Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

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I think it is going to be very hard for anyone to interpret the second sketch as a 50 year old man.
I also think it’s going to be very hard to see that ‘younger BG’ sketch as the person in Libby’s phone footage. I know some do, but a vast amount of people, it seems, just can’t connect the two.
 
In the US it does happen - in legal terms it's called a "pure cold hit." The legal problem with such cases is that the DNA "match" is never a 100% match, it's a statistical statement called a random match probability - such as, there's a "1 in 1.1 million chance that this sampling of genetic material at this number of locations in the genome could match a random, totally innocent person." And sometimes that random match probability is much weaker, like "1 in 450." Some pure cold hit suspects have ended up being exonerated because it was discovered - either in the investigatory stage or on appeal - that the cold hit was coincidental or erroneous. And this is actually only going to happen much more often, because criminal DNA databases like CODIS are getting larger by the day (due to laws about taking DNA from felony arrestees and other detained people) so there's ever larger likelihood that coincidental matches will occur. This article does a great job explaining this: The Dark Side of DNA Databases

And then there's this: DNA's Dirty Little Secret - Type Investigations

That article talks about the case of John Puckett. In 1972 a nurse was raped and murdered in San Francisco. The initial suspect was a man named Robert Baker, who had escaped from an asylum a month prior, had raped a woman less than a quarter-mile from the murder victim's home, and who, when questioned, had a parking ticket in his van that had blood on it matching the nurse's blood type. But the case ended up going cold until DNA technology caught up. In 2004 authorities re-opened that case and compared the deteriorated sample of DNA found on the victim's body to California's state database version of CODIS (which contained over 300,000 DNA profiles) and found one cold hit match, to a then-71 year old man named John Puckett, who shared 9 alleles with the DNA profile found on the victim's body. At his trial, the primary evidence against him was the DNA profile match - that a person picked at random would have a 1 in 1.1 million chance of matching the DNA found (as well as the fact that he had lived in the general Bay Area around the time of the murder and had a previous sexual assault conviction). The judge allowed the jury to hear the defense's argument that other than the cold hit, there was really no other evidence against John Puckett, but did not allow the defense to tell the jury that the chance of sharing 9 alleles is not uncommon and that in fact there were probably about 40 other people in California who matched the sample as exactly as he did. John Puckett was convicted of this crime and appealed.

The bottom line, and why all of this relates to Delphi, is this:
1. If the Delphi investigators have a deteriorated or partial sample, OR
2. If it is a sample with mixed contributors (including the victim)
THEN even a partial match in a DNA database may not be very strong evidence because it could "include" quite a lot of innocent people.

ETA: If I had to guess, I'd say the Delphi investigators have #2 - a mixed sample that contains, say, Libby's DNA, Kelsi's DNA, and the (perhaps partial) DNA of an unknown male contributor. So LE doesn't know if the unknown profile they've isolated belongs to the killer or even if they've isolated it correctly.


It astounds me that in these days and ages in 2021 that ANY jury would convict on a 1 in 450 chance! Much less a prosecutor that would bring such forward.

To me, that is ridiculous.

As to mixed samples, if not degraded... the entire mixed DNA moves differently in one profile from the other, and is separated in a mixed sample. They are not "confused". This is standard since the late 80's MOO. (Think electrophoresis as to baseline)

MOO
 
As to mixed samples, if not degraded... the entire mixed DNA moves differently in one profile from the other, and is separated in a mixed sample. They are not "confused". This is standard since the late 80's MOO. (Think electrophoresis as to baseline)

MOO

I will have to respectfully disagree with this. Mixed samples remain problematic even to this day in forensic work; in fact, as sensitivity of DNA testing increases, it has become even more so IMO.

If there is plenty of non-degraded contributor DNA and only two profiles, then capillary electrophoresis MAY give you straightforward results. However, as the technical ability to detect even very small quantities of DNA in a sample has increased over time, the process is now often much less straightforward and requires more complex next generation sequencing.

The genetic science that supports my conclusion is laid out well in this article: DNA Mixtures: A Forensic Science Explainer

I love this article because it explains very clearly the uncertainties that forensic scientists would encounter in analyzing crime scene DNA. You can clearly see how prosecutors go to trial with probabilities and likelihood ratios, NOT certainties.

So for anyone who was scratching their head when Tobe Leazenby said that they have DNA but don't know if it's the offender's DNA - read this article. It explains it.
 
I would like to know, if all the local "rumors", which we don't know of, are now regarding JBC more true and possible than before. Only an Delphi insider would know .....

