Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

[Patrick Jane]

Based on what I'm reading in the Greek media, it sounds like the police are operating on the assumption that the perps had some intel that led them to target this family thinking that they had a cash horde. The perps were incredulous with the cash that they were given, and kept searching for more. The woman was killed because she was shouting, and she was shouting because the perps were threatening to kill their baby. MOO

 

[Patrick Jane]

So, key to the investigation, is who gave the perps this intel re: the cash horde.

Regarding this cash horde, supposedly the husband had a cash horde because he had recently purchased or acquired a plot of land and was planning to build.

cultural note: Making cash payments for building is very common in Greece.

MOO

 

[Patrick Jane]

Greek media is reporting that there may be a lead via CCTV footage:

Γλυκά Νερά: Νέα στοιχεία-σοκ για το άγριο έγκλημα - Η κατάθεση του συζύγου | Ειδήσεις - νέα - Το Βήμα Online

Σύμφωνα με όσα μεταδίδονται οι αρχές έχουν στα χέρια τους βίντεο με έναν ύποπτο άνδρα, ο οποίος στις 05:30 τα ξημερώματα της Τρίτης βρίσκεται έξω από το σπίτι της οικογένειας της 20χρονης.

According to what's been broadcast/communicated, the authorities have in their hands a video of a suspicious man, who at 5:30 in the morning on Tuesday was outside the home of the family (of the 20 year old victim).

(my translation only)

excerpt from the Vima article I quoted earlier

άρπαξαν 15.000 ευρώ μετρητά

They grabbed/stole 15,000 euro in cash

(my translation only)

This 15,000 euro in cash is the cash horde I am referring to in my previous posts.

 

[Patrick Jane]

So imagine you're a perp who's been told that there's a giant cash horde. 100,000 euros? 200,000 euros? And yet the husband gives you "only" 15,000 euros. You'd be enraged that they're hiding the real loot that you'd been told about. That's the scenario that the Greek police are presenting to the Greek media right now. MOO

 

[Sherlockhames]

So imagine you're a perp who's been told that there's a giant cash horde. 100,000 euros? 200,000 euros? And yet the husband gives you "only" 15,000 euros. You'd be enraged that they're hiding the real loot that you'd been told about. That's the scenario that the Greek police are presenting to the Greek media right now. MOO

This sounds plausible.

Not convinced about sexual assault theories - seems like burglary gone awry with a female victim much less pliant than expected.

It sounds like Caroline was experienced in martial arts and perhaps was putting up way more of a fight than they expected when attacked under such terrifying circumstances (entirely understandably given the threats to her child and the fact her husband was tied up). The fact there were supposedly DNA deposits under her nails suggests she was absolutely fighting for her life and was not going quietly. So this perhaps led them to silence her.

Horrific, awful, unspeakable.

But perhaps less suspicious than some sleuthers on here were suggesting earlier. Had my own initial doubts, but sleeping in separate room understandable with new baby if husband needed sleep (perhaps air con only in roof so better temperature up there?), cash payments for building work understandable, Caroline woken up terrified but then martial arts experience, combined with threats to baby combined with threats to own life and I am not surprised she fought like hell but burglars weren’t expecting this level of defence (I saw mention of husband tied up with rope but Caroline tied up with her own clothes - perhaps they only came prepared with 1 rope expecting to be able to subdue her. But she was not going to be subdue - lioness defending cub comes to mind - and they tried to silence her, with tragic consequences.

 

[Vail]

This is a really brutal crime; I hope the killers are found soon.
Is it just me who is conscious of the age gap? The man was 29 when they met and Caroline was 16 (they apparently met in 2017; depending on when they met, she may have been 15). Unsure if this might have anything to do with her death OFC.

This is not unusual in Europe and is not seen the sme way as americans see it. Age of consent in Greece and many european countries is 15 and the half-your-age+7 rule is ignored often. 18 yr old marrying to 30yr old isn't too terrible if they are in love and get on well, perhaps it was for the child and they sleep separately because it is an arrangement.

Anyway this is a horrific crime and I feel horrible for the husband. I refuse to cast shade on him until the media gives me a reason to. He just went through an absolute nightmare and will never get over it.

 

[Mrs Marple]

^ l do agree with this, their age is irrelevant unless there is evidence otherwise. I'm sure they have heard comments about it many times.

 

[dotr]

Did killers of British mother know she had £10k in house? | Daily Mail Online
''Did killers of British mother know she had £10k in house? Couple had cash for renovations stashed in a Monopoly box at Athens home as police draw up a 'red list' of violent criminals to probe over murder

• Burglars who killed Caroline Crouch may have known she had £10,000 in home
• Mother tortured and strangled in front of baby while thieves tied up husband
• Killers made off with £20,000 of jewellery and around £10,000 in bank notes ''

''Mr Anagnostopoulos revealed the location of the cash – in a Monopoly box – while being threatened by the robbers who spoke in broken Greek.

