

The theory that Collins did not always act alone is persistent. Several people have come forward recently saying that they escaped the clutches of Collins and Manuel and lived to tell their stories. Sometimes, a simple ruse was all that was needed to lure a person in, but other people report struggling to escape from them.

As soon as they could after the Collins trial, Arnie Davis and Andy Manuel left Michigan. These men now live on opposite ends of the country. (Andrew Manuel has since died.) It should also be noted that after the arrest of John Norman Collins, the two year nightmare of sex-slayings of young women in Ypsilanti and Ann Arbor ended. But worries that Collins did not act alone and that his accomplices are still lurking in the area are persistent concerns held by many people today. Unquote.

LINK:

Fornology.com : Did John Norman Collins Work Alone?

 

[Richard]

...I've interviewed one of his friends who has been perplexed for a half century as to why, when he was killed, his parents insisted that she, his friend, look after their grandchild for a period of six months while they ditched a subpoena to avoid testifying at their daughter in law's trail. They hid out, in of all places, Michigan.

This begs the question, why would the grandparents do this? By all accounts they loved and cared about the kid. So, who didn't want their grandson around his family and why at that time?...

This is interesting regarding the child. Could it be that they were concerned about potential child abuse or trauma?

Something that I have noticed in several multiple murder home invasion cases of the era - and mentioned in this thread - were the murders of the Bricca, Sims, and Robison families. Each of those families included a young girl who was murdered. I have wondered if possibly it was the little girl in each case who was the killer's main target.

IF these murders were committed by the same person, perhaps the killer was something of a pedophile or had a hatred for children - particularly little girls.

In the Michigan Coed Murders, one victim stands out from others because of her young age. Dawn Basom was only 13 years old and in Junior High School when she was abducted and murdered on 16 April 1969.

At the time, investigators compared Dawn's murder very closely with that of Eileen Marie Adams (14), who had been tied and strangled in a very similar manner with old electrical wire. Eileen's body had been found 25 miles south of Ypsilanti in February 1968. In spite of similarities between the cases, Eileen's case was not officially listed among the "Coed" murders, and it remained cold and unsolved until 2008, when Robert Bowman was arrested, charged, and convicted of her murder in Ohio.

 

[Winward1]

I would say Davis wasn't allowed to testify regarding any of the other murders because they had nothing on Collins regarding those cases. We can disagree but as you know I think there's reason to believe they manufactured their case against Collins re: Beineman.

Thoresen's son was not overseen by a friend out of fear for the child's physical safety. Thoresen was dead by that time and there's no evidence that Thoresen's parents physically abused kids. (There was another set of grandparents, of course. They appeared to be in good health and attended Thoresen's wife's trail. So it is mysterious as to why none of these people stepped in to take care of their grandson. Actually, I don't think it's mysterious. I think the feds were engineering a sizable coverup, to say the least, and didn't want the kid, who was age 8, around to hear what was being planned.)

His wife did not like her in-laws and documented the broken bones and hearing damage she suffered at Thoresen's hands but did not fear he would hurt their son and apparently was correct in this regard. The woman who ended up caring for him is an intelligent person and knew all of these people and was at a loss to figure out why she was asked to care for the boy.

I think she may have had some ideas as to why, though, after speaking with me. I'm working my way to Fournier's book. At this point I wonder why he wrote it as a 400 page book about the case was long out. Given all of the propaganda surrounding Zodiac, the FBI's planted and implausible tale about jewel thieves killing Percy, shenanigans in recent years surrounding those who sought to independently investigate the Sims and Percy cases, I will be reading it skeptically.

 

[Winward1]

Regarding the case of Roxie Ann Phillips having similarities to the Michigan Coed cases and Thoresen living in California at that time and receiving no pushback now when argued to be Zodiac, you will find uncanny connections between certain murders and his movements around the country.

Zodiac, the Michigan Coed Murders and massacres like the Robison family in 1968 are to name but a few. Because of this, upon his death in June '70, there is reason to believe a substantial coverup began.