Then I would also like to know, if JBC fits a lot of the profile, police mentioned re perp's behavior on Febr 13th and after the crime. Atm I can't find the list (missing appointments, missing work, sleeping problems, drinking more, shaving facial hair, getting a new look, ....).

ETA: I just found one version of the list.
<mod edit to link: https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/delphi-indiana-what-to-look-for-in-a-delphi-suspect >

“Did an individual travel unexpectedly?” Massa said. “Did they change their appearance? Did they shave their beard, cut their hair, or change the color of their hair? Did they change the way they dress?”

Even behavioral changes that occurred shortly after February 13, 2017:
  • Someone who developed a different sleep pattern
  • Started abusing drugs or alcohol
  • Has become anxious or irritable
  • Someone who has followed this case to an extreme
  • Someone who has had ongoing conversations about where they were Feb. 13
  • Someone who has visited the location where the girls were murdered
  • Someone who has taken photographs in the area of the trail and bridge
Police say don’t ever feel bad about reporting odd behavior.

Offering a personal opinion:
I don’t think abusing alcohol, becoming irritable, etc. would be new behaviors for JBC based on what has been released about his history.
I get the impression JBC is very impulsive and disorganized (JMO). I don’t exactly get that impression of the Delphi suspect based on what little we do know.

Following the case to extremes or regularly stating where they were on the day of the murders seem to be traits of someone a bit more organized or of an analyzing nature. JMO- someone detail oriented, consistently evaluating things, and thinking a step ahead to have I’s dotted and T’s crossed. I could be very very wrong, but those traits don’t stand out for me with JBC.

It could make sense why Carter stated: “We believe you are hiding in plain sight,” Carter said. “For more than two years…. We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know – that one day, you will.”

Statement could mean (JMO) the perp could be analyzing and trying to stay ahead of any possible slip ups, agonizing over a possible mistake, etc.

https://www.wrtv.com/delphi-murders-isp-say-new-audio-video-and-sketch-shows-libby-abbys-killer

ALL PERSONAL opinion...
 
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I live half way around the world from where this crime happened. Have connections to Indiana and have been there several times, not in the Delphi area though.
Today, a picture of BG showed up in my Facebook feed from a local true crime podcast, where someone is stating that the police possibly have caught the Delphi killer, and another comment from someone with a picture of JBC stating the the police have arrested a suspect in the case.
So I Think I get it when the family constantly is asking people not to jump to conclusions, as these kind of news have now travelled all the way to my small country far from Indiana.
 
I live half way around the world from where this crime happened. Have connections to Indiana and have been there several times, not in the Delphi area though.
Today, a picture of BG showed up in my Facebook feed from a local true crime podcast, where someone is stating that the police possibly have caught the Delphi killer, and another comment from someone with a picture of JBC stating the the police have arrested a suspect in the case.
So I Think I get it when the family constantly is asking people not to jump to conclusions, as these kind of news have now travelled all the way to my small country far from Indiana.

if you research the zodiac.. you will get the picture of Earl Van Best Jr. as Z...this is how the internet deals with true crime
 
Offering a personal opinion:
I don’t think abusing alcohol, becoming irritable, etc. would be new behaviors for JBC based on what has been released about his history.
I get the impression JBC is very impulsive and disorganized (JMO). I don’t exactly get that impression of the Delphi suspect based on what little we do know.

Following the case to an extreme, repeatedly saying where they were on Feb 13, etc., seem to be traits of someone a bit more organized or of an analyzing nature. JMO- someone detail oriented, possibly regularly circling back to evaluate things, and thinking a step ahead. I could be very very wrong, but those traits don’t stand out for me with JBC.

ALL PERSONAL opinion...
The concerns I have with the list of things to look for is - what if BG lived alone and didn't socialize much? There might not be anyone to notice a change and call in a tip.

Regarding JBC, I agree he is disorganized in life and can't seem to keep a relationship or even a place to stay, for example. But it's possible for people to have certain aspects of life that are controled. In fact, they might take comfort or even pride in that side of themselves. Sort of like guys who might be floundering in their work life or their home needs maintenance, but they have meticiously-cared for cars or muscles, etc.. Maybe the one thing that JBC can do competently is commit crimes against children (until he deviated from his usual plan and attacked in his own home with a neighbor).

jmo
 
The concerns I have with the list of things to look for is - what if BG lived alone and didn't socialize much? There might not be anyone to notice a change and call in a tip.