The 33-year-old said in an emotional statement: 'I heard my wife screaming for help tied to the bed while I was tied to the floor.

'We screamed not to be hurt. We begged the thieves not to harm us. We told them where the money was and asked them to leave us alone.''

'The baby was crying, my wife was crying and someone or some people were looking to find more money and jewellery. Suddenly they left the room and I couldn't hear my wife's voice any more.'

Detectives have drawn up a 'red list' of violent criminals who are being investigated for links to the appalling crime. The source said it was 'one of the most heinous' offences they had seen.

Miss Crouch, born to a British father and Filipino mother, was suffocated with a pair of trousers, and a piece of fabric was found inside her mouth. ''

 

[Mrs Marple]

It's so sadistic. Bloody awful. I hope the babe forgets.

 

[dormouse]

This is not unusual in Europe and is not seen the sme way as americans see it. Age of consent in Greece and many european countries is 15 and the half-your-age+7 rule is ignored often. 18 yr old marrying to 30yr old isn't too terrible if they are in love and get on well, perhaps it was for the child and they sleep separately because it is an arrangement.

Anyway this is a horrific crime and I feel horrible for the husband. I refuse to cast shade on him until the media gives me a reason to. He just went through an absolute nightmare and will never get over it.

I disagree - this IS unusual in Europe. My jaw dropped when I realised she was 15/16 when they got together and he was going on 30. I dated a 21-year-old when I was 16 and the disapproval played a part in splitting us up.

 

[Cryptic]

I disagree - this IS unusual in Europe. My jaw dropped when I realised she was 15/16 when they got together and he was going on 30.

This is not unusual in Europe and is not seen the sme way as americans see it. Age of consent in Greece and many european countries is 15 and the half-your-age+7 rule is ignored often.

I think dormouse could right in that having a liberal attitude regarding the age of consensual sex does not necessarily mean that marriages between 16 and thirty year olds are common. The factor in that the marriage occurred recently and apparently in Athens.

The marriage did not occur say, two generations ago in the back mountains of Crete or the back mountains of the say, the backwoods of the Pindus range where Greek subgroups and ethnic minorities had an active clan based culture.

Marriages in remote areas could probably occur young and may of had motivations such as settling a dispute or unifying two families. My guess, however, is that these young marriages of these types and simply out of love for an older man are pretty much gone- even in remote areas of Greece, Albania and southern Italy.

 

[Cryptic]

So imagine you're a perp who's been told that there's a giant cash horde. 100,000 euros? 200,000 euros? And yet the husband gives you "only" 15,000 euros. You'd be enraged that they're hiding the real loot that you'd been told about. That's the scenario that the Greek police are presenting to the Greek media right now. MOO

That is a good point.

Then factor in that fi the perps were from a lesser developed country and not very bright, they may have little concept of money beyond their immediate needs and not understand what size of hoard is reasonable and thus possible and what size is just not.

 

[dotr]

Young British woman strangled to death in front of child during Athens burglary
Zoe Tidman
''Mr Hasiotis said that findings from the investigation showed that Crouch, an avid athlete and kick boxer, initially moved to resist her attackers.

An autopsy report from a state coroner on Wednesday said “no struggle appeared have ensued between the victim and her assailants. “There were no bruises or signs that she may have struggled with them.”


''Senior investigators contacted on Wednesday said they were gathering and examining forensic evidence, including DNA samples taken from the hands of the young wife and husband, to explore potential leads.''

“The husband,” a senior police official said, “has already testified twice. He is not a suspect. But everything is open at this point. We have to be thorough.”

The official refused to elaborate.''

 

[Patrick Jane]

Γλυκά Νερά: Σοκάρει το άγριο έγκλημα – Τι έδειξε η ιατροδικαστική έρευνα της 20χρονης, πού στρέφονται οι Αρχές | MEGA TV

Οι δύο ομάδες της Ελληνικής Αστυνομίας που έχουν αναλάβει την εξιχνίαση του απίστευτου εγκλήματος έχουν στην κατοχή τους αποτυπώματα και στοιχεία από τον DNA των δραστών.

The two units* of the Greek Police that have undertaken the investigation of the incredible crime have in their possession (finger)prints** and DNA evidence of the perpetrators (of the crime).

*two units: this refers to the homicide and burglary (& robbery) units working together on this case
**prints: the Greek word used here refers to just prints, but doesn't explicitly say "finger" prints. I've translated it as (finger) prints to give you the best sense of the contextual meaning.