That said consider, when recalling the birth of her child, in early June, 1962, Thoresen's wife said she knew her husband had been going to Los Angeles "for many months." And that, two months prior to this, in early June, 1962, you have the Zodiac-like murder of cabbie Ray Davis in Oceanside, CA and then a string of murders (some double murders) and the Bates murder.

People get hung up on the letters and ciphers but what actually made Zodiac different? In three out of four attacks he chose to attack more than one person at a time, and in one of them it was under the guise of a robbery where the victims were tied up.

Thoresen moved to Arizona on April 8, 1960. Where from? Chicago. In my books I disclosed that he was a suspect in the dismemberment murder of Judith Mae Anderson in August, 1957, when he was about 17. Consider that I have his hometown police record. I know what was going on between him, his family and the cops in the mid fifties.

He had a particularly rocky time in 1955, when he was 15 or 16. Let me sum it up for you: He was pissed (and not in the English sense.) I know just what days, too. So what did Zodiac sometimes do? Attack multiple people (a really rare MO for random killings in those days.)

So what happened during this particularly rocky time for him in 1955 in Chicago? Three boys (Robert Peterson and the Schuessler brothers) were murdered, a triple murder. They were tied up. At least one was bludgeoned with fists and, it was presumed by some, at least one of them may have been whipped with a belt like some of the Michigan Coed victims.

When Thoresen met his wife in January, 1958, he had a broken hand. Ten bucks he broke it bludgeoning someone.

Like some of the Michigan Coed victims, the boys' bodies were left near a paved surface where they were soon discovered. Then, a little more than a year later, a similar double slaying near Chicago occurred, the Grimes sisters. According to a source, the sisters were last seen with a suspect who had a strange way of speaking (not unlike Zodiac.)

Thoresen struggled with a significant stuttering issue. There wasn't a lot to the description but it sounds not unlike Thoresen. Like numerous Michigan Coed Murder victims, the sister's bodies were left at the side of the road. The sister's mother was later tormented by a caller who knew details of the crimes no one but the killer would have known. Zodiac was known for using the phone as well.

He moved to Arizona in April, 1960. Three weeks earlier, however, three women were bludgeoned to death at Starved Rock State Park, an hour something's drive south of Chicago. Like at least one of the Michigan Coed Murders victims, a tree branch was used in the assault on the women. Like at Lake Berryessa and the Peterson-Schuessler murders (and, if I'm not mistaken, the Grimes sisters), the women had been tied up. It's not hard to imagine it was under the guise of a robbery.

Police set up a road block a day or two after the murders. A trucker, I believe it was, told them he saw the women talking with a guy and his description is a dead ringer for William Thoresen, down to his wavy, reddish-brown hair. What stood out to police at the time was the witnesses' description of the women.

After Thoresen moved away, these double and triple slayings in the Chicago area ceased.

Like with Collins, they put a guy in jail for the Starved Rock Murders. He always denied it and it seems there wasn't much to his conviction. As with Collins, it seemed he had not the motive nor the background of someone who would have killed the women.

He said it ruined his life. They just released him a few years ago. He was like 80. Earlier, they made up some story about not being able to test DNA in his case (sounds like the Zodiac letters.) Yeah, sure. Also, decades after the boy's murders, they convicted another guy for the Peterson-Schuessler case. He denied it. And that one sounds like total B.S. to me, nothing more than a story.

Consider this when you think of Collins and what all when on during his trial. Do I think four innocent guys went to jail for murders Thoresen committed? You betcha. Do I think Thoresen committed them all? You betcha. Do I think, after he was killed, this all was covered up (and many more murders it looks like after Thoresen committed?) You betcha. Have I seen evidence that the coverup has continued in recent years? There are examples of it in my latest book.

 

[Richard]

Here is a link to many news articles about these murders and associated events of the time.

LINK:
https://aadl.org/taxonomy/term/2804?page=1