Regarding JBC, I agree he is disorganized in life and can't seem to keep a relationship or even a place to stay, for example. But it's possible for people to have certain aspects of life that are controled. In fact, they might take comfort or even pride in that side of themselves. Sort of like guys who might be floundering in their work life or their home needs maintenance, but they have meticiously-cared for cars or muscles, etc.. Maybe the one thing that JBC can do competently is commit crimes against children (until he deviated from his usual plan and attacked in his own home with a neighbor).

jmo

Good points on the possibility of being unorganized in one area and not in another.

I don't know that we know if he deviated from a usual plan. His historical crimes (that we do know of) seem impulsive like snap decisions of violence or alcohol related violations and not really thought into a "plan". He doesn't come off to be one that thinks through consequences or takes steps to mitigate detection for his criminal actions. Again- just a personal opinion since we don't know much more than what is documented in his criminal past or his social media behaviors.
 
Good points on the possibility of being unorganized in one area and not in another.

I don't know that we know if he deviated from a usual plan. His historical crimes (that we do know of) seem impulsive like snap decisions of violence or alcohol related violations and not really thought into a "plan". He doesn't come off to be one that thinks through consequences and the avoidance of mitigating detection for his criminal actions. Again- just a personal opinion since we don't know much more than what is documented in his criminal past or his social media behaviors.
I agree 100% that he doesn't think things through to consquence. In fact, I don't even think he cares about consequences. Nothing seems to deter him - he's been in the legal system essentially constantly. If he's BG, he's been hiding in plain sight right there in the courtroom and prison cell.

jmo
 
I agree 100% that he doesn't think things through to consquence. In fact, I don't even think he cares about consequences. Nothing seems to deter him - he's been in the legal system essentially constantly. If he's BG, he's been hiding in plain sight right there in the courtroom and prison cell.

jmo

well seems like a lot of stuff goes on every time he is out of prison.. he continues to offend.. I'm not talking about the murders , attempted murders , possible other crimes..but merely the crimes that appear on his record dating all the way back to his childhood practically. Hard core
maybe even criminally insane. seriously..by this I mean a danger at all times as he is capable of severe deadly violence.

mOO
 
well seems like a lot of stuff goes on every time he is out of prison.. he continues to offend.. I'm not talking about the murders , attempted murders , possible other crimes..but merely the crimes that appear on his record dating all the way back to his childhood practically. Hard core
maybe even criminally insane. seriously..by this I mean a danger at all times as he is capable of severe deadly violence.

mOO
Yes, I agree. He wasn't going to stop committing crimes until he was stopped. He'll likely still to commit crimes even in prison (assault, for example). He's got nothing to lose now so I can't see him necessarily settling down.

To me, there's nothing so far that I've seen that rules JBC out as BG. The only doubts that creep in my mind are because Kelsi is taking such a cautious and dubious stance.

jmo
 
My gut or women's intuition. Many long-time posters in this thread are familiar with my personal story. My eight year old daughter was abducted and murdered over 20 years ago. Her case was "solved" earlier this year. I took a six month vacation from WS and social media because reading the cases I follow became too difficult.

Like Abby and Libby, my daughter was found in a rural area. When the crime scene is in the outdoors, the area becomes very large and difficult to investigate. Especially when there are volunteer searchers involved. Spit, urine, snot, gum wrappers, pieces of paper, leaves, sticks/branches, grass, etc. must all be collected. Finding the DNA of the person responsible is not always an easy task. This is one reason LE is not always quick to confirm someone is a suspect. It's entirely possible that DNA found at a crime scene is not "pure" (mixed with other bodily fluid, touched by someone not involved, touch DNA, a small amount, etc.).

Sometimes you have to read between the lines to understand what LE says publicly. My belief is that LE has a very short list of suspects. The DNA collected may be explained away (volunteer searcher, LE, medical personnel, family, etc). This puts LE in a position where they have no way of making an arrest without a tip or confession. They need proof that the POI was at MHB on February 13th. They need someone to reveal they are providing a false alibi. They need someone who noticed something unusual about a person they know after the murders. They need someone to provide that one tip they have been waiting for. I can almost guarantee you that JBC has already been interviewed about Abby and Libby since his arrest. His DNA has already been collected. LE has some way to rule a suspect out (think DN, PE , RL, etc.), we just don't know by what method.

Again; I would love to be wrong. This case is very near and dear to me. My heart just tells me it's not him. :(
@JDough I have nothing to offer you except virtual hugs and <3 from one mother to another. Thank you for being here and sharing your story and insight with us.
 
The only doubts that creep in my mind are because Kelsi is taking such a cautious and dubious stance.
I think what’s fueling Kelsi’s extreme caution/tentative stance is:

1. She’s had her hopes dashed too often in the past with POIs.

2. She was receiving messages like, Congratulations, the Delphi killer is caught and I can’t blame her for being extremely irritated.
 