(my translation only)

 

[Eloise]

I disagree - this IS unusual in Europe. My jaw dropped when I realised she was 15/16 when they got together and he was going on 30. I dated a 21-year-old when I was 16 and the disapproval played a part in splitting us up.

Agreed, it's not just Americans who dislike large age gaps when the younger of the couple is very young, especially under 18 when they get together! As someone who was groomed at the age of 18, but who didn't realise it was grooming until much later (and it was at a time when it was more 'acceptable'), there is always a power imbalance even if it's legal. Obviously the impact of age differences means much less later on, but especially when you're talking about a teenager I don't think it's ever right.

I have no qualms with age of consent being 16 but that should only be for relationships with other teens, not full grown adults who should know better. And just because something has 'always been done' a certain way, doesn't mean it isn't time for it to stop. A lot of women were married off young for reasons beyond their control - not because they wanted to be.

Anyway... I hope the right people are held accountable for this horrific crime, whoever they might be.

 

[PhoebeTries]

Young British woman strangled to death in front of child during Athens burglary
Zoe Tidman
''Mr Hasiotis said that findings from the investigation showed that Crouch, an avid athlete and kick boxer, initially moved to resist her attackers.

An autopsy report from a state coroner on Wednesday said “no struggle appeared have ensued between the victim and her assailants. “There were no bruises or signs that she may have struggled with them.”


''Senior investigators contacted on Wednesday said they were gathering and examining forensic evidence, including DNA samples taken from the hands of the young wife and husband, to explore potential leads.''

“The husband,” a senior police official said, “has already testified twice. He is not a suspect. But everything is open at this point. We have to be thorough.”

The official refused to elaborate.''

BBM
No signs of a struggle on her body? But she had DNA under her nails and was a kickboxer? So the DNA got under her nails as she gently stroked her assailant's face or what? They managed to put her clothes around her neck to strangle her
and she did nothing? The reporting makes no sense. It's impossible she didn't fight. JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Γλυκά Νερά: Σοκάρει το άγριο έγκλημα – Τι έδειξε η ιατροδικαστική έρευνα της 20χρονης, πού στρέφονται οι Αρχές | MEGA TV

Οι δύο ομάδες της Ελληνικής Αστυνομίας που έχουν αναλάβει την εξιχνίαση του απίστευτου εγκλήματος έχουν στην κατοχή τους αποτυπώματα και στοιχεία από τον DNA των δραστών.

The two units* of the Greek Police that have undertaken the investigation of the incredible crime have in their possession (finger)prints** and DNA evidence of the perpetrators (of the crime).

*two units: this refers to the homicide and burglary (& robbery) units working together on this case
**prints: the Greek word used here refers to just prints, but doesn't explicitly say "finger" prints. I've translated it as (finger) prints to give you the best sense of the contextual meaning.

(my translation only)

In your experience, is it common in Greece to refer to police and reporters as children, as the husband did in his short interview with reporters?

Is there an equivalent in the English language?

bottom video in this article

Γλυκά Νερά / Σε εξέλιξη οι έρευνες της αστυνομίας - Οι πρώτες δηλώσεις του 32χρονου

 

[Tortoise]

BBM
No signs of a struggle on her body? But she had DNA under her nails and was a kickboxer? So the DNA got under her nails as she gently stroked her assailant's face or what? They managed to put her clothes around her neck to strangle her
and she did nothing? The reporting makes no sense. It's impossible she didn't fight. JMO

Yes now I'm wondering if that first sentence, [she] "initially moved to resist her attackers" means that she wasn't found in an expected sleeping position, and had tried to move off the bed before she was attacked. Otherwise it makes no sense with the "no struggle" remarks.

 

[Legally Bland]

Police who arrived at the couple's home said they found the girl's lifeless body tied to a pole and her 11-month-old baby crying and hitting his mother with his hands trying to wake her.

As soon as the police entered the room, they saw the girl frowning, pale and her legs were white, as a result of which they realized that she was dead.

Her husband was handcuffed, with insulating tape in his mouth and eyes. At some stages it is estimated that he temporarily lost consciousness and could not remember. He also testified to the police.

Γλυκά Νερά: Συγκλονίζουν τα στοιχεία του εγκλήματος – Το προφίλ των δραστών | MEGA TV

(Google translate)

 

[PhoebeTries]

In my earlier post I described her being strangled with her clothes around her neck. I have since read she was found with clothing in her mouth, not around her neck. I can't edit that post so thought I should clarify in a new one.
I think technically this would be suffocation, not strangulation?

Any thoughts on the reporting baby was on the floor with mom's body instead of in daddy's arms? I'm stepping away from any press articles for a bit until they get their reports to make more sense instead of putting things out there for clicks. MOO.