Yes, I agree. He wasn't going to stop committing crimes until he was stopped. He'll likely still to commit crimes even in prison (assault, for example). He's got nothing to lose now so I can't see him necessarily settling down.

To me, there's nothing so far that I've seen that rules JBC out as BG. The only doubts that creep in my mind are because Kelsi is taking such a cautious and dubious stance.

jmo

and thus leaving no room for a rush to judgement defense. mOO
 
I may be the odd woman out, but I do not believe JBC is BG. I haven't since the very first post on social media indicating "he looks like BG- it must be him." We can justify just about anyone looking like him. We can justify just about anyone has the traits we believe BG has. Unfortunately, there are many horrible individuals out there, and JBC is one of them. But I don't believe he is BG. I hope I'm wrong.
If you're the odd woman out, then I'm the odd man out. I don't believe it is JBC either. That said, if I'm wrong, feel free to remind me that I was wrong. Don't expect an immediate response though as I might be too busy dancing, celebrating and drinking copious amounts of adult beverages.:p
 
if you research the zodiac.. you will get the picture of Earl Van Best Jr. as Z...this is how the internet deals with true crime
I just googled zodiac killer and the first few hits claim he’s a current Texas senator who was born in 1970. That’s a few years after the first murder and he would’ve been only a toddler at the last suspected murder. No wonder Kelsi is so frustrated, it’s agonizing to think someone with a truly valid tip might not report it thinking BG has definitely been caught.
 
My gut or women's intuition. Many long-time posters in this thread are familiar with my personal story. My eight year old daughter was abducted and murdered over 20 years ago. Her case was "solved" earlier this year. I took a six month vacation from WS and social media because reading the cases I follow became too difficult.

Like Abby and Libby, my daughter was found in a rural area. When the crime scene is in the outdoors, the area becomes very large and difficult to investigate. Especially when there are volunteer searchers involved. Spit, urine, snot, gum wrappers, pieces of paper, leaves, sticks/branches, grass, etc. must all be collected. Finding the DNA of the person responsible is not always an easy task. This is one reason LE is not always quick to confirm someone is a suspect. It's entirely possible that DNA found at a crime scene is not "pure" (mixed with other bodily fluid, touched by someone not involved, touch DNA, a small amount, etc.).

Sometimes you have to read between the lines to understand what LE says publicly. My belief is that LE has a very short list of suspects. The DNA collected may be explained away (volunteer searcher, LE, medical personnel, family, etc). This puts LE in a position where they have no way of making an arrest without a tip or confession. They need proof that the POI was at MHB on February 13th. They need someone to reveal they are providing a false alibi. They need someone who noticed something unusual about a person they know after the murders. They need someone to provide that one tip they have been waiting for. I can almost guarantee you that JBC has already been interviewed about Abby and Libby since his arrest. His DNA has already been collected. LE has some way to rule a suspect out (think DN, PE , RL, etc.), we just don't know by what method.

Again; I would love to be wrong. This case is very near and dear to me. My heart just tells me it's not him. :(

I am so happy to hear your case was solved. My heart goes out to you for the agony that you have been through for twenty years. May your little angel be constantly watching over you.

I hope the deaths of Abby and Libby are solved shortly. Even four years seems like a long time. We have all been waiting for an arrest and that today is the day. There are so many people following this case just waiting, waiting.
 
I will have to respectfully disagree with this. Mixed samples remain problematic even to this day in forensic work; in fact, as sensitivity of DNA testing increases, it has become even more so IMO.

If there is plenty of non-degraded contributor DNA and only two profiles, then capillary electrophoresis MAY give you straightforward results. However, as the technical ability to detect even very small quantities of DNA in a sample has increased over time, the process is now often much less straightforward and requires more complex next generation sequencing.

The genetic science that supports my conclusion is laid out well in this article: DNA Mixtures: A Forensic Science Explainer

I love this article because it explains very clearly the uncertainties that forensic scientists would encounter in analyzing crime scene DNA. You can clearly see how prosecutors go to trial with probabilities and likelihood ratios, NOT certainties.

So for anyone who was scratching their head when Tobe Leazenby said that they have DNA but don't know if it's the offender's DNA - read this article. It explains it.


Thanks so much for the article. I was focused on a semen sample and totally blanked as to being a touch DNA etc. Appreciate this as these days, it's totally different with touch DNA and other mixed samples. Brain lapse on my part and this article is on target to correct and change my assumptions.
 